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What Would You Errata? (in Guild)


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23 hours ago, DuBlanck said:

Reading @Gaston's batreps has been terribly frustrating as someone only a few games into Dashel - I just never seem to have the Masks and Severes in my hands at the same time to get much out of the boss, so I'm mostly struggling to get work out of the summoning. We also play with a shedload of Concealing and big chunky LoS-blockers, so the Rifleman strats don't work terribly well either. I definitely need to get a lot more work in with the Mounted Guard before I throw my otys out of the pram though.

I am sorry that it is so frustrating. The Lawyer has been useful for card draw, specifically when I don't have that masks in hand, FWIW. My Plan A is actually to have Dashel walk or focus, shoot and stone a Drop It, and summon off of that. Alternatively, you can drop a marker with him and toss an 11 into a Warden, which is an always handy fellow to bring in. But sometimes Plan A works, sometimes it doesn't, which is why Dispatcher is Plan B (more like Plan Buttload of Work).

Other than my core Guard guys though (not even counting Riflemen), it's really a free for all for hiring. Nino with for From the Shadows is a really interesting choice. But I wonder if that is something that makes people struggle with for Guild--there seems to be a wide variety of pieces across all the keywords that you have to slot into a list for the right situation at the right time. Get it right, you've got a game, get it wrong, you're going to spend the next 5 turns struggling. It certainly increases buy-in costs and learning curve. My most recent one was Lucius into Titania--I don't own the Lone Marshal yet, so my anti-concealment plans were limited. And I did feel that I struggled a lot in that game.

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On 1/27/2020 at 8:33 AM, DuBlanck said:

We also play with a shedload of Concealing and big chunky LoS-blockers, so the Rifleman strats don't work terribly well either. I definitely need to get a lot more work in with the Mounted Guard before I throw my otys out of the pram though.

While I am always one for lots of terrain, too much of certain types is a problem. Maybe reduce the amount of Concealing and Blocking a bit to see if you can find a better balance. It should offer opportunities for shooting crews and melee crews. It sounds like you might be over compensating making it too hard for ranged crews. 

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While that would be nice, I can't really see that happening, Perdita's AP are just too good for that, and if they nerf her AP to accommodate, she'll feel terrible without comboing her into space. I can definitely see them simply saying "non-master" instead of "lower cost model", though.

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On 1/26/2020 at 3:10 AM, Fetid Strumpet said:

All your models have a way around cover/ concealment. Focus.

The problem is access to focus on relevant Actions. I checked just now, and 16 models have the term Focused on them. 6 of those are Journalists, through Chasing a Story, and I don't think that focus is being used to buff their damage output. Beyond that, two applications are on totems, and three more are on unrelated Masters. Of the remaining 5, 2 are simply using the fact that there's Focused on a model to do something, and one is Greed, which requires other Crossroads models to be in play. That leaves us 2 models that can apply Focus to other models: the Guild Steward and Santiago Ortega.

I also looked at Concentrate, and, of the 10 models with that term on them, only 2 aren't Family, which is entirely insular in its Concentrate generation. The two remaining models are Dashel, and The Jury, which is actually an anti-concentrate aura for enemies.

I don't necessarily think this is a problem, as Focus is good for more than just bypassing Cover/Concealment (Serene Countenance, for example), but when a lot of Guild's schtick is shooting, it's pretty noticable. On top of that, we only have Niño with Sharpshooter, and Perdita, Santiago, and Riflemen with Expert Shot. Functionally, that means that for every Action that needs to bypass certain terrain, we have to spend 2 Actions to get 1 usable Action. I think we have enough efficiency issues as is.

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13 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Let me pump actions into Perdita until she is dead.

I've thought about it a bit more, and this actually brings up an issue I'm seeing with various models, one which was deemed somewhat abusive in late M2E. Specifically, the concept of "Ideally, I'd put the majority of my AP into this one model," which, I think, speaks primarily to the disparity between our good models and the other pieces we have to work with. It's actually an issue I have with the design concept behind Lucius and the Elite/Mimic models (and why I concepted a complete overhaul of them despite never having played them), in that it seems to encourage chaining Obeys between your own models and not actually interacting with the opponent for a long time (2E Newcius was my favorite master, so I may be biased).

That turned into a Lucius rant, whoops. The main point is that putting a load of AP into a single model is, to me at least, really boring and was deemed abusive last edition, so seems like they'd try to avoid it this time around.

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On 1/20/2020 at 5:07 PM, Michael Curran said:

Lady Justice should be stat 7 most definitely.  I fought the good fight and lost...... yet, I was right most assuredly.  In tournament play, GUILD IS lacking in significant areas.  Sustainability & damage output are big areas of need.  


Justice - a clockwork pistol & stat 7 would be very helpful.  Recruiter is garbage for 8ss, Judge is decent, & ‘Stewie’ is indispensable!

Family:  Perdita’s crew needs help.... guys don’t even use her totem, nor Abuela.  They lack, no machismo in this crew.

Guard:  as mentioned, summoning is awful, and dogs should be made a viable piece to use.  Versatile and immunities to certain conditions would be beneficial.  Lower the cost by one and bazinga

Lucious:  only witness from the neverborn side of things.

The rest of the masters I feel I haven’t seen, or played enough to make a clear critique.

 

In the beta you said she should be stat 8 … when she didn't need to be stat 7. I said it then and I will reiterate it at stat 7 with a + to damage inbuilt (provided you didn't charge - easy considering leap) she would be on a straight flip against pretty much every model in the game... that paired with her triggers allowed for her to have a tremendous damage output (single or multiple attack). Obviously since then they changed onslaught to quick reflexes which toned her down. It still means she can comfortably put out 7 attacks in a turn with correct positioning or 4 utilising crit strike to up the damage.

Judge is decent but unfortunately the bonus risk of reason has become too costly IMO - the damage should be reduced to 1 and tomes kept.

In regards to the family the totem adds mobility, an easy focus and another potential obey if you set it up with ball and chain. Also Abuela is pretty much a key model to utilise if you plan to make out of activation actions...

Guard was hit too much in the beta, Dashel looked too strong and needed a small tweak, instead multiple were implemented and it has hurt him. It is a simple enough buff though.

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17 minutes ago, Xekros said:

I've thought about it a bit more, and this actually brings up an issue I'm seeing with various models, one which was deemed somewhat abusive in late M2E. Specifically, the concept of "Ideally, I'd put the majority of my AP into this one model," which, I think, speaks primarily to the disparity between our good models and the other pieces we have to work with. It's actually an issue I have with the design concept behind Lucius and the Elite/Mimic models (and why I concepted a complete overhaul of them despite never having played them), in that it seems to encourage chaining Obeys between your own models and not actually interacting with the opponent for a long time (2E Newcius was my favorite master, so I may be biased).

That turned into a Lucius rant, whoops. The main point is that putting a load of AP into a single model is, to me at least, really boring and was deemed abusive last edition, so seems like they'd try to avoid it this time around.

IMO the true strength of Lucius is knowing what to obey/issue command and when, I also think this was demonstrated well by Jesse and Geir on the TFW episode, it always strikes me as a bit of a trap for lesser experienced players to pile loads of AP into another specific model, especially if it is telegraphed, as that key AP dump model dying will mess up an the whole plan.

The strength of the keyword comes from the flexibility to be able to do things at any time rather than specific times, for example I needed a marker down for herness and the lawyer I had couldn't get to the position and do it in their activation as such they positioned and Lucius issued command on them. It is a simple example but was a necessity for scoring a point in the final turn.

Also I will caution the call for overhauling a keyword that you have never played, get them on the table and a chunk of games under your belt then come back with suggestions based on experience.

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If I was going to buff Justice herself, I'd give her a built-in ram on her greatsword. That way, at least I find her more threatening on average than a Hoff buffed guardian. If she wants her 7 attack dream turn, she gives up bonus damage because the triggers won't allow for it, but if she just needs to land a couple of attacks, she can actually deal Master tier damage without having to stone on every attack. Additionally, I'd probably throw some kind of Move-Along-For-Marshals buff to the Scales of Justice. Makes me feel like I'm not an idiot for taking all these Mv 5 keyword models with no real movement mechanics. 

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22 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

If I was going to buff Justice herself, I'd give her a built-in ram on her greatsword. That way, at least I find her more threatening on average than a Hoff buffed guardian. If she wants her 7 attack dream turn, she gives up bonus damage because the triggers won't allow for it, but if she just needs to land a couple of attacks, she can actually deal Master tier damage without having to stone on every attack. Additionally, I'd probably throw some kind of Move-Along-For-Marshals buff to the Scales of Justice. Makes me feel like I'm not an idiot for taking all these Mv 5 keyword models with no real movement mechanics. 

I think they want us to take the dmr for that.

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54 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

If I was going to buff Justice herself, I'd give her a built-in ram on her greatsword. That way, at least I find her more threatening on average than a Hoff buffed guardian. If she wants her 7 attack dream turn, she gives up bonus damage because the triggers won't allow for it, but if she just needs to land a couple of attacks, she can actually deal Master tier damage without having to stone on every attack. Additionally, I'd probably throw some kind of Move-Along-For-Marshals buff to the Scales of Justice. Makes me feel like I'm not an idiot for taking all these Mv 5 keyword models with no real movement mechanics. 

I really think adding a Ram to her base stat would be a perfect solution. If that isn't in the cards, she needs to be made Stat 7 on her sword. It's lame that the Victoria's have a Stat 7 attack and cost one less Soul Stone. With their synergy, (Whirlwind Attack or That One Counts as Mine) they can easily generate more attacks than Justice, at a higher Stat, and put out more damage . 

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5 hours ago, Cleezy said:

In the beta you said she should be stat 8 … when she didn't need to be stat 7. I said it then and I will reiterate it at stat 7 with a + to damage inbuilt (provided you didn't charge - easy considering leap) she would be on a straight flip against pretty much every model in the game... that paired with her triggers allowed for her to have a tremendous damage output (single or multiple attack). Obviously since then they changed onslaught to quick reflexes which toned her down. It still means she can comfortably put out 7 attacks in a turn with correct positioning or 4 utilising crit strike to up the damage.

Judge is decent but unfortunately the bonus risk of reason has become too costly IMO - the damage should be reduced to 1 and tomes kept.

In regards to the family the totem adds mobility, an easy focus and another potential obey if you set it up with ball and chain. Also Abuela is pretty much a key model to utilise if you plan to make out of activation actions...

Guard was hit too much in the beta, Dashel looked too strong and needed a small tweak, instead multiple were implemented and it has hurt him. It is a simple enough buff though.

Do you think its reasonable that the Viks are Stat 7, with the same damage track as Lady Justice, can actually heal easier with supplemental models, can move more with Battle Tempo, can get more attacks in than Justice, cost less than Justice does, and have an overall higher damage output per turn with their triggers than Justice does? 

This is a case of their toy can do more than ours, and it doesn't make sense. 

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20 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Do you think its reasonable that the Viks are Stat 7, with the same damage track as Lady Justice, can actually heal easier with supplemental models, can mover more with Battle Tempo, can get more attacks in than Justice, cost less than Justice does, and have an overall higher damage output per turn with their triggers than Justice does? 

This is a case of their toy can do more than ours, and it doesn't make sense. 

If the first paragraph of the quote above isn't enough proof, you simply aren't comparing LJ to similar models in other factions, and are just saying what you believe without providing evidence. 

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9 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Do you think its reasonable that the Viks are Stat 7, with the same damage track as Lady Justice, can actually heal easier with supplemental models, can get more attacks in than Justice,  and have an overall higher damage output per turn with their triggers than Justice does? 

This is a case of their toy can do more than ours, and it doesn't make sense. 

One thing that is often missed is Lady Justice has :+flipto damage (as long as she didn't charge, and because of her Leap, in most situations you can make sure you get that bonus). And because of that her expected Damage per attack action is higher than the Viks when you look at low to mid level models. The Viks is higher at Df 6 or greater targets if I remember rightly.

Someone did the numbers, it might have been in the beta forums as I can't find it at the moment, but  it took into account the likely hood of hitting and the likely damage of each hit. I don't think it considered Triggers, or cheating damage flips.

So in comparing 1 Viktoria to Lady Justice, I don't think she moves more, does more attacks or typically has a higher damage output per turn.  If you are counting having 2 Viks, then yes they do, btu its much easier to reduce their output by killing one.

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10 minutes ago, Adran said:

One thing that is often missed is Lady Justice has :+flipto damage (as long as she didn't charge, and because of her Leap, in most situations you can make sure you get that bonus). And because of that her expected Damage per attack action is higher than the Viks when you look at low to mid level models. The Viks is higher at Df 6 or greater targets if I remember rightly.

Someone did the numbers, it might have been in the beta forums as I can't find it at the moment, but  it took into account the likely hood of hitting and the likely damage of each hit. I don't think it considered Triggers, or cheating damage flips.

So in comparing 1 Viktoria to Lady Justice, I don't think she moves more, does more attacks or typically has a higher damage output per turn.  If you are counting having 2 Viks, then yes they do, btu its much easier to reduce their output by killing one.

The thing is that you don't get one Vik, you always get two. With their speed, they are almost always getting the jump on you. Justice has Lead Lined Coat pretty much stapled to her since she dies so easily. With the Viks access to Vanesssa, they are significantly better. The tournament meta also supports this. 

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The main sinergy i've seen with LJ is that she needs to play a lot with injured to down the DF stats. She doesn't need stat 6 (even though I find it a bit unfair to see stat 7 everywhere around except for her, but I'm in love with the redheaded blind bighter). That's why it's almost compulsory to play with Domadores all the time. DF needs a little bit more.

My main problem so far with the Guild is with the Family keyword. I find them sooooooooooo squeeshy. And the witchling keyword is basically the same, except for Sonnia who I find weaker than she used to be... (having in mind that now it's easier to get anywhere in the 2nd turn with the 1AP charge).

I've seen a lot of complaints about Dashel, and I personally find it just fine.

Overall the lack of movement and damage is what I miss the most. In 2nd I found that noone punched as the guild, now I think that noone gts punched as the Guild xD

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13 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

The thing is that you don't get one Vik, you always get two. With their speed, they are almost always getting the jump on you. Justice has Lead Lined Coat pretty much stapled to her since she dies so easily. With the Viks access to Vanesssa, they are significantly better. The tournament meta also supports this. 

You only get 2 Viks when you select them as a master. (I'm only saying that since part of your complain was that the Viks cost less, and you only pay the cost if you're hiring them as a second master, and you would need to hire each Vik seperatly then, and that makes Justice much cheaper).  I'm not quite sure how they are getting the jump on Justice, with 21" threat (2" push, 3*6"move 1" engagement) vs 24" threat (7+" leap, 3*5" move 2" engagement). And Justice can heal easier than the Viks can, without supplemental models (I can argue the Steward does better healing than Vanessa since it comes with a free focus).

And why does a 12 wound model with hard to wound and Juggernaut die that much faster than a 8 wound model?  It may well be the case that Justice dies more often than a Viks, but its not just down to the stat card because Df 6 is not that much better than Df 5.

Tournament Meta are very different in each region. It also provides a view on the faction you think can handle all situations, not just the relative power of each master. Even if Justice was clearly better than the Viks, you may still see the viks more, because that meta believe Outcasts can handle other set ups better than Guild.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you've not exactly proven anything, rather you just saying what you believe. I've certainly not proven that Justice doesn't need a change. I don't know either way, I'm just wary of change for changes sake.

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29 minutes ago, Adran said:

You only get 2 Viks when you select them as a master. (I'm only saying that since part of your complain was that the Viks cost less, and you only pay the cost if you're hiring them as a second master, and you would need to hire each Vik seperatly then, and that makes Justice much cheaper).  I'm not quite sure how they are getting the jump on Justice, with 21" threat (2" push, 3*6"move 1" engagement) vs 24" threat (7+" leap, 3*5" move 2" engagement). And Justice can heal easier than the Viks can, without supplemental models (I can argue the Steward does better healing than Vanessa since it comes with a free focus).

And why does a 12 wound model with hard to wound and Juggernaut die that much faster than a 8 wound model?  It may well be the case that Justice dies more often than a Viks, but its not just down to the stat card because Df 6 is not that much better than Df 5.

Tournament Meta are very different in each region. It also provides a view on the faction you think can handle all situations, not just the relative power of each master. Even if Justice was clearly better than the Viks, you may still see the viks more, because that meta believe Outcasts can handle other set ups better than Guild.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you've not exactly proven anything, rather you just saying what you believe. I've certainly not proven that Justice doesn't need a change. I don't know either way, I'm just wary of change for changes sake.

The Viks have access to additional models that can move them farther than Guild's supporting models. Also, Justice has to choose between healing or leaping. If she has to heal (which is a reality with her low defense), her movement is significantly reduced.  

The issue with Vanessa is that her heal can be done more than once, healing more damage than Justice's single zero action. Also, the Steward can only heal once as well. You can't look at the Viks as an 8 wound model. They are a 16 wound model that are usually near one another and can activate in tandem before you can respond with Synchronized. Killing one Vik gives the others + flips to an already above average defense, (I get it on will power). 

Meta really isn't that different between regions. If you look at regions, TT and Outcasts are cleaning up. Neverborn look pretty decent as well. No one else is really that close. 

I don't mean to be rude if I sound that way! Just a friendly disagreement, and I appreciate the conversation! 

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

Someone did the numbers, it might have been in the beta forums as I can't find it at the moment, but  it took into account the likely hood of hitting and the likely damage of each hit. I don't think it considered Triggers, or cheating damage flips.

Not sure are you talking about mine work, I did have done a simulation between the damage output of Justice, Nekima and single Viktoria during the Beta. I had not save down the number neither, but afair the conclusion is, in short, Justice deals more damage than the other 2 competitors when facing a target with Df 5 or lower.

 

What had I done is to calculate the actual damage following the below condition:

  • Both Attacking and Resisting model draw 2 random cards.
  • The Resisting model always cheats the highest card, on the other hand the Attacking model will try to keep the highest card for damage flip if it cheats second
  • Ignores suit and trigger because of complexity
  • Ignores abilities like Hard to Wound and Armor

Then repeat the above step about 500,000 times to come up with an average damage output.

 

The result is that Justice, with the :+flip from not charging, is actually dealing more damage than Nekima and Viktoria when facing a target with Df 5 or lower. In the case of Df 6 or higher, however, Justice is worse than the other two.

So my view at that time was: Justice is not a duelist who fight in face with other master, instead she is more an assassin who leap into opponent backline to hunt down the supporter and/or range power. It was clear that Justice could distribute just as good and had equal value in competitive view comparing with other melee master. I was, however, just not into the fact that Justice cannot win the face to face fighting with other melee master.

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18 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

The Viks have access to additional models that can move them farther than Guild's supporting models. Also, Justice has to choose between healing or leaping. If she has to heal (which is a reality with her low defense), her movement is significantly reduced.  

Meta really isn't that different between regions. If you look at regions, TT and Outcasts are cleaning up. Neverborn look pretty decent as well. No one else is really that close. 

I don't mean to be rude if I sound that way! Just a friendly disagreement, and I appreciate the conversation! 

Support is a different thing. Outcast Support being better than Guild support may also be true, but then wouldn't you be better to improve the guild support, rather than the model its trying to support.

The results from the Las Vagas open, The Russian nationals and the UK Nationals do seem to paint different pictures., I'd put Bayou and Ressers up their with Arcanists and Ten thunders and Neverborn.  Outcasts did well in UK but not so much in the other two. Guild certainly seem the poor relation but  seem to have 1 good result dotted about. (whilst they didn't do well in UK nationals, they got first and 3rd in an event recently)

All three of those metas use different gaining grounds, so differences aren't surprising. And the UK and the US have  had quite different "top" factions over the years, enough so I think the way the 2 groups play is quite different

18 minutes ago, Rufess said:

Not sure are you talking about mine work, I did have done a simulation between the damage output of Justice, Nekima and single Viktoria during the Beta. I had not save down the number neither, but afair the conclusion is, in short, Justice deals more damage than the other 2 competitors when facing a target with Df 5 or lower.

Cheers -yes that's what I was thinking of. It really made me think more carefully about things, because before it, I'd have said Viks easily did more damage,

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2 hours ago, le_wahou said:

If there was something to change on LJ, it would be more synergy. Her inspring swordplay do not function. She is often way too far to have allied marshalls in her 6" focus pulse.

How well Inspiring Swordplay functions is very much tied to playstyle. I think it is good that she gets some kind of bonus for being closer to her crew, as it is very tempting to use her like a cruise missile. For me Inspiring Swordplay tends to work on some of her kills, but of course not all of them. But I do favour a more defensive playstyle.

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