What Would You Errata? (in Guild)

[Michael Curran]

Lady Justice should be stat 7 most definitely.  I fought the good fight and lost...... yet, I was right most assuredly.  In tournament play, GUILD IS lacking in significant areas.  Sustainability & damage output are big areas of need.  

Justice - a clockwork pistol & stat 7 would be very helpful.  Recruiter is garbage for 8ss, Judge is decent, & ‘Stewie’ is indispensable!

Family:  Perdita’s crew needs help.... guys don’t even use her totem, nor Abuela.  They lack, no machismo in this crew.

Guard:  as mentioned, summoning is awful, and dogs should be made a viable piece to use.  Versatile and immunities to certain conditions would be beneficial.  Lower the cost by one and bazinga

Lucious:  only witness from the neverborn side of things.

The rest of the masters I feel I haven’t seen, or played enough to make a clear critique.

 

[Alerteddonkey42]

23 hours ago, Michael Curran said:

Family:  Perdita’s crew needs help.... guys don’t even use her totem, nor Abuela.  They lack, no machismo in this crew.

I agree that her totem needs work. She is the only master where I have seen an extremely compelling argument to not take their totem. It's silly that not taking a free model made to synergize with the crew may actually be the correct choice. However, I do think Perdita has some play and isn't in nearly as dire a state as I initially thought. I need to get her on the table a bit more. 

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I agree that her totem needs work. She is the only master where I have seen an extremely compelling argument to not take their totem. It's silly that not taking a free model made to synergize with the crew may actually be the correct choice. However, I do think Perdita has some play and isn't in nearly as dire a state as I initially thought. I need to get her on the table a bit more. 

I get at least one extra focus a game with it, almost always on perdita.  One focus on perdita is like gold.  

[Legislat]

1 minute ago, 4thstringer said:

I get at least one extra focus a game with it, almost always on perdita.  One focus on perdita is like gold.  

This is pretty ok by itself. The issue is not how crappy he is (and honestly he is pretty crappy), but that he has almost nothing great.

Insignificant - check. Both good and bad.

No unique mechanics - check.

Walk 4.

Aaaaaaand every action he has will most definately force you to chuck a card (in already card starved crew).

His support is just very expensive for what it is.

 

He can potentilally be usefull by dying to thousand cuts in the midst of enemy models but you will never get there. The only fun thing to do with him is to throw it with Guardians Toss to annoy someone for a vanishingly small amount of time.

But most of all - he is not interesting.

[Legislat]

Sorry for the second post. But here are my two cents:

First of all there will probably be no buffs at all. Errata will fix broken and overpowered things, not the underperforming ones.

So Pale Rider will have to get ready XD.

Agent 46 should probably also be reworked for the better. Inhuman Physiology should probably be "discard a card to cheat".

We have a lot of lingering issues about mobility and models without a clear purpose and value but they will be the last ones on the list of important things to do.

Anyway:

1) Orderlies - front and back of the card are almost from the different models. They dont work together at all.

2) Dogs. They are not needed in Daschel. And they are too expensive for other crews.

3) Honestly Dashel's crew probably should recieve some love. This mechanic around markers is so clanky it hurts sometimes. Almost everything is keyword only picks. Id never consider hiring seargent or executioner in other lists. Even Mounted Guard purpose is not clear when you can just take a Pale Rider insted for a better returns.

4) Queeg is almost a never pick in guard, let alone anywhere else. He requires too much AP from the other sources to work. You almost have to pick Lucius for his mechanics to work.

5) Abuela. Weak niche pick for keyword only.

6) DM Recruiter. Honestly at least give him Consolidate Power.

7) Field Reporter. GIve em Frantic Flailing. I seldom see a model that can potentially be completely useless against other models. 

8 )Nurse HB - Give her 1 more wound and she will be fine.

9) Pistoleros need a rework. Those paper planes are a never pick.

10) Thalarian Quellers - give them Arcane touch with stat 5.

11) Enslaved Neph - see the post above.

12) I cant bring myself to pick Monster Hunters also. Pretty hard to choose models that only do one thing and die to a stiff breeze.

13) Riotbreaker - a niche pick only. I never consider them in an all around list.

14) Frontiersmen cant hope to survive competition with pathfinders and austringers. Give them HTK instead of backup and they will be perfect.

15) The Hunters are too damn expensive for their stats. I always want to take them, but my inner calculator always talk me out of it after all those initial tests with them. Up their wp by 1 or give them one more wound.

16) Our upgrades. The big problem is armor is almost always glued to Lady J, Perdita and Sonnia. The biggest problem is the rest of upgrades are not worth it at all.

It is probably bad that some upgrades are an always pick on certain models and a never pick on anything else. Armor is the only worth upgrade and is always on the same models.

And oh boy i hate with burning passion an abundance of reach 0' attacks on our models. 

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, Legislat said:

 

Agent 46 should probably also be reworked for the better. Inhuman Physiology should probably be "discard a card to cheat".

 

God I hope not without changing something else.  He would become a never take model so fast.  Maybe if they made it like pride, so he always cheats second.

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, Legislat said:

 

First of all there will probably be no buffs at all. Errata will fix broken and overpowered things, not the underperforming ones.

 

This potential reality might by the one that actually makes me leave guild.  Playing with a handicap is starting to get old.

[Gnomezilla]

19 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

God I hope not without changing something else.  He would become a never take model so fast.  Maybe if they made it like pride, so he always cheats second.

If Inhuman Physiology had been better split into Combat Finesse defensive anti-cheating and some sort of offensive anti-cheating, and then Agent 46 got the offensive version, I wouldn’t mind that...but the mind games of cheating second suit a Lucius mindset, and making that a targeted ability/action opens up the possibility of reining in Pride whose aura gets oppressive quickly, so I like your idea.

[Cursed25]

14 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

This potential reality might by the one that actually makes me leave guild.  Playing with a handicap is starting to get old.

sadly this is why I play a lot more games with my TT than my Guild even if Guild is my first faction! I like their lore and their looks but for now Guild is not as interesting as the other factions in my opinion! They are too much fight centric with no toys and aren't even that strong in the fight department!

[Xekros]

Some thoughts I've had, probably coherent, definitely untested, but, in my opinion, interesting enough to get feedback on. Primarily for Witch Hunters, since I've played them most. The intent is not necessarily that all of these happen, but I hope that some of them happen

All Witch Hunters -

1. Counterspell - change to "Models within 6 must discard a card to declare triggers"

Sonnia -

1. Seeking Flames - Also ignore Dense and Stealth.
2. Flameburst - Increase range by X, where X is the value of the Burning condition on the target.
   1. iirc, targeting happens, then range is determined, then legality is determined, which is how this is intended to work.
3. Smothering Flame - Reduces damage received by X, where X is the damage the target would take from burning at the end of the turn.
   1. This would be neat, but maybe a bit much.
4. Add  to Df.
   1. Probably a more reasonable defensive buff, though less interesting.

Samael Hopkins -

1. Gain Sharpshooter

Witchling Handler -

1. Goad Witchling - remove minion restrictions
2. [New ability] Follow the Pack - When a friendly Witchling model ends its activation, one friendly model within 6 of this model may move up to 2" towards the Witchling.
   1. I've only recently come up with this, so I haven't considered the numbers or aura sources well yet, but something to this effect.

Thalarian Queller - 

1. [New ability] Lockdown - Remove all Lockdown Markers created by this Action. Drop a Lockdown Marker within range (6-8"). Enemy models may not be placed within 6 of a Lockdown Marker. Lockdown Markers cannot be removed except by this Action.
   1. The intent is for the marker to work like Blow it to Hell, except with a Gravity Well effect from the marker itself. This is inspired by the old Area Suppression markers, but helps a bit with the mobility issues we have. The ranges are entirely arbitrary, but something like that.
2. Barrier to the Other World -> Lantern of Souls
   1. Preventing Demise abilities would have been more useful than slight summon damage. Also, we have Marshals for our anti-summoners, and we need some anti-demise tech.

Witchling Thrall -

1. Gain Creep Along

Witchling Stalker -

1. [New ability] Light the Way - When targeting a model without Burning, this model gains + to its attack actions.
   1. This would let them automatically add the first burning, at least, without dying.

 

I have other ideas, mostly for Lucius and, by extension, Dashel, but I think this is already enough text for one post. Thanks for reading, and I'm curious to hear what you think.

[Legislat]

That's not an errata format, that's a complete overhaul 🤭. And that's A LOT of buffs. Any justification?..

[4thstringer]

25 minutes ago, Legislat said:

That's not an errata format, that's a complete overhaul 🤭. And that's A LOT of buffs. Any justification?..

I love sonnia, and I don't think I have heard of anyone getting a win with her theme at a tournament.  I'm sure I missed one somewhere, but it seems pretty abandoned.

[Qracy]

53 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I love sonnia, and I don't think I have heard of anyone getting a win with her theme at a tournament.  I'm sure I missed one somewhere, but it seems pretty abandoned.

I won a game against Colette with her on my last tournament. ☺️

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not sure why Sam comes up for errata, he looks pretty good to me. Phiona and Reichart look pretty bad to me unless there is some kind of internal crew synergy I’m in aware of. Both either need flurry, an extra move action like nimble or leap, or an absolutely great bonus action. They look to me like the pricing paradigm they tried to implement for high cost models before they let some models in with flurry, leap, nimble, revel in x, and so on. The instant you let some of those in it shifts the expected and needed value of similarly costed models. Sybelle and Kang also got smacked by that and it is not good guild had some as well who didn’t get a bonus. Kinda hard to justify either 2 when you can hire a peace keeper.

Marshalls need an overhaul. I really wish Wyrd would just get rid of the undead boosted abilities and just make them flat useful no matter who they are against. They finally stripped all the the anti Arcanist stuff Sonia used to have, and the Anti-Neverborn stuff Perdita never had, even though she was the anti Neverborn master. Just make them thematic in faction and let them be useful no matter who they are paired against without an extra boost if it’s undead. The Keyword should not have to hire models and or win opposed duels that do nothing but let their core mechanics work.

 

 

[Morgan Vening]

4 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Phiona and Reichart look pretty bad to me unless there is some kind of internal crew synergy I’m in aware of.

Phiona is definitely not a model that works independently, or can go off and do her own thing, as well as other models in her price range.

But for holding a specific point, I think she does significantly better than anything else I can think of. D6/W5, Armor+1, and almost always at flips if you're securing an objective area, or a chokepoint. Give her a LLC, and you ain't moving her off that spot without a LOT of work.

She's also an adequate bodyguard for someone a little squishy, and is a decent-ish Lure-r if you're needing to pull a model right out of position (as is Reichart).

Yeah, she's not a great generalist, and the Peacekeeper, or Judge, or some other option might be better if you don't need her particular set of skills. And not having a third action or a universally decent free action hurts. But she's got purpose.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I guess I don’t see it. I don’t see how she is a better bodyguard than say, the peacekeeper. And why hire a 9ss+ model to bodyguard when for that purpose you can generally get models at 6 or 7 stones to function adaquetly?

Its sort of a problem across the game with models in that price range. I really do think they either need to nerf the Archies, Dead Riders, Peace Keepers, Pale Riders and so on across the board, or buff ALL the similarly costed models that aren’t taken.

[Legislat]

I don't quite get how peacekeeper will bodyguard anyone who is not Hoffman. Let alone models in 6-7 range?..

Phiona does an exceptional work in my games. She is a beast in survivability and has unique combination of a one if a kind attack, bring it and best IGYB in faction. 

[Morgan Vening]

23 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I guess I don’t see it. I don’t see how she is a better bodyguard than say, the peacekeeper.

I meant in the literal sense. "Take The Hit" means a level of protection that just having a body in the way to block sight/charge lines or hit back, can't do.

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I guess I don’t still don’t see it. Sure Peacekeeper can’t use take the hit. But the circumstances where the model you NEED to bodyguard will die in one round, and it’s worth hiring a 9ss model whose sole task is to do so, and can’t wait until a peace keeper can activate and just remove the threat... I dunno I still would rather have the peacekeeper. Or, assuming you guarded model can use SS, just bank an extra large cache.

[Mikes]

13 hours ago, Xekros said:

Some thoughts I've had, probably coherent, definitely untested, but, in my opinion, interesting enough to get feedback on. Primarily for Witch Hunters, since I've played them most. The intent is not necessarily that all of these happen, but I hope that some of them happen

All Witch Hunters -

1. Counterspell - change to "Models withing 6 must discard a card to declare triggers"

Sonnia -

1. Seeking Flames - Also ignore Dense and Stealth.
2. Flameburst - Increase range by X, where X is the value of the Burning condition on the target.
   1. iirc, targeting happens, then range is determined, then legality is determined, which is how this is intended to work.
3. Smothering Flame - Reduces damage received by X, where X is the damage the target would take from burning at the end of the turn.
   1. This would be neat, but maybe a bit much.
4. Add  to Df.
   1. Probably a more reasonable defensive buff, though less interesting.

Samael Hopkins -

1. Gain Sharpshooter

Witchling Handler -

1. Goad Witchling - remove minion restrictions
2. [New ability] Follow the Pack - When a friendly Witchling model ends its activation, one friendly model withing 6 of this model may move up to 2" towards the Witchling.
   1. I've only recently come up with this, so I haven't considered the numbers or aura sources well yet, but something to this effect.

Thalarian Queller - 

1. [New ability] Lockdown - Remove all Lockdown Markers created by this Action. Drop a Lockdown Marker within range (6-8"). Enemy models may not be placed within 6 of a Lockdown Marker. Lockdown Markers cannot be removed except by this Action.
   1. The intent is for the marker to work like Blow it to Hell, except with a Gravity Well effect from the marker itself. This is inspired by the old Area Suppression markers, but helps a bit with the mobility issues we have. The ranges are entirely arbitrary, but something like that.
2. Barrier to the Other World -> Lantern of Souls
   1. Preventing Demise abilities would have been more useful than slight summon damage. Also, we have Marshals for our anti-summoners, and we need some anti-demise tech.

Witchling Thrall -

1. Gain Creep Along

Witchling Stalker -

1. [New ability] Light the Way - When targeting a model without Burning, this model gains + to its attack actions.
   1. This would let them automatically add the first burning, at least, without dying.

 

Good ideas and you've obviously put a lot of thought into this. If i can add my own 2p:

 

Sonnia - i like the additonal range idea. Imo in this edition she's missing the additional blast move and it shows. I also agree she needs something more on her def ability.

 

Sam - i disagree here. So far in all my 3e games Sam has been absolute monster. I don't think he needs anything buffed.

Thralls - same as with Sam, they're just amazing as is. 

Stalkers - Definitely on yhe auto burn. At the moment they're in no man's land, role wise,and need something to make them relevant. 

Counterspell - Probably a good move. I've barely ever had it come up in games, which makes me think it's basically irrelevant as is.

[Xekros]

@Fetid Strumpet As I said in the post, my ideas are based on my experience, and I've not yet played either of Phiona or Reichart. Not to say they don't need buffs, just that I don't know.

@Mikes Sam seems like a setup model, to me, so maybe I'm just using him wrong, but his best use seems to be to light things on fire for Sonnia, but nothing in the crew has any way to get around cover/concealment except the Handler, and that model isn't quite durable enough to get close enough to use Witchfire, from my experience. And the Handler needs to be around the other Witchling models for the first few activations anyway. The Thralls have a hard time getting into melee for me, though I think part of that is due to my common opponents playing Wp heavy crews, so Drawn to Pain doesn't work.

I don't really include the various Witchlings in the "lighting things on fire" category because all but the totem basically need to die to get burning out effectively. The Purifying Flame works really well on that front, but the lack of Handler buff makes it a lot harder to get it in place to use Hovering Flame.

 

I also completely forgot about Sanctioned Spellcasters, not sure what to do with them at all (or if they even need anything), as I've only used them once or twice.

[Fetid Strumpet]

All your models have a way around cover/ concealment. Focus.

[DuBlanck]

On 1/21/2020 at 7:43 PM, Legislat said:

Dashel's crew probably should recieve some love. This mechanic around markers is so clanky it hurts

Reading @Gaston's batreps has been terribly frustrating as someone only a few games into Dashel - I just never seem to have the Masks and Severes in my hands at the same time to get much out of the boss, so I'm mostly struggling to get work out of the summoning. We also play with a shedload of Concealing and big chunky LoS-blockers, so the Rifleman strats don't work terribly well either. I definitely need to get a lot more work in with the Mounted Guard before I throw my otys out of the pram though.

On 1/21/2020 at 7:43 PM, Legislat said:

The Hunters are too damn expensive for their stats.

I've definitely found this, but (disclaimer:) I only ran them with Lucius for a flanker-hunter. Assassin is great and all, Deadly Pursuit is undeniably useful, but there's a lot of Magical Christmas Land thinking (to nick a Guild Ball term) to justify the price tag.

[Irritated Walrus]

22 hours ago, DuBlanck said:

Reading @Gaston's batreps has been terribly frustrating as someone only a few games into Dashel - I just never seem to have the Masks and Severes in my hands at the same time to get much out of the boss, so I'm mostly struggling to get work out of the summoning. We also play with a shedload of Concealing and big chunky LoS-blockers, so the Rifleman strats don't work terribly well either. I definitely need to get a lot more work in with the Mounted Guard before I throw my otys out of the pram though.

I've definitely found this, but (disclaimer:) I only ran them with Lucius for a flanker-hunter. Assassin is great and all, Deadly Pursuit is undeniably useful, but there's a lot of Magical Christmas Land thinking (to nick a Guild Ball term) to justify the price tag.

I won a tournament round Saturday using Daschel, 6-4.

I think the key with him is to hire all the major pieces you want, and summon in the supplemental, lower cost pieces. Sling shotting Executioners into the enemy using ride with me is no joke. I simply think he should be able to summon without the use of markers. Once my opponent realized that The Dispatcher was key to my summoning game, he got nuked turn two. I spent the rest of the game summoning in Rifleman since I couldn't afford to do anything else off my own markers. The Strat was Plant Explosives, and I got three bombs down in a 4 turn game scoring me three. I scored two on Deliver a Message, and one on Power Ritual by hiring Nino out of Keyword and deploying him in an opposite corner to drop a marker turn 2. Couldn't place my third marker to score full on Power Ritual. 

I feel like there are a lot of things we can do, but you have to be willing to hire out of keyword. For example, my Daschel list contained The Lone Marshal and Nino. 

[Irritated Walrus]

In the tournament I just played, I saw a lot of Dig Your Graves cheese. Having a model like a Huckster, Grave Spirit or Akaname sit in the corner and drop out schemes and corpses/scraps to set up the second point of Dig Your Graves. You can score that second point without scoring the first at the end of the game. 

The only models we have that can manage something like that are Arcanists Union Steamfitters taken in a Hoffman Augmented crew. A Metal Gamin would work as well, but he can't be taken in Guild with Hoff. 

I will say Hoff is in a really good place. He can just do so much, make models fast, nice little pushes, + flips, built in suits, throwing models up the board, models that can generate extra attacks or moves on their own. The problem is that he is WAY better as an Arcanist.