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Is our faction just not interact efficient?


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Disclaimer: My first crew was Molly with Crooligans, so the bar is set pretty high from my first impressions.

But one thing I'm noticing as I branch out into more crews is how inefficient our interacting is (whether for plant explosives, other strategies, or schemes). Interacting has two components to it: moving and taking the interact action. By far, the main part of interacting is getting the model to the location it needs to be at to interact. And for that, we don't seem as efficient as some other factions seem like they are.

Sure, we have stuff to cheat movement a bit, but it often feels far less efficient (for example, Pandora has tons of movement shenanigans, but all within her bubble). We do have Bultungin, and to a lesser extent creeping dolls...  But Torakage can ninja vanish, crooligans can teleport, necropunks and wind gamin can leap, Iron Skeeters can Fly With Me (although at 7 stones, they're starting to push the boundary of 'efficient'), etc.  Also interesting to note we are the only faction without a model with leap that can interact (EDIT: Although Zoraida of course can bring in several leaping models).

What do you think? Can we be interact-efficient, or is it just a weakness of the faction?

Note that I don't necessarily think this means that we're underpowered or anything, but may be more of a playstyle thing. It seems Neverborn are more focused on controlling the games through other means (such as killing the enemy) such that we don't need to be interact efficient. We also have TONS of 2" engagement ranges, which makes us extremely efficient for denying interact actions in certain cases. We're probably one of the best factions for denying interactions on strategy markers, I would think.

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Neverborn is indeed all about the killing with a dash of anti-scheming in the mix - with the exception of Lucius, when he brings in his Lawyers and Witnesses from the Guild, you’ll find few options for messing with schemes beyond the basic interact action.

So we’re cut off from fulfilling a lot of schemes efficiently, especially when games have a tendency not to run the full five turns. Then again there are tricksy/speedy models like the spiders, but overall you’ll find victory by killing your opponent and choosing schemes relying on position.

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I find in my NB games, with Marcus and Dreamer, to have no problems. Dreamer has so many pushes to get nightmares up the board, the web marker teleports, and summoning on something, killing it, and the new model can go scheme after if need be. Marcus, you have molemen and even cerberus who can become amazing schemers after they kill a model or two. But thats arcanist models brought in. I also think that while Savage will be another killing keyword, they have some very interesting movement and scheme marker potential.

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NVB is more about killing plus deny first and scheming after that than trying to outscheme as main strategy. NVB have some options but other factions have better models for that (not counting Marcus, Zoraida and Lucius as leaders tho), this faction options are usually a bit more expensive and less efficient. However as you said that's ok, it's just a characteristic of the faction and something to keep in mind when hiring to not try something that won't work like outscheme a Colette for example.

Best in faction (imo):

  • Dolls: good if there are some quick models ahead so they may use creep along. Creep along if engaged.
  • Nephilims with Fly with me (BBS, Young, Mature): Decent schemers, less tankier than others but with good punch (young or mature)
  • The WW/Bander pair is very good, a bit pricy, squishy and unable to double scheme tho. Place into webs if engaged.
  • Rider: Pricy but also fast, able to double scheme and hard to challenge. Ride with me if engaged.
  • Cyclops: Not fast but may stack markers (drop a marker, create a pilar, bonus action to drop a second marker) and place marker at distance which is very good.
  • Rattler: pricy as OOK but very fast, able to double scheme and handle models sent to deal with him. It can use reposition trigger if engaged
  • Tuco: Only "From the Shadows" in the faction; can't double scheme and it's not an amazing beater, but has some tricks up his sleeve. Disilusion/Bravado if engaged.

Other options to consider:

  • Aeslin: Drawn out secret is very good for some schemes like detonate charges or dig.
  • Grootslang: Nice in corner deployment to get a head start but not that mobile after that. Note it can be combined with a Doppleganger (or a Changeling) to send the other model to a different Lair.
  • Iggy: Much better for denial, but he can do it in a pinch. Can use Misery to disengage (need to hit first)
  • Adze: Very fast and able to double scheme but unable to disengage and a bit squishy.
  • Insidious Madness: Mv6, Incorporeal helps with scheming. May scatter/under pressure to disengage. Quite tanky. Not the best schemer but can help.
  • Bloodwretch: He has potential to be a decent schemer with risky maneouvers and Mv6, but the model is so underwhelming that he doesn't worth it.
  • Bultungin: Fast but crystal made, unable to double scheme and not threatening. Bad boy.
  • Corrupted Hound: Worse than dolls but useful in Nephilim crews (cheap schemer, drop it to splash damage, drop corpse when die).
  • Sorrow: Has some mobility tricks to get a head start and is hard to dealt with for models around his cost; unable to double scheme. Use Misery to disengage. Not the best but can help.
  • Waldgeist: Slow but got ambush so they may double scheme.

The closest thing as a pure fast schemer we got is Nephilims, the Rattler is very close but it lacks a reliable way to disengage in its activation; Dolls are great budget options, but slower and easier to remove. So 7-8 SS OOK for the best schemers.

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When I play Marcus and Zoraida in neverborn I consider myself a lot schemier than when I play guild. 

I don't really consider Lady Justice's leap to count guild as a faction with access to leap, the beasts and swamp fiends available to neverborn if you choose the right master offer more mobility. Since previously dual faction models are now locked to certain masters I think you are forced to look at keyword hires from other factions to get a feel for a faction. 

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Personally I feel that Neverborn aren't behind in the scheming/mobility game. Faes work by denying their opponent mobility, Nightmare and Woe have fast incorporeal models to get where they want, Nephilim have  a ton of taxi flyers and Marcus, Zoraida and Lucius can bring in great schemers. Savage I don't know about. 

Generally I find that Neverborn don't buy dedicated schemers, but rather use models that they would include anyway and then use  whatever is closest to get the job done. For most other crews if your Soulstone miner (or equivalent) unexpectedly gets murdered before completing it's task (not an easy feat I admit) you're suddenly forced to use inefficient models to walk across the table. For Neverborn, the nearest Nephilim flies to where it needs to go, carrying a doll or tot or hound and lets it do the job, while the nephilim returns to the fight.

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Taking in count the non-NVB models accesible through leaders, there are some very good schemers accesible. The hag brings Silurids and the first mate, Marcus can enable Wisps to be decent budget schemers and bring also other good models for that like Molemans or Sabertooths, Lucius bring also tools like False Claim to the table and Hinamatsu can bring Coryphees, Mannequins and Bunrakus. But counting only the "purple" models NVB isn't the stronger faction scheming wise.

Other factions got things like the mechanical rider which is an schemer god, models like the Midnight Stalker, Archie+Crooligans, Soulstone Miners (and maybe also Prospectors) that scheme and almost pay for themselves, budget and powerful schemers like Necropunks or Katahiros, Insignifcant Zombies or Gremlins worth 2SS able to interact... and again that's totally fine; NVB is a bit less efficient at that but it has other stenghts.

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I think this is a historic issue. If you look at the first 2 editions, then Neverborn were full of fast scheming models from their early releases (terror tots, Silurid s and Gupps have always been good models to move and scheme). This meant that the faction didn't gain too many extra models because these good options already existed. and this lack of gaining cheap fast models wasn't really obvious because neverborn already had some of the best cheap fast models.

Now in the bright new M3 world, two of these have left the neverborn, and the third has been re-purposed to lose its speed(Basically tots lost the ability to take 2 walk actions for 1 action).

Neverborn is probably not the worse faction at this (I think its still better than guild on the whole here) but it has dropped to a much lower level overall. I think part of it is countered by the generally higher speed in faction, and general reliance on :ToS-Melee: to attack. The faction is likely to be able to get to a lot of the places you want to interact as it goes around fighting. Its not so good at running and hiding to avoid the fights and just scheme anymore to be topping that list.

 

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It is a bit annoying that the neverborn scheming staples got locked to certain masters without anything else picking up the slack. Wicked dolls are pretty decent for a 3ss model. Creep along can at least get you a bit closer even if you aren't spewing out several markers in an activation like some other models can. Stealth doesn't hurt either on a schemer. 

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6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

It is a bit annoying that the neverborn scheming staples got locked to certain masters without anything else picking up the slack. Wicked dolls are pretty decent for a 3ss model. Creep along can at least get you a bit closer even if you aren't spewing out several markers in an activation like some other models can. Stealth doesn't hurt either on a schemer. 

Yeah, silurid seem nuts for interacting, but aren't faction wide. 

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I agree with most on here that NB have a different setup than most factions, in that we just have solid models that can kill but also scheme when necessary. The "scheming" models that existed in 2E are gone and it's likely for a solid design reason: there's just no other purpose for those models in certain pools. You see the same with most of the other factions, with some exceptions, and I think that's a conscious design decision to give models more utility in a more focused window (the keyword mechanic).

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