Pandora - first impressions after a few games.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I've played a few starter games with Pandora, and hot damn she seems neat! I thought I'd share some of my first impressions for each of the models I've purchased.

Pandora - Poltergeist - Kade

The primary bubble of the crew, these three need to stick together.

Pandora

Mood swings is one of the most powerful abilities in the crew. Winning initiative is a BIG deal in many games, and if you position Pandora correctly, you can just completely negate your opponent's initiative advantage no matter how high they cheat. Definitely worth getting Pandora into the action - as long as they can't penetrate her terrifying (which is what poltergeist is for).

Kade

Kade is a horrifying murder baby... As long as he is alive to keep stabbing.  Without Mood Swings, Kade is going to die at the start of a turn and you'll get one less activation out of him. So he has to stay near Pandora and the geist.

All three of his triggers on his knife are useful, with mask probably being the best overall for the knife. Execute is fantastic when you can set it up, but your opponent isn't going to make it easy.

Rams is his best suit for his abilities overall - luring an enemy in with a rams trigger means you're going to be stabbing super hard (1 super attack + 2 more attacks from fast). Worth doing even if the enemy is in melee. Careful of relying on Pandora's suits - once the action starts, you'll have to activate Kade at the start of the turn or he'll die to a single model beating on him, manipulative or not. But remember you can cheat a decent rams to win most lure duels near a poltergeist.

Poltergeist

Poltergeist is there for his auras. Negating ruthless and giving a minus to willpower duels (include terrifying and lures) is epic. I suspect this is one of the best support totems in the game.

I imagine anyone who plays Pandora more than once is going to learn to kill the Poltergeist ASAP, so be careful to get at least one solid turn at it before it is exposed. It is too fragile to keep alive forever, but whatever time you can gain is useful (as long as you're not keeping it so far from the action it does nothing useful).

It also can scheme, so can be super useful for interacting on turn one (such as on turf war, or harness the leyline) and then is fast enough to run back into the action.

This bubble also positions Kade solidly to be able to lure or where's teddy allies back into your main bubble if they decide to try to break it.

EDIT: I forgot to mention his marker removal as well! Marker removal can be relatively rare, and this guy can remove anything! Extremely potent against marker-based crews.

Teddy

I have played with him once, but he adds so much to the crew. As a solid tank, Kade can lure him forward turn one, and then Teddy is available to countercharge anything that alpha-strikes Kade.

After that, he can stay ahead of Kade by 10" - ready to be called back if needed. He can also pull models out with I've Got Your Back. Between him, Kade, and Pandora, models will be slingshotting all over the table.

He is also excellent in that he requires no support to be effective (other than a bit of assistance turn 1 to advance up the board). So he can just lumber around beating on things while the rest of the crew (especially Kade) takes support from Poltergeist and Pandora.

Candy

Speaking of slingshotting, Candy is fully capable of rocketing herself around the table. So far I give her an early move with Kade turn one, then give her the last activation. I try to have her On Your Heels into a weak-ish spot for the enemy to tie them up. Particularly powerful if she can hit scheme runners, and just spam temper tantrums to bog them down.

Since her beginning of activation stun also means they can't use triggers, she essentially will have armour two unless they send in reinforcements. And it is perfect if they do, as the rest of the crew needs some time to get into position to dominate the board. Candy helps buy the time.

Sorrows

For a short time, I thought Sorrows sucked. Thanks to someone on the forum talking about keeping them on the edge of battle, I now quite like them.

I use them as scheme runners off to the side. Once battle breaks out, they can run in with their auras or support with their ranged stun. Or better yet, an opponent goes after them, as they look weak and isolated. The perfect time to swing the whole bubble around and kill whatever models went after the Sorrow.

They are unfortunately destined to die, but they serve their purpose.

Hooded rider

This crew struggles to deal with severe terrain - all of its key pieces are vulnerable to it. The Hooded Rider immensely helps with that. On top of that, the positioning benefit it gives is going to be insanely useful to the crew.

I haven't played a full 50 stones yet, but as soon as I do, Hooded Rider is going to be in every list I suspect.

Overall

Positioning always matters in Malifaux, but this crew seems particularly precise. You never want your models to stray past the point that you can't reach them with support abilities (with the biggest ones being lure, where's teddy, and I got your back). Pandora can help shift models 3 inches, but using a master's action to move someone three inches is hugely inefficient. Getting positioning right in the first place seems like one of the big challenges of playing Pandora.

Managing conditions - making sure the right conditions aren't stunned so Candy can stun them with her aura, while other certain models ARE stunned so they can't use bonuses and triggers, and also juggling the benefit of having conditions on models vs. pulling it off with opportunistic to try to get another misery trigger... Is a lot to manage!

Seems like a pretty high skill cap for a crew, but at the moment seems pretty manageable since I don't have Aversion/Lyssa. So the number of moving pieces isn't too crazy. I imagine it'll be hectic running the full array! Next up, I'm converting a crooligan into an iggy!

Well, that's it for now! I hope some of these impressions are useful. Thanks to everyone who has shared insights so far.

[Wyamphri]

No Carver? Sadness :c  Definitely one of my favorite masters to play though, as you've said, takes alot of skill and her entire crew lives and dies by positoning.

Once you get candy, dora, and kade in their crew, your opponent isn't allowed to have fun anymore 😛

I still have yet to try rider, although I understand ride with me is great, I just always struggle to find room to fit things in, in this crew. I just always struggle what to take and what to cut

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Wyamphri said:

No Carver? Sadness :c  Definitely one of my favorite masters to play though, as you've said, takes alot of skill and her entire crew lives and dies by positoning.

Carver sold out while I was humming and hawwing about whether or not to buy a new crew! It is a shame, as Dreamer is my other master.

[Wyamphri]

Awwww that sucks! When the opportunity presents itself, and the stars align, having him and kade get 6 executes a turn is just brutal haha 

Making someone ditch 6 cards or stones is just mean ...

[Maniacal_cackle]

As for what to cut for rider, I think I'll probably try running Teddy or Carver, but not both at a time. What do your lists look like? I think I'd go with:

• Pandora & Geist
• Teddy
• Hooded rider
• Kade
• Candy
• Sorrow
• 9 flexible stones

As a standard ish list. Pandora seems more geared to building to internal combos and seems less geared to building to the objectives? Might swap in Iggy a lot more once I can.

[LeperColony]

I'm interested in trying Wrath with Pandora.  Anyone had any luck with it?

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I'm interested in trying Wrath with Pandora.  Anyone had any luck with it?

Definitely complements the bubble crew strategy. Also combos well with poltergeist potentially, as violent ghosts will be super potent. Although could be too much bubbling, maybe swap him with Kade?

[Regelridderen]

 With Pandy, I’m always having problems selecting beaters - except for Kade, cause come on a murder baby, how cool is that.

Hoody Rider he’s got some moves Mv7, Ride with me, Decent damage but he is particularly good vs. bubble crews, which Pandy already Excel against. But Ruthless is King particularly vs Ressurs.

Hinamatsu She brings speed and resilience, there aren’t much Armor in Neverborn, and she’s got it along with a death-by-a-thousand-papercuts approach. Her makes her work independently. And she’s got the Lure to bring your crew forward and mess with opposition.

Miss Ery our big bruiser capable of dealing out 4 min.3 attacks with Candy. Coordinate attacks with Kade. I love the big bear. But I’m always weary about her Df4 - especially when facing Ruthless opponents.

Carver is deceptively amazing, the amount of WP duels opponents lose makes him incredibly sturdy. His flame breath is amazing when facing bubbles, along with Draw Essence and of course a stat6 Glimpse. And Pandy can give him Execute or min4. + Ruthless and Henchman makes him into one of the most reliable models, whether you send him off to his own thing or bring him into the bubble.

- 

But another model deserves an honorable mention :

Serena Bowman heal and condition removal is always great. She has great synergy with Teddy and Carver, and her Hole in the Wall trigger for Twist Reality is great for take Prisoner or just triggering Kade’s Pounce. 
 

I’ll be facing Lucius in Reckoning tomorrow, where I’ll be bringing :

Doras Nightmare
Size: 50 - Pool: 7
Leader:
  Pandora
Totem(s):
  Poltergeist
Hires:
  Miss Ery
  Candy
  Serena Bowman
  Baby Kade
  The Carver

I’m constantly teetering between exchanging either Carver or Miss Ery for the Rider, as I’m expecting the main beatdown to come from Agent 46 and the Pale Rider at range, meaning my Terrifying and Manipulative is worthless. But I hope to be compensating with Goody Basket and a Bottle of Painkillers. 

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Pandora

Mood swings is one of the most powerful abilities in the crew. Winning initiative is a BIG deal in many games, and if you position Pandora correctly, you can just completely negate your opponent's initiative advantage no matter how high they cheat. Definitely worth getting Pandora into the action - as long as they can't penetrate her

Solid point; it's a very good ability, but I wouldn't abuse it; Mood Swing cost cards or pass tokens so you either give up your hand or a lot of activation control doing it.

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Teddy

I have played with him once, but he adds so much to the crew. As a solid tank, Kade can lure him forward turn one, and then Teddy is available to countercharge anything that alpha-strikes Kade.

1 Interesting strategy about him. You can give him fast with Candy, between Armor+1 and Regen+1 he will shrug off the damage. In a Pinch you can even give him fast with the stunned with Glimpse of Insanity if Candy has no good targets and it's not close enough to use the basket. 1 extra attack in excange for the triggers and the bonus action may be worth it.

2 hours ago, LeperColony said:

I'm interested in trying Wrath with Pandora.  Anyone had any luck with it?

I think he'd be solid, but I haven't tried him myself. It seems a very bubblish style and a bit hard to execute well tho.

I'd consider 1 Cyclops to create Ice Pilars and 2 Lyssas (they are quite tanky for a 4SS near of a Pilar and can generate sin tokens with Bring it); the Doppleganger would also be solid imo (Misdirected rage with stat 7 may force enemies to use their good attacks in allies, Massive club is a range 2'' min 3 attack and it may also copy Destructive Performance). If you manage to put 2 enemy models near of each other with sin tokens and keep them there (engaging them or using conditions like slow or staggered); they won't be able to do anything.

I'd try something like this: Pandora, Poltergeist, Candy, Wrath, Doppleganger, Cyclops, Lyssa, Lyssa, Changeling/Sorrow. 6SS.

7 hours ago, Wyamphri said:

No Carver? Sadness :c  Definitely one of my favorite masters to play though, as you've said, takes alot of skill and her entire crew lives and dies by positoning.

That's interesting. I didn't think he were a good leader material outside of Henchman Hardcore... could you elaborate?

Which models do you usually include? How do you guarantee a high number of executes without Pandora's Despair's Influence? Do you mix Nightmare and Woe or is it mostly a Woe crew?

[Angelshard]

@Ogid I think Wyamphri meant no carver is sad, but pandora is one of his favourite masters. I don't think he meant carver as master.

@Maniacal_cackle have you tried a changeling yet? Being able to give out suits or using the grasping aura or healing without activating candy. Woes have some of the best tacticals to copy. 

Another really good model to include is emissary. Use misery to push models into hungry markers and laugh. 

 

 

[Wyamphri]

Yeah sorry haha Carver is such a cool model imo and he's pretty good in the crew I find. Always seems to vastly out perform my teddy 

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, Angelshard said:

Another really good model to include is emissary. Use misery to push models into hungry markers and laugh.

mmm, interesting one. I didn't come up with it but it makes sense; which models do you include with him in the crew?

[Angelshard]

Incorporeal works great as they ignore the terrain. 

Lyssas are great as they can apply staggered to make the emmisarys attack harder to avoid or they can trigger misery off the emmisarys tome trigger for an additional damage.

Aversions can passively send the model that moved out of the marker straight back into it or scatter them back into it in their own activation. 

Sorrows can be used to engage something inside a marker and drain it. If it tries to kill the sorrow it takes damage for each attack. 

The idea is that the emmisary blasts a couple of different models to get markers on them and then you use Incorporeal models to kill whatever is in the makers. Use candy to heal them from outside and have pandora do her thing. With range 8" and a 50mm base you have quite a large threat area for the emissary. 

If you activate grasping tentacles on either a changeling, the emissary or pandora most models won't be able to leave a marker. Between the half movement and the 2" reduction a model in the middle of a marker will need to move 6" to clear the marker. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I’ve used Wrath with Pandora, I find him a pretty effective addition to the crew, and I tend to use him as a bodyguard/enabler for Candy.

I love Teddy but lately, since I’ve been using him more, I find Teddy slightly harder to use with Pandora since to get the most value you need to flurry, and I often find I just don’t have the card, since I’ve been abusing Mood Swings more and more.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I’ve used Wrath with Pandora, I find him a pretty effective addition to the crew, and I tend to use him as a bodyguard/enabler for Candy.

I love Teddy but lately, since I’ve been using him more, I find Teddy slightly harder to use with Pandora since to get the most value you need to flurry, and I often find I just don’t have the card, since I’ve been abusing Mood Swings more and more.

 

Yeah, I'm starting to feel that,  but focus helps. Hinamasu seems awesome for the pass token for mood swings though.

[scratchnsniff]

Only a little bit of love for aversions here? I love em. Pandy, poltergeist and an aversion together are a real nuisance for the opponent with the geists aura and aversions ability dovetailing very nicely and adding another layer of protection for Pandy. 

My Flexi list usually looks like:

Pandy

Poltergeist

Candy

Aversion X 2

Kade

Teddy

Iggy

There's enough movement and positioning ability, plenty of killy-ness, control and scheme running for me there before I start thinking of swapping in hinimatsu/doppelganger/rider.

 

 

 

 

[Regelridderen]

On 12/8/2019 at 2:28 AM, Fetid Strumpet said:

I love Teddy but lately, since I’ve been using him more, I find Teddy slightly harder to use with Pandora since to get the most value you need to flurry, and I often find I just don’t have the card, since I’ve been abusing Mood Swings more and more.

I rarely use Mood Swings more than once a turn. You don’t need to dictate your opponents whole turn, but just rattling him, denying him access to a key model, before tearing its head off is golden. If at the same time, you can force a model reserved for late turn activation - such as one with Manipulation. You’ve really thrown a spanner in the works. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Regelridderen said:

I rarely use Mood Swings more than once a turn. You don’t need to dictate your opponents whole turn, but just rattling him, denying him access to a key model, before tearing its head off is golden. If at the same time, you can force a model reserved for late turn activation - such as one with Manipulation. You’ve really thrown a spanner in the works. 

I have had two games where I used it twice to kill an enemy master before it activated. So I think there are some scenarios where you gotta use the cards.

But even then, one for flurry should be possible if you save cards. Just raises the question if it is worth it (for instance, sometimes at that point I just have severes left in hand).

[Regelridderen]

@Maniacal_cackle sure there will br circumstances, where its advantageous to swing moods more than once. Like anything, its more of a guideline than a hard rule. 

Its just, Malifaux is a game of resource management. You can do a lot of things, but you need to keep in mind, look ahead and prioritize, what the important actions are, what will give you the biggest bang for the bucks. Whether its Mood Swings or Flurry.

[Ogid]

6 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Its just, Malifaux is a game of resource management. You can do a lot of things, but you need to keep in mind, look ahead and prioritize, what the important actions are, what will give you the biggest bang for the bucks. Whether its Mood Swings or Flurry.

Yep, and also customice your crew for your own style if that works for you; if a player really like to use Mood Swings several times a turn, then some extra card draw or pass token generation may help.

[Regelridderen]

Absolutely. There is no set way - and there’s also an opponent to take into account

[goth]

I find that if you hire black blood shaman it can ‘fly with me’ Iggy, Candy or Kade (all three are living and love focus) and you can’t get that kind of cost effectiveness in any other keyword when looking for Sz 1 Living models 

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, goth said:

I find that if you hire black blood shaman it can ‘fly with me’ Iggy, Candy or Kade (all three are living and love focus) and you can’t get that kind of cost effectiveness in any other keyword when looking for Sz 1 Living models

Honestly BBS are great additions to any crew being able to pulse focused, chip healing and evolve into Matures; fly with me is the icing of the cake.

However Fly with me compete with the Focused pulse... wouldn't it be better paying 1 SS extra to include a Young Nephillim if you are looking for a taxi? They are as fast as the BBS and much better fighters. Or are you able to use both?

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing to be careful of with the BBS is 22% of the time you're going to be dealing 3 damage even when you relent (flipping all moderates or above). That is a pretty disastrous outcome on candy or kade, so might be better to stab something else.

[Ogid]

47 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing to be careful of with the BBS is 22% of the time you're going to be dealing 3 damage even when you relent (flipping all moderates or above). That is a pretty disastrous outcome on candy or kade, so might be better to stab something else.

Another Nephilim is the ideal choice but that's quite a few extra points, so maybe something like Serena or Pandora is a safer target... it's not bad that Kade drink some of his own medicine tho XD. Another way is using a H2W model like the rider, versus these it'll only "fails" 13.1% of the time instead of 22.8% (asuming a fresh deck)

However BBS also heals 1 to nearby living models at the end of its activation, so it'd deal a net 2 damage (and only 1 versus a Neph or an Armored living model), which may be swiftly patched by serena or a Changeling copying the basket. But it's true that is something to keep in mind tho.