Hoffman Discussion

[Whut]

Hey all,

I haven't seen any Hoffman discussion, let's start some. It seems to me like he's more of a beater/supporter in this addition who spams Armor +2 models and then heals them for 3 and just overruns opposing crews who can't run enough anti-armor to compensate.

With Melissa Kore and Envy the crew puts out enough ranged damage to be a threat, Peacekeeper is nigh unkillable, and Soulstone Miners as always help with schemes that require mobility.

A thought that has come to mind for me is "Let's say Parker Barrows goes against Hoffman. What does Parker's crew even do other than plink for 1 damage and then get overwhelmed? It's just too much armor to get through."

What are some of your thoughts?

[Gnomezilla]

My immediate thought is that a Parker who isn't planning to scheme-run rings around Hoffman for his victory isn't approaching things the right way--but we're in Arcanists, so I suppose bringing Hoffman to such a pool isn't optimal either.

I have been running a different sort of stompybot lately (gasp!) but am still surprised at how little ping damage I have seen as incoming tech, apart from a stubborn McCabe. Even with double soul stone cache supplies, using stones to prevent 1 ping damage at a time is too wasteful to contemplate for any armor user, let alone one whose stompybots have had the -1 wound pool penalty applied. The automaton only heals back 1, not many, pings (and if it IS Parker and by extension Mad Dog over there, I'm not clustering in blast range just to have little heal buddy give me 1 back).

[Ludvig]

You should be able to find something that ignores armour out of keyword in each facrion. Just like last edition you need a stable of models for certain defenses. Most of his crew is also pretty easy to target with wp attacks and have trouble with stuff like terrifying since a lot of them have poor willpower. Use focus and pick targets carefully if you can't ignore armour. 

[mythicFOX]

I’m a fan of Hoffman and have been playing him a fair bit.  

If you need to brawl toe to toe with the enemy he’s one of our best options.  The 2” push from Power Transfer, plus power counter bonuses, access to fast, and condition removal, make the crew very efficient from a combat micro-game perspective.  The constructs have access to a Swiss-army-knife of aggressive options; precise, prevents triggers, irreducible damage, stunned, execute, and high weak damage packages, this lets us hire the right weapon to take on the enemy.  

Toss and the 2” push allow the crew to be surprisingly fast out of the gate and catch an opponent napping.

At the low end of the batting order both Wardens and Watchers are really useful pieces rounding out a solid crew.

The downside is the crew has a challenge projecting it’s power to multiple fronts, chasing down a mobile enemy, and/or redeploying across the board after that initial burst of speed.

Ignores armour is a bit of red herring IMO, it’s good against them but hardly earth shattering.

[Bort]

I would like to tap into the collective knowledge of the player base here.  (Sorry, its long... but I have a bunch of questions)

I'm new to the game in terms of actual crew ownership. I only have Hoffman and only a few of the Augmented options, so I would like to get a few insights on list building.  

As a new player I do find the game very overwhelming in terms of selecting a crew.  The "declare your faction & leader" before list building means you actually have to know a LOT of things / crews / mechanics just to have a sensible list.  So let's assume I don't know the enemy, what are the good includes in this army.

I'm going to make a few statements, and then you can all tell me how wrong I am please.

First of, I feel that Hoffman, more than any other masters really want to be looking at Constructs above any non-construct.  And even more he really wants to be looking at mostly taking keyword models because of the Power token usage.

As far as versatile additions goes it just feels like the Arcanist options are much better than the Guild options.  (I realise I'm in the arcanist section of the board, so I might get biased answers here). But barring upgrades I don't see any reason to declare Guild rather than Arcanist. Many of the good Arcanists versatile models also happen to be constructs (Envy, Arcane Emissary, Mechanical Rider, Soulstone Miner, Arachnid Swarm)   
Ps. based on what I picked up here on the forums the last 2 seems to be very strong options for any Arcanist list.

So... maybe direct question that can be answered.

a) Should I be focussing more on keyword, or worry about getting some versatile models in there?  I can see myself quickly getting out of hand playing a bunch of versatile constructs and end up with a completely non functioning squad.

b) Is there anything that's almost an auto-include for Hoffman if you play him?

c) Assuming I can just ignore my enemy army because I don't know what's coming anyways, how does my army selection change based on the Strategy?

d) What is the worst nightmare matchups for him? Not that I can avoid it, just you know, to manage expectations.

 

[Bort]

On 12/9/2019 at 12:33 PM, mythicFOX said:

Ignores armour is a bit of red herring IMO, it’s good against them but hardly earth shattering.

In my last game it was a nightmare. 2 Ronin went through my force like a hot knife through butter.  They killed a Hunter and Joss in one turn.  Maybe it doesn't sound like much, but when a 6 point model kills a 8 point one, and another a 10 point one in one activation it really hurts.

[DuBlanck]

I'm reading cards in preparation to get him on the table, and it really seems like the Armour ignore issue is fine except into one faction so far - Outcasts being my primary concern, as @Bort said, because there are a whole bunch of already good attacks with built-in armour ignore or highly-accessible triggers.

Are there any other factions it would be rife in?

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Bort said:

In my last game it was a nightmare. 2 Ronin went through my force like a hot knife through butter.  They killed a Hunter and Joss in one turn.  Maybe it doesn't sound like much, but when a 6 point model kills a 8 point one, and another a 10 point one in one activation it really hurts.

From the sounds of that the Ronin would have gone through just about any model they faced in those turns, getting 10points of damage in 1 activation is going to kill most things, even without the armour ignoring capabilities.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, DuBlanck said:

Are there any other factions it would be rife in?

I wouldn't pick him into NVB. The ping damage is strong in that one and so are Wp crews; Pandora with Misery and versus the low Wp of Hoffman will have a field day; Nephs have Black Blood, Titania can field high ping damage list with Emisary and Killjoy (see blood pact), Dreamer has a few low range guns that ignore armor and will also exploit the low Wp (the armor is good versus stitcheds tho), IR upgrade has blade rush that is ping damage, Hinamatsu spam attacks and has an antiarmor trigger... plus there are other possible tricks there like Angel Eyes stonning Armor Piercing (or worse, Agent 46 copying her gun in a Lucius crew) or BBS pulsing Focused in beaters and just bruteforcing through armor.

[ebolazaire]

13 hours ago, Adran said:

From the sounds of that the Ronin would have gone through just about any model they faced in those turns, getting 10points of damage in 1 activation is going to kill most things, even without the armour ignoring capabilities.

Weeeeell... She had help to be fair

It really was 3 activations, one of which was a master activation, and 3 soulstones used for triggers:

Ronin 1 engages the hunter and softens him up, this ronin didn't survive the turn.

Ronin 2 engages and finishes off hunter and uses "Reposition" trigger to engage Josh.

Viktoria Chambers charges Josh and uses her full turn to attack and spends 3 stones for the "That One Counts as Mine" trigger each time to enable the Ronin.

[Bort]

21 minutes ago, ebolazaire said:

Weeeeell... She had help to be fair

It really was 3 activations, one of which was a master activation, and 3 soulstones used for triggers:

Ronin 1 engages the hunter and softens him up, this ronin didn't survive the turn.

Ronin 2 engages and finishes off hunter and uses "Reposition" trigger to engage Josh.

Viktoria Chambers charges Josh and uses her full turn to attack and spends 3 stones for the "That One Counts as Mine" trigger each time to enable the Ronin.

Hunter didn't die to Ronin 1 because Black Joker damage was flipped.

Ronin 2 still took 3 attacks to kill Joss.  Even if it was her own activation with Flurry she has 3 attacks, ignoring armor, which requires 1 flip of Severe and he would be dead.  (assuming I don't spend stones to keep him alive, which I clearly could and should have done)

 

The only point I was trying to make is that I don't agree with the statement @mythicFOX made that Ignore armor is a red herring.  When used correctly as my opponent clearly did, it hurts, A LOT.

 

*Edit.   By design armor is compensated for both by lower DF and lower amount of wounds.  So ignoring the armor is good against Hoffman.

[Bort]

So, very open ended question.

If I build a list, and end up in the 46 - 47 SS range.  Is it going to be better to just take the stones, or add the Mobile Toolkit?

My feeling is that the Field Repairs will be able to heal more than a stone damage prevention will prevent.

 

So far I have advantages of taking the stones.

• Toolkit has to be at the right place at the right time.
• Using a stone to prevent damage can keep a model alive. Dead models can't be healed.
• Insignificant means he is not scoring points.

Advantages of taking the toolkit

• Its extra activation.  I play quite reactively generally. (Which may be a bad thing and maybe requires its own thread. )
• It only has the 3 wounds, but with 1 armor and higher defense than any other Augmented it should at least survive a shot or two, and this
  means other guys are not taking shots.
• 3/4/5 heal is really good.  

 

[CD1248]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

So, very open ended question.

If I build a list, and end up in the 46 - 47 SS range.  Is it going to be better to just take the stones, or add the Mobile Toolkit?

My feeling is that the Field Repairs will be able to heal more than a stone damage prevention will prevent.

 

So far I have advantages of taking the stones.

• Toolkit has to be at the right place at the right time.
• Using a stone to prevent damage can keep a model alive. Dead models can't be healed.
• Insignificant means he is not scoring points.

Advantages of taking the toolkit

• Its extra activation.  I play quite reactively generally. (Which may be a bad thing and maybe requires its own thread. )
• It only has the 3 wounds, but with 1 armor and higher defense than any other Augmented it should at least survive a shot or two, and this
  means other guys are not taking shots.
• 3/4/5 heal is really good.  

 

Depends on if I'm taking Joss, he needs stones much more often than Hoff, both defensively and offensively since he lacks Power Converter for free suits on his GREAT attack triggers.

In non-Joss lists I've had good success going in with 0 or 1 stone, SS Miner gives enough leeway to stone for cards on critical turns or if Hoff eats a random RJ, and you don't usually need them beyond that.

[Irritated Walrus]

On 2/3/2020 at 12:15 AM, Bort said:

So, very open ended question.

If I build a list, and end up in the 46 - 47 SS range.  Is it going to be better to just take the stones, or add the Mobile Toolkit?

My feeling is that the Field Repairs will be able to heal more than a stone damage prevention will prevent.

 

So far I have advantages of taking the stones.

• Toolkit has to be at the right place at the right time.
• Using a stone to prevent damage can keep a model alive. Dead models can't be healed.
• Insignificant means he is not scoring points.

Advantages of taking the toolkit

• Its extra activation.  I play quite reactively generally. (Which may be a bad thing and maybe requires its own thread. )
• It only has the 3 wounds, but with 1 armor and higher defense than any other Augmented it should at least survive a shot or two, and this
  means other guys are not taking shots.
• 3/4/5 heal is really good.  

 

If you have S.S. Miners x 2, I take zero stones and build a 50 point list. By the end of turn two you'll have four stones. 

[Bort]

Hmmm, the common solution here seems to be the Soulstone miner.

I don't have any, and never played them. (only have a handful of Augmented guys so far)    So between the hate I see from other factions, and love I see from this faction I'm guessing I should look into getting at least one.

[NoisyAssassin]

They're practically impossible to find, so unless you want to proxy don't worry about them until their 3e box releases (I've seen a grand total of 3 [single models, not boxes] available on the secondhand markets since I started playing in Oct, and they're sold out literally everywhere). 

[theamazingmrg]

13 hours ago, Bort said:

Hmmm, the common solution here seems to be the Soulstone miner.

I don't have any, and never played them. (only have a handful of Augmented guys so far)    So between the hate I see from other factions, and love I see from this faction I'm guessing I should look into getting at least one.

 

13 hours ago, NoisyAssassin said:

They're practically impossible to find, so unless you want to proxy don't worry about them until their 3e box releases (I've seen a grand total of 3 [single models, not boxes] available on the secondhand markets since I started playing in Oct, and they're sold out literally everywhere). 

The 3E box (Crack in the Foundations) should be coming at the end of this month, so not that long to wait for them.  And I am definitely waiting for them!

[NoisyAssassin]

Oh dang, I missed that! Given that the Jan releases still aren't out, they probably won't actually release in Feb. But there's a light at the end of the tunnel!

[grim_stoki]

I've been messing around with Hoffman lately. I don't own any of the Guild constructs, so it's been an Arcanist heavy crew:

 

Hoffman

Mechanical Attendant

Soulstone Miner (Magical Training)

Steam Arachnid Swarm (Soulstone Cache)

Mech. Rider

Joss

Watcher

Mobile Toolkit

I absolutely wrecked Wong with this crew, took a loss to Shenlong and Molly and managed a draw vs. Parker. Here's what I've found:

• This crew has a lot of high TNs you need to hit, 5s and 7s are very precious and hard to come by. I think you can expect Hoff to put fast  on one, maybe two models per turn.
• Fast spider swarms are disgusting. 20" threat range is absolutely insane
• Mech Rider is meh. I initially took her to pull Hoffman around with ride with me, and serve as a damage soak for his protected. In practice, people very rarely target Hoffman, and there's enough pointless constructs in this crew (attendant, toolkit) for his protected. It's nice she can score Detonate on her own with Revel in Creation, but I'm going to leave her out except in very specific pools. I may experiment with using her as a scrap generator.
• Joss is a murder machine, with a potential min 4 irreducible damage. 

[frumpypigskin]

7 hours ago, grim_stoki said:

I've been messing around with Hoffman lately. I don't own any of the Guild constructs, so it's been an Arcanist heavy crew:

 

Hoffman

Mechanical Attendant

Soulstone Miner (Magical Training)

Steam Arachnid Swarm (Soulstone Cache)

Mech. Rider

Joss

Watcher

Mobile Toolkit

I absolutely wrecked Wong with this crew, took a loss to Shenlong and Molly and managed a draw vs. Parker. Here's what I've found:

• This crew has a lot of high TNs you need to hit, 5s and 7s are very precious and hard to come by. I think you can expect Hoff to put fast  on one, maybe two models per turn.
• Fast spider swarms are disgusting. 20" threat range is absolutely insane
• Mech Rider is meh. I initially took her to pull Hoffman around with ride with me, and serve as a damage soak for his protected. In practice, people very rarely target Hoffman, and there's enough pointless constructs in this crew (attendant, toolkit) for his protected. It's nice she can score Detonate on her own with Revel in Creation, but I'm going to leave her out except in very specific pools. I may experiment with using her as a scrap generator.
• Joss is a murder machine, with a potential min 4 irreducible damage. 

It's been a while since I've used her but I found drawing 3 or 4 cards with mech rider a turn in turn 2 or 3 can be clutch in some situations.

[CD1248]

26 minutes ago, frumpypigskin said:

It's been a while since I've used her but I found drawing 3 or 4 cards with mech rider a turn in turn 2 or 3 can be clutch in some situations.

While that's certainly good, i've never found it to be 11ss good, and believe me I've tried to force her to work.

The biggest problem I think is the min2 damage and no triggers that help in the offense department. She doesn't usually have the spare time to focus a bunch, and the few ways Arc has to hand it out feel better used on other models that have 6 damage severes or better triggers.

[grim_stoki]

Quote

It's been a while since I've used her but I found drawing 3 or 4 cards with mech rider a turn in turn 2 or 3 can be clutch in some situations.

I tend to keep my tokens for damage reduction / revel, so I've never tried the big draw with ritual. Between arcane reservoir and soulstones, I don't find myself needing to fish for cards too often. It is nice when you have the odd tome to drop.  

 

Quote

The biggest problem I think is the min2 damage and no triggers that help in the offense department. She doesn't usually have the spare time to focus a bunch, and the few ways Arc has to hand it out feel better used on other models that have 6 damage severes or better triggers.

 

I agree min 2 is just too low for a 11 stone model. And I'd much rather put focus or fast on Joss. 

[Ogid]

12 hours ago, CD1248 said:

The biggest problem I think is the min2 damage and no triggers that help in the offense department. She doesn't usually have the spare time to focus a bunch, and the few ways Arc has to hand it out feel better used on other models that have 6 damage severes or better triggers.

Guns with min 3 damage are very rare. Also she may get a built in to damage once per turn with Diesel Engine (and even twice per turn in later turns if she reactivate herself) or reactivate a beater if more damage is needed.

She isn't the best rider damage wise, but damage isn't all. In turns 3-5 she may drop 3-4 scheme markers while still moving 12-19'' per turn among other shenaningans (just by herself, without fast).

[CD1248]

10 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Guns with min 3 damage are very rare. Also she may get a built in to damage once per turn with Diesel Engine (and even twice per turn in later turns if she reactivate herself) or reactivate a beater if more damage is needed.

She isn't the best rider damage wise, but damage isn't all. In turns 3-5 she may drop 3-4 scheme markers while still moving 12-19'' per turn among other shenaningans (just by herself, without fast).

By the late turns she's either token starved due to needing them to stay alive, or dead. And if you put Diesel Engine on her then she's 13ss, I guarantee you could get equal work out of less ss of models.

If she's left to run a flank unopposed by serious threats then she can do a bunch of stuff sure, but that's equally true of something like a coryphee (6ss) or spider swarm (8ss), both of which get significantly more out of Diesel Engine by being minions.

[Ogid]

Idk... I find her excelent and I'd trade the Hooded Rider with his min 3 damage greatsword for her hands down.