Jump to content

What would you Errata? (Arcanist)


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, CD1248 said:

Off the top of my head? Archie, Manos, Midnight Stalker, Ninja Samurai, Gracie, Dead Rider, Pale Rider, Hooded Rider, Minako Rei, Hinamatsu.

I'm assuming you've stapled Diesel Engine to the Swarm, because without On The Move the Swarm is pretty darn easy to lock down with anything tanky and on cost, and thus can't scheme well unless you leave it unopposed.

Archie is also too good, Manos doesn't hit as hard and is maybe too good, Midnight Stalker isn't a beater, Samurai aren't schemers, Gracie doesn't hit as hard (although Ride With Me is crazy), Riders are 11ss and none of them hit as hard, Minako requires support and is still too good and Hinamatsu isn't a schemer (and also she doesn't hit as hard). Either remove nimble so they are just beaters who hit way harder than their price range or remove inbuilt onslaught and :+flip to damage so they are just tanky scheme runners who can murder things if you have masks.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 91
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

<Mod hat> I've edited the topic title as it was getting hard to work out which thread was which <\Modhat> In answer to your question, No I don't think they should be errata'd at this

Fun fact: Silent Ones can eat corpses through Ice Pilars

This just really feels like the "All of my problems are nails, the only tools I need are hammers" analysis method.  

RE: Firebranded, I feel like the most frustrating part of them is that the heal is only based off of Burning.  IMO it'd be much more valuable if it was a normal 1/2/3 flip but you could spend Burning to give it a +, or something like on a trigger models near the target can spend 1 Burning to heal 1 as well.  But needing to spend Burning to heal at all, when Burning is a precious resource for the crew kind of hurts.

Also, I played in a tourney yesterday where my fellow Arcanist and I were stuck slogging it out in an Ironsides mirror match and we were both commenting all game on how brutal Fitz was for both of us to deal with.  He's basically the best thing defensive in the faction and I definitely think he could handle being on the nerfing block.  What do you all think of halving his aura, so a3 instead of a6?  Compensation could be to make the aura affect anyone instead of M&SU but just the sheer # of models he gives the better-than-Armor to is pretty rough

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, forgot about the Swarm.  Personally I think the only thing it actually needs is to have his melee Stat go down to 5 (so 6 if b2b).  Just making the 4 hits less likely to get off, and at least make the player put some more effort in to get that Stat 6 should help.  Alternatively, could swap out Onslaught for a different "attack again" trigger that isn't on a Mask, so it still has its movement shenanigans built in but needs to again put more effort in for the 4 attacks.  Or just make it a 9 cost and call it a day there.

Also, I know this isn't Arcanist specific but eh, the Armor Piercing trigger and those other "Ignore Armor and nothing else" effects really ought to also ignore Shielded.  Or, if my dreams come true, change it to ignore all damage reduction except by Soulstones (because things like Fitz's aura and many, many other better-than-Armor effects in the game being only ignored by Irreducible definitely still bugs me).

  • Thanks 1
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be fine with Swarms going up a stone in cost. I feel like that's relatively safe.

Amina shouldn't stop the attack from charging on her own Obeys. She's nerfing herself.

Saboteurs need SOMETHING to keep them alive. Stealth might be too powerful, but they really die quickly.

The Captain could use a nudge. Maybe a -1 to cost and/or a bump to the target number on his shockwave. Alternatively, allow his to negate the damage/burning of his shockwave on friendlies to get a little of his old M2E utility back.

I get use out of Steamfitters most of the time, but it still feels like they lack enough of the support that people think they're meant to be performing. Needing a 7 and a tome to give M&SU focused is pathetic when looking at something like a Freikorps Engineer.

Give Medibots a purpose in Hoffman or make them Versatile/M&SU

I don't like giving out pass tokens due to Totems coming in multiples (feels like a punishment) Perhaps an ability on Mechanical Doves that makes all of them only count as one model for purposes of Pass Token generation?

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, retnab said:

Also, I played in a tourney yesterday where my fellow Arcanist and I were stuck slogging it out in an Ironsides mirror match and we were both commenting all game on how brutal Fitz was for both of us to deal with.  He's basically the best thing defensive in the faction and I definitely think he could handle being on the nerfing block.  What do you all think of halving his aura, so a3 instead of a6?  Compensation could be to make the aura affect anyone instead of M&SU but just the sheer # of models he gives the better-than-Armor to is pretty rough

I think he's perfectly balanced around mediocre stats and pretty bland actions. The dude doesn't even have a trigger on his entire card.

  • Agree 1
  • Respectfully Disagree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, retnab said:

RE: Firebranded, I feel like the most frustrating part of them is that the heal is only based off of Burning.  IMO it'd be much more valuable if it was a normal 1/2/3 flip but you could spend Burning to give it a +, or something like on a trigger models near the target can spend 1 Burning to heal 1 as well.  But needing to spend Burning to heal at all, when Burning is a precious resource for the crew kind of hurts.

 

I think in absence of something else on their card, yes the heal is a bit weak. 

But I like the concept of having to balance your resources (burning). Some of your models don't really want burning (firestarter, versatile, OOK) or don't need it (eternal flame, Carlos doesn't need >1 unless using him to teleport Golem). Also you often aren't overly fussed with his much your opponents models are burning. This all gives you interesting choices on how to use the resource and the heal plays into this. 

Firebranded just needs a little more utility (pushes, pyre manipulation) and/or movement. Even a push trigger on the heal would help a little. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

DECEMBER KEYWORD

I think the December crew needs work. The Raspy thread right now (which I totally made and abandoned cause life interfered) is talking about a core and then just filling with versatile, or just taking her as a second master. Like to me that signals a major problem with how a crew works together! The individual models are probably fine (ice dancers, hoarcats, etc) but they're clearly lacking something that makes people want to pick them. You generally don't have a problem fielding a mostly Wildfire, Academic/Elemental, MS&U or Performer crew- why is December the one people don't want to take?

One of my main concerns in playing Raspy is the lack of card draw. I think her crew desperately needs it especially since Raspy's throwing cards away every activation. Using 4 cards out of a 6/7 hand on my master's abilities without any ability to refresh the hand outside an 11 point model... it doesn't feel great.

I think the number of Grim Feast's should be reduced (maybe off the Dec Acolytes or ice dancers?) to make way for a more useful bonus action that's about card draw. Grim Feast is fine but it's not particularly helpful across so many of the crew, especially because Silent Ones exist. Often I'm just not using my bonus actions which gives a natural advantage to the opponent. I wish hoarcats had a better back of card too but they're so defensively great already that I'm not sure what I'd include. Maybe a trigger to push out of engagement for more movement shenanigans to get out of combat? +1 damage if the opponent is slow?

Snowstorm's bonus push should be allowed to be on all December models. You can use it on FOUR models in the whole game and three of them are ice gamin!! Come on 😧 that's awful. Especially since Raspy's so slow. I don't see why it can't work on all models with the December keyword.

----

FIREBRANDED

I agree the Firebranded need a little something. Their heal is super lackluster and consumes resources to do it, and the pulse to remove burning is terrible, I hate that :(I was theorising it earlier with a mate and I was thinking a delayed heal could be fun!

Make it so instead of taking damage from the burning condition at the end of turn, flip it so the model heals the amount of damage they would've taken. Cap at 4 instead of 3 because it's a delayed heal? & then maybe reduce burning by the amount you heal (4 health = 4 burning reduction) so you can't constantly stack it and turn Kaeris into an unkillable tank. It's at the end of turn so losing burning isn't as impactful, doesn't pull it away from other models, and the opponent could still play around it. It'd still be situational, of course- wouldn't work on the Golem/Gamin but i think it'd be a fun and powerful ability that is limited by being at the end of the turn so the opponent can counter it! Plus it's potential to counter Assassinate would be brilliant :D

Otherwise, a simpler solution is make it a 1/2/3 flip, and make reducing 3 burning on models around you a CHOICE, and you heal +1 for each model whose burning is reduced in this way to a maximum of 2. Would be a very clutch heal for the wildfire crew.

As a wildfire player- Iggy is %^&*(@# obnoxious. Oh my god. Misery vs a melee crew is the worst thing to play against. You're being yoyo'd across the board constantly.

----

OTHER

I think stealth on Saboteurs would be fine? they're squishy and generally get one shot anyway, might as well make them walk close to do it :P I don't take them just because they die way too often to actually get to USE them. I mean, hoarcat has stealth AND manipulative.

I think Fitz is great but also fine. There are way better models than him. Mediocre stats and forced to be near the frontlines to get the most out of him with no triggers? he's fine.

No comment on the Swarm because I haven't tabled it yet, I like playing keyword over versatile. SS Miners... now there's a thorny debate.

I also think the Eternal Flame needs some help. Poor little dude. +1 health or demise eternal (its in the NAME!!!) would be enough. I think his actions are fine.

I don't own Marcus so I can't comment but the Chimera keyword is something I have my eye on as a potential concern. I think some models are poorly costed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

+++

Steam Arachnid Swarm:
+1 SS... or melee 5

SS Miner:
Actually too good, certainly because of the actual scheme pool... but the other side is: if every body play them at least one on majority of list it's certainly because the arcanist faction is designed for have one SS miner in each crew (and 1 Magical training) for be corectly balenced... so if they ve been nerfed... the entire faction certainly need something else.

One way for nerf them is simply to make them insignificant when they unbury... (and remove the stun)

For me Arcanist made good result at the release but clearly if you know how to play against our good bot versatille + itemed models it's more easy to counterpick our crew.
Because we are near obliged to use our good versatil bot (and god... they are good !)... we don't take time to use our other models...

 

---

ACADEMIC:
Globaly alway's take Sandeep / Bana's and Kandara (beacuse they are all synergic)... the rest is completely hazardous...
Alway's wan't to take him with an other boss... so it's certainly because his main team have a lack of somethings...

Ox Mage: 1 can be ok (only play it one time on 5 sandeep games)... But maybe they need something if they are 3 (a balenced one ;) no't like in M2e )

Shastar vidya gards: They need something... Actually you clearly prefer majority of our versatil bot instead of this guys... real armor... can multi focus... 

 

DECEMBER:
Nead a little bit of draw...

Grimfeast: for all models it's in the lore... but generaly useless...

Sacrifice to december: the same... maybe this abilities can prevent slow...

Snowstorm: How poor he is for me... even in a December crew i prefer payd +1 for have the captain for a same but better job... at list give them a december global push, a 2' attack, a tome in is "ice tornado"...

 

CHIMEBEAST:
Really love to play them but...
The team need something agains't a Ulix team... and certainly some other things more generaly... like a real beast scheme runner...

Moleman: maybe just a "hard to kill" and he can be cool to use... because actualy never heard some one take them in a team...

Hoarcat: no interest in a Marcus crew... maybe they need a up on they're tundra hunter... ( + on ice pillar AND other beast) and an other zero like amnush

Cojo: cost is little too expensive in my opinion... you alway's prefer play some one else...

Order initiate: actualy they are just useless... they need something like a limited lamarkian evolution (+ 1 for 2 mutation or maximum limited to +1)

 

AUGMENTED:

Medibot: never need it in an hof crew (or ramos) where majority are not living... you alway's prefer toolkit... actually i really think the medibot is useless

 

M&SU:

Fitz: For me really no't need to make somethings for Fitz.. genrealy he do nothing exept protection. He's gread but fine... and he's certainly an autocinclude in a MSU crew... so...

Mouse: He is really the one who dead (too) quick... because you globaly need him in a bubble... and you'r adversary never hesitate between all MSU and him (and generaly you take MSU in Reco or turf)... so maybe an up for him his to become "insignificant" ^^

Steamfitter: don't work corectly... Simply gave back them they re own capacity: tool for the job... and remove Power converter (they alway's have an other use for them...)

 

WILDFIRE:
Globaly the team need more way to have pillar (not just carlos who become an obliged auto take for that...)

Firebranded: read someone call them trash... i'm ok with that... They really need something to be at least ok... (lot of post speack of them so...)

 

FOUNDRY:
No a familiar boss for me, seem ok exept i alway's find the GOlem a little bit under the other one...

 

PERFORMER:
Seem ok for me

 

VERSATILE:

Saboteur: Find them good but effectively they are really squishy and stealth can be a solution...

Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people seem not to like the Medibot being Augmented because Hoff's crew is mostly constructs. To me, that was kind of the point. Because its worse in his crew he gets it cheaper, its only worth 4 stones in his crew. For everyone else its better, its worth 5 stones. This opinion is based on me hearing that in the beta the Medbot was cost 5 versitile, then changed to cost 4 Augmented so that its the same cost for everyone else but cheaper for Hoff cuz its less useful. 

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

A lot of people seem not to like the Medibot being Augmented because Hoff's crew is mostly constructs. To me, that was kind of the point. Because its worse in his crew he gets it cheaper, its only worth 4 stones in his crew. For everyone else its better, its worth 5 stones. This opinion is based on me hearing that in the beta the Medbot was cost 5 versitile, then changed to cost 4 Augmented so that its the same cost for everyone else but cheaper for Hoff cuz its less useful. 

True, but I would rather pay zero stones and not take it at all than pay a discount, unless I have failed to learn from M2e and think that bubbling at 3” is a good idea.

 

I would like steamfitter to regain Tools for the Job. Hoffman still isn’t taking them as they aren’t constructs (so dropping Power Converter and the entire power token mechanic is fine), may as well make them able to buff M&SU a bit more reliably.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Kaeris_Main said:

DECEMBER KEYWORD

I think the December crew needs work. The Raspy thread right now (which I totally made and abandoned cause life interfered) is talking about a core and then just filling with versatile, or just taking her as a second master. Like to me that signals a major problem with how a crew works together! The individual models are probably fine (ice dancers, hoarcats, etc) but they're clearly lacking something that makes people want to pick them.

I don't know a lot Rasputina but i see the same thing with colette. The performers with two keywords (ice dancers and carlos) both seems better in the other crew, even if i keep playing carlos.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, grundil said:

I don't know a lot Rasputina but i see the same thing with colette. The performers with two keywords (ice dancers and carlos) both seems better in the other crew, even if i keep playing carlos.

Hi Grundil!

Agree with you about Carlos and Ice Dancers. They seems far better in their other Keyword.

I have seen the battle report of your game versus Molly. I would have taken Mechanical Rider and a Showgirl instead of Carlos and Ice Dancer + Magical Training.

But I don't really know what could be made to make both of them more appealing in Performer Keyword.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Vangerdahast said:

Hi Grundil!

Agree with you about Carlos and Ice Dancers. They seems far better in their other Keyword.

I have seen the battle report of your game versus Molly. I would have taken Mechanical Rider and a Showgirl instead of Carlos and Ice Dancer + Magical Training.

But I don't really know what could be made to make both of them more appealing in Performer Keyword.

 

Yeah agree with you. I keep enjoying carlos but ice dancer really need a move bonus action which doesn't require ice pillar.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/9/2019 at 9:52 AM, Kaeris_Main said:

One of my main concerns in playing Raspy is the lack of card draw.

I do struggle heavily with accepting that perhaps two cards in my hand can go to the rest of the crew, while Tina needs to force through 2-4 attacks and discard for triggers - the alternative seems to be play her as a Shockwave and Pillar dispenser, which isn't very interesting (or terribly effective, given the low damage).

Running the creww off the top of the deck makes them feel extremely pillowfisted.

I could get behind Grim Feast being draw a card or heal 1/2/3, but I think I have Feasted maybe a handful of times in a bunch of games - the relevant models (and victims) are rarely in position to do so.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DuBlanck said:

I could get behind Grim Feast being draw a card or heal 1/2/3, but I think I have Feasted maybe a handful of times in a bunch of games - the relevant models (and victims) are rarely in position to do so.

Fun fact: Silent Ones can eat corpses through Ice Pilars :D

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll echo the sentiment that others have over the soulstone miner. In my opinion the model is not actually too powerful, but the fact that it is a must take/can take in every crew means that something needs to be changed. Same applies to the arachnid swarm to certain degree. Having a model that is such a no brainer auto take undermines the purpose and flavor of the keyword system.

As a example of this being a problem there have been a couple of instances in the recent history of magic the gathering where a card that is not particularly overpowered (by objective standards) was banned simply because it was an auto take in every deck. One in particular sounds like a similar case to SS miner: smuggler's copter. The card wasn't oppressive or format defining but because it handed the player free cards and was an artifact, it was an auto include in every standard deck. This sounds like the miner being available to every arcanist and handing you free SS all game. Eventually copter was banned, not because of a power imbalance but because it's ubiquity pushed out other choices and reduced deck diversity.

EDIT: oh, also molemen and order initiates both suck and it makes marcus sad

  • Agree 1
  • Respectfully Disagree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

I'll echo the sentiment that others have over the soulstone miner. In my opinion the model is not actually too powerful, but the fact that it is a must take/can take in every crew means that something needs to be changed. Same applies to the arachnid swarm to certain degree. Having a model that is such a no brainer auto take undermines the purpose and flavor of the keyword system.

As a example of this being a problem there have been a couple of instances in the recent history of magic the gathering where a card that is not particularly overpowered (by objective standards) was banned simply because it was an auto take in every deck. One in particular sounds like a similar case to SS miner: smuggler's copter. The card wasn't oppressive or format defining but because it handed the player free cards and was an artifact, it was an auto include in every standard deck. This sounds like the miner being available to every arcanist and handing you free SS all game. Eventually copter was banned, not because of a power imbalance but because it's ubiquity pushed out other choices and reduced deck diversity.

EDIT: oh, also molemen and order initiates both suck and it makes marcus sad

idk, we have 4 arcanist players in my meta (including me) and I have yet to see or use the SS miner or Swarm for that matter. The one time i saw them was at NOVA, so its possible that our meta is a fluke (I dont think any of us own the models lol) but I think its perfectly acceptable to build a competitive crew w/o the Miner. I know our shop has some in stock, or at least did before the edition change, but no one has felt the need to grab them up. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I know our shop has some in stock, or at least did before the edition change, but no one has felt the need to grab them up. 

What's this mythical shop called, and do they accept online/over the phone and shipped orders? I'm pretty new and can't find them anywhere (I don't feel a need to really take them in Foundry, but I've got a Ramos crew on deck, and want them for a Henchman Hardcore list as well). 

Link to post
Share on other sites

For the Moleman, the only thing I would change is to allow Network of Tunnels and Tunneling to place the Moleman into base with Friendly OR Enemy scheme markers. In fact I'd probably have it say "place this model in base contact with target Marker" (I think Strategy Markers cannot be targetted by default. If I am incorrect, I'd word it "target non-Strategy Marker") It gives them a purpose "counter scheming" but is limited by the 10" range unless your enemy attacks them. A good opponent wont do this unless they are planning on one shotting them (which is easy to do unless Marcus invests resources into them like ss cache or armored plating) but it would give them a cool synergy because you could use Marcus' Protected to force enemies to target Moleman and trigger Burrow. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

15 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

...its possible that our meta is a fluke...

I would say that it is, I'm guessing it just a matter of not owning the models and if no one local does then it doesn't come off as a must take. Reading through arcanist lists from tournaments the SS miner is everywhere, and every tactica and deep dive mentions it.

8 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

For the Moleman, the only thing I would change is to allow Network of Tunnels and Tunneling to place the Moleman into base with Friendly OR Enemy scheme markers

I'd like that honestly, gives them mobility reminicent of foundry's walk the rails or the sorrows misery loves company from neverborn. Teleporting to enemy scheme markers means you could capitolize off of a scheme heavy enemy crew and increase their mobility without wasting ap dropping scheme markers.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

For the Moleman, the only thing I would change is to allow Network of Tunnels and Tunneling to place the Moleman into base with Friendly OR Enemy scheme markers. In fact I'd probably have it say "place this model in base contact with target Marker" (I think Strategy Markers cannot be targetted by default. If I am incorrect, I'd word it "target non-Strategy Marker") It gives them a purpose "counter scheming" but is limited by the 10" range unless your enemy attacks them. A good opponent wont do this unless they are planning on one shotting them (which is easy to do unless Marcus invests resources into them like ss cache or armored plating) but it would give them a cool synergy because you could use Marcus' Protected to force enemies to target Moleman and trigger Burrow. 

The change in Network could be fine, but in Tunneling is maybe too much; it's like giving Arson to a 4SS model, but with no TN.

I'd give them a way to bury or reposition themselves (not sure if it'd be too powerful tho). Something like this:

Digging A Hole For Myself: During the end phase, if it isn't engaged, this model may discard a card and gain stunned. If it does so, bury this model.

Digging A Hole For Myself: At the start of this model activation, if it isn't engaged, this model may discard a card and gain stunned. If it does so, place it into base contact with a friendly scheme marker.

The other player may counterplay just engaging them with one of his own cheap models, the moleman has the same functionality that right now but can also disable its own Df trigger for greater mobility that turn.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/9/2019 at 10:52 AM, Kaeris_Main said:

DECEMBER KEYWORD

Snowstorm's bonus push should be allowed to be on all December models. You can use it on FOUR models in the whole game and three of them are ice gamin!! Come on 😧 that's awful. Especially since Raspy's so slow. I don't see why it can't work on all models with the December keyword.triggers? he's fine.

I'd be ok if he could use it on himself at least, to have some setup for that charge action. OR since fluff wise she's basically Silent One (aka small rasputina), Ice pillar making should be part of her arsenal.

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information