What would you Errata? (Arcanist)

[Nikodemus]

1 hour ago, Atinrik said:

I would recall that our Emissary is the only one without Hard to Kill

Ours is also the only one with a "discard before you cheat" aura on a stat6 min3 beater

[Morgan Vening]

On 12/13/2019 at 6:36 PM, Nikodemus said:

Ours is also the only one with a "discard before you cheat" aura on a stat6 min3 beater

Also, a potential 16" threat range.

36" with Amina. Which I REALLY want to do, just for the LOL's.

Third activation of the first Turn (second if you can manage it, though it seems like you need Myranda to do that),

1) get a Scheme Marker 6" up the board.
2) Amina activates, Walk the Line with Burnout on Bully McBullface (6"), who with Armor and Regen doesn't get hurt. Shielded +2 on Bully. Obey, to get Bully to Charge (+7")
3) Bully puts up his Aura, Charges 3 times (+21"), then drops the Thunderous Blow.
4) Everyone within 2" of Bully must make a TN13 Mv duel (needing to discard to cheat), or gain Slow.

That kind of disruption if you can get Bully into the right place*, could be worth the admission. And the look on your opponent's face should be priceless. A 10W model with Armor 1, Shielded 2, and potentially mass slow on your crew, that early, either means dealing with and wasting even more actions in a game where every action matters, or leaving it alive to cause havok on Turn 2.

* You probably don't need all those activations to get into the enemy's crew, which means you can use Rampage and Shove Aside to move into position to make sure as many models as possible are in place for the Thunderous Blow trigger.

And if you give him Soulstone Cache, you're not having to worry about having high suited cards for his triggers.

Yeah, I'm not thinking he needs to be improved.

 

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, Morgan Vening said:

Also, a potential 16" threat range.

36" with Amina. Which I REALLY want to do, just for the LOL's.

Third activation of the first Turn (second if you can manage it, though it seems like you need Myranda to do that),

1) get a Scheme Marker 6" up the board.
2) Amina activates, Walk the Line with Burnout on Bully McBullface (6"), who with Armor and Regen doesn't get hurt. Shielded +2 on Bully. Obey, to get Bully to Charge (+7")
3) Bully puts up his Aura, Charges 3 times (+21"), then drops the Thunderous Blow.
4) Everyone within 2" of Bully must make a TN13 Mv duel (needing to discard to cheat), or gain Slow.

That kind of disruption if you can get Bully into the right place*, could be worth the admission. And the look on your opponent's face should be priceless. A 10W model with Armor 1, Shielded 2, and potentially mass slow on your crew, that early, either means dealing with and wasting even more actions in a game where every action matters, or leaving it alive to cause havok on Turn 2.

* You probably don't need all those activations to get into the enemy's crew, which means you can use Rampage and Shove Aside to move into position to make sure as many models as possible are in place for the Thunderous Blow trigger.

And if you give him Soulstone Cache, you're not having to worry about having high suited cards for his triggers.

Yeah, I'm not thinking he needs to be improved.

 

A dirty thing I like to do is take the Mech Rider and the Effigy plus upgrade. It just so happens that both come online at the same time. Turn 3 Rider can start reactivating models and thats also when the Effigy evolves. A reactivating Emissary (who heals twice from Regen) has been super effective in the games I've used it. And starting as the effigy has no real downside because

Rider cant reactivate until turn 3

You can use turns 1 and 2 to build up Focus

The Emissary is just gonna regen back up. Tbh I think the Regen combined with the ability to be useful at range as the effigy makes our effigy the best to take the upgrade on. 

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Rider cant reactivate until turn 3

Technically it can reactivate in turn 2. It needs SS cache, stone the suit AND a 6; which is quite expensive, but a double activation of the right model in turn 2 may be game changing.

So with both and Amina/Hoffman (for fast) you can organize your own Rodeo in turn 2

[korgal]

I come to you to share my experience concerning Colette Du Bois and to have your opinions and feedback to know if you think she deserves an errata or not.

I have several 10enes of games with Colette as an opponent, I started Malifaux at the end of V2 with the Justice team, during this period I learned to play and did 2 or 3 tournaments.

At the start of V3 I continued to play with Justice and my friend to continue with Colette but the gameplay changed and this change was very disturbing because I couldn't find a solution to defeat Colette and the games all ended on defeats or ties (which was not the case in V2), I therefore continue to test other profiles with Justice but nothing changed lol.
I had in mind to play Misaki at the end of V2 and I must admit that the gameplay of V3 made me jump, so I bought the Misaki team with samurai, Fuhatsu and the 3 Dragons, I love the gameplay of this team and Misaki to a gameplay that looks a little like Colette (disappearance and reappearance). Since I played with this team against Colette, I was able to improve my number of equality and victory but it remains very very complicated and I have to win 1 game out of 4 (Reckoning strategy), So I think there is has too strong things at Colette.

I noticed that Colette makes half see 3/4 of the points of a complete game.
I tried several times the combined assassination on Colette but it has enormous defensive powers.

- Automatic defensive trigger Fade away which allows to reduce the damage by 2 then bury themselves (by the way, use an SS which allows to reduce up to 5 damage), I find it too strong because even if I shoot a red jocker to damage with Misaki for example, Colette only takes 2 damage and buries herself and remains untouchable for the rest of the tour. In my opinion this power is far too powerful.

- Serene countenance (negative draw on attack), I have nothing to say against that but this effect is cumulative with Distracted, which makes a big defensive advantage :).

Of course, once Colette is buried, she will remain so until the end of the turn, will choose to activate Colette last and this without movement penalty (unlike Misaki ^^), to play her turn by ending with a Sword trick, use an SS in order to have the trigger to bury yourself and continue like this every round while being untouchable.
I think the sword trick trigger is too powerful and allows you to be invulnerable (apart from some rare exceptions like death marshal recruiters who can attack people buried, improvement for the ten thunder "Masked agent" but this remains anecdotal and limited and in any case it requires coming to the corp à corp and Colette will end up buried with sword trick if she wishes).

Another thing, concerning Colette, she and her team often have the power don't mind me, I have nothing against that and it's part of the gameplay but I must say that with Colette's ability to disappear and reappear almost n matter or on the table (3 inches from a friendly figurine or a marker), this allows it to appear anywhere and come to remove enemy markers even if engaged, to place markers etc (especially with the Soulstone miner in the team lol) ...

I ask myself and ask you the question to know if this profile should not deserve a modification?
I do not find much on the internet because Colette is little played, I do not see her often in English and American tournaments, so difficult to have enough statistics and feedback ...

Sorry for my English but I use Google trad because I am very bad at English ...

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, korgal said:

I come to you to share my experience concerning Colette Du Bois and to have your opinions and feedback to know if you think she deserves an errata or not.

I have several 10enes of games with Colette as an opponent, I started Malifaux at the end of V2 with the Justice team, during this period I learned to play and did 2 or 3 tournaments.

At the start of V3 I continued to play with Justice and my friend to continue with Colette but the gameplay changed and this change was very disturbing because I couldn't find a solution to defeat Colette and the games all ended on defeats or ties (which was not the case in V2), I therefore continue to test other profiles with Justice but nothing changed lol.
I had in mind to play Misaki at the end of V2 and I must admit that the gameplay of V3 made me jump, so I bought the Misaki team with samurai, Fuhatsu and the 3 Dragons, I love the gameplay of this team and Misaki to a gameplay that looks a little like Colette (disappearance and reappearance). Since I played with this team against Colette, I was able to improve my number of equality and victory but it remains very very complicated and I have to win 1 game out of 4 (Reckoning strategy), So I think there is has too strong things at Colette.

I noticed that Colette makes half see 3/4 of the points of a complete game.
I tried several times the combined assassination on Colette but it has enormous defensive powers.

- Automatic defensive trigger Fade away which allows to reduce the damage by 2 then bury themselves (by the way, use an SS which allows to reduce up to 5 damage), I find it too strong because even if I shoot a red jocker to damage with Misaki for example, Colette only takes 2 damage and buries herself and remains untouchable for the rest of the tour. In my opinion this power is far too powerful.

- Serene countenance (negative draw on attack), I have nothing to say against that but this effect is cumulative with Distracted, which makes a big defensive advantage :).

Of course, once Colette is buried, she will remain so until the end of the turn, will choose to activate Colette last and this without movement penalty (unlike Misaki ^^), to play her turn by ending with a Sword trick, use an SS in order to have the trigger to bury yourself and continue like this every round while being untouchable.
I think the sword trick trigger is too powerful and allows you to be invulnerable (apart from some rare exceptions like death marshal recruiters who can attack people buried, improvement for the ten thunder "Masked agent" but this remains anecdotal and limited and in any case it requires coming to the corp à corp and Colette will end up buried with sword trick if she wishes).

Another thing, concerning Colette, she and her team often have the power don't mind me, I have nothing against that and it's part of the gameplay but I must say that with Colette's ability to disappear and reappear almost n matter or on the table (3 inches from a friendly figurine or a marker), this allows it to appear anywhere and come to remove enemy markers even if engaged, to place markers etc (especially with the Soulstone miner in the team lol) ...

I ask myself and ask you the question to know if this profile should not deserve a modification?
I do not find much on the internet because Colette is little played, I do not see her often in English and American tournaments, so difficult to have enough statistics and feedback ...

Sorry for my English but I use Google trad because I am very bad at English ...

As a Thunder's player you should looove playing against Colette because you have a Generic upgrade that removes resistance triggers (which Fade Away is). Trying putting that on Misaki or Ottoto and watch her crumple.

In addition, Ressistance Triggers can only be declared from OPPOSED duels. If Misaki drops her Shockwave on Colette she CANNOT use Fade Away

If you can stun Colette, she cant declare Fade Away. Misaki can do this with Abandon Honor. Your opponent does have the option to discard a card to prevent it, but this can help set you up for Execute. 

Colette's ability to unbury near a friendly is very strong, however it also means you know where Colette is going to be. In addition, it means you can severely hamper Colette's game by ignoring her and killing the rest of her crew, thereby not having to deal with Fade Away and severely limiting her mobility. 

Distracted and Serene Countenance are a very strong combo. You can get around it expensively by using Focus and a Stone for a positive. Or, as a Thunders player, you can hire a Tanuki who ENDS distracted TO GIVE YOU FOCUSED, which is a very efficient way to deal with the problem. You can also drop Shockwaves, which dont incur Distracted. If all else fails, just dont attack Colette. If you dont think you can get through both effects this turn, go do sonething else, scheme, anti-scheme, attack something else, etc. 

Dont Mind Me is a great ability, but Last Blossom is uniquely suited to deal with it. Thunder's Archers, Wokou Raiders and Katanaka Crime Bosses are uniquely suited to counter scheme, gaining bonuses for removing enemy scheme markers at range without Interacting.

I think a Last Blossom crew should actually do fairly well against Colette, because they have the tools in Keyword and Faction to deal with her Shenanigans

[Zebo]

Curious that you had problems with Colette when using Justice. The Marshall crew has the Jury and Dead Marshall Recruiter who can give love to Colette still when buried. 

[korgal]

Thank you for your answers, but I think I expressed myself poorly on my expectations. I am not looking for advice to play against Colette, I ask for opinions concerning her power and the fact that certain capacities seem to me too strong.

Here are my ideas:
- remove the trigger which allows Colette to bury herself with Sword Trick.

- Remove the damage reduction on the defensive trigger.

- Removing the automatic trigger on the defense is also a solution

- Optionally, put a movement penalty if it digs up late.

[DuBlanck]

She is powerful, and you need to know how to play against her, and there are many specific tech pieces you can hire to make it easier.

No, she doesn't need to be nerfed.

[Ogid]

Colette is a powerful master and had been in the roster of players that got the first position in tournaments; however (afaik) she doesn't seem to be overperforming that much to need a nerf. There are a lot of powerful things in this game.

Versus her try not to tunel vision in killing her if your crew doesn't have the tools to deal with her trigger; doing that she is geting a lot of value and meanwhile her models are getting the job done. She needs to be teched against as discussed above, both TT and Guild have some tech versus her (and her crew).

[Mycellanious]

5 hours ago, korgal said:

Thank you for your answers, but I think I expressed myself poorly on my expectations. I am not looking for advice to play against Colette, I ask for opinions concerning her power and the fact that certain capacities seem to me too strong.

Here are my ideas:
- remove the trigger which allows Colette to bury herself with Sword Trick.

- Remove the damage reduction on the defensive trigger.

- Optionally, put a movement penalty if it digs up late.

I cannot help you there, I havent seen Colette on the table yet

[TeddyBear]

although the arcanists are definitely a tier faction, I don't think these two pieces are to be nerfed.
like no other pieces of other factions, for the moment.

this edition of the game is still too young: there are masters that still lack parts of their keywords.

a separate discussion should be made for all-stars lists, but it is not necessary that the pieces have to be nerfed, maybe they could only change the costs or the hiring rules.

instead we could talk about masters that should be enhanced, or simplified in use:
that could be more useful.

[Nagi21]

38 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

although the arcanists are definitely a tier faction, I don't think these two pieces are to be nerfed.
like no other pieces of other factions, for the moment.

this edition of the game is still too young: there are masters that still lack parts of their keywords.

a separate discussion should be made for all-stars lists, but it is not necessary that the pieces have to be nerfed, maybe they could only change the costs or the hiring rules.

instead we could talk about masters that should be enhanced, or simplified in use:
that could be more useful.

Or we could talk about nerfs to models that are seen across the board as too good in the thread about errata'ing models.  Also a cost increase and hiring rules are both nerfs.

This edition has been out for nearly a year, a year and a half if we count the beta.  The game is not too young for balance changes anymore.

[Nagi21]

9 hours ago, Ogid said:

Colette is a powerful master and had been in the roster of players that got the first position in tournaments; however (afaik) she doesn't seem to be overperforming that much to need a nerf. There are a lot of powerful things in this game.

Versus her try not to tunel vision in killing her if your crew doesn't have the tools to deal with her trigger; doing that she is geting a lot of value and meanwhile her models are getting the job done. She needs to be teched against as discussed above, both TT and Guild have some tech versus her (and her crew).

Colette herself is pretty good, but her crew suffers from issues.  The real thing that makes her powerful is that the current GG rules are built for crews that have a lot of AP, and a lot of mobility, which Colette has in spades.  The other reason she does good in tournaments is because she's so front loaded and tournament games rarely get to turn 5.  Most Collette's I see and play start with somewhere around 11-12 models and have no issues getting 3 points T2, and usually a 4th on T3.  Granted most games that get into Turns 4 and 5 usually have just Collette and two or three other models on the table, but the damage is already done at that point, particularly in a time limited game like tournaments.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

5 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Or we could talk about nerfs to models that are seen across the board as too good in the thread about errata'ing models.  Also a cost increase and hiring rules are both nerfs.

This edition has been out for nearly a year, a year and a half if we count the beta.  The game is not too young for balance changes anymore.

Agreed.

Are people still thinkin' Soulstone Miners are a completely balanced model? It seems to have an almost obligatory position in most Arcanist crews, regardless of the Keyword. It might be solved through GG1, but right now they just make some schemes too easy to score I feel. 

[Bort]

7 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

This edition has been out for nearly a year, a year and a half if we count the beta.  The game is not too young for balance changes anymore.

Just playing Devil's Advocate. 

 

There are what? About 57 keywords.

That means 3249 games just to have each keyword play each other once. With x4 for the four possible strategies and x4 for the possible deployments.

That's 51984 games.   The complexity of this game is such that it will never be "solved" or "balanced".  There will ALWAYS be people feeling something is unbalanced.   

 

 

Basically the game is always ready for changes/updates ... and never ready to state whether it is now balanced.  Personally I feel a lot more time needs to pass before changes are made. Too many models don't exist yet.   But then... I only just restarted playing again, and I play about a game a month. So my perception of "too many changes too fast" is not a real good baseline.

 

 

Not saying that this isn't a productive thread.    Obviously the pro players will pick up which models are slightly above the curve and focus on them. And then in time people will learn how to counter that.  

 

 

[Nagi21]

14 minutes ago, Bort said:

That means 3249 games just to have each keyword play each other once. With x4 for the four possible strategies and x4 for the possible deployments.

That's 51984 games.   The complexity of this game is such that it will never be "solved" or "balanced".  There will ALWAYS be people feeling something is unbalanced.   

All of that is true.  That being said, if in those 51984 games there are about 10000 arcanist games, and certain versatile models are picked in 8000 of those, that implies that those models are good regardless of circumstances, which indicates that they are either too strong, or have no weaknesses or downsides.

You did just start a month ago but we've gone basically a year and have had multiple things come to light that need to be fixed.  Hell, Obey was "nerfed" before 6 months had even passed, but nobody complains about that because it's widely accepted as needed.  Still, according to these last handful of posts, the game was "too young" and "a lot more time needed to pass", before we made those changes.  The reason nobody complains is because the only people it affected were the ones using the optimal strategy (see: Dreamer and Zoraida players).  Optimal strategy for Arcanist relies on a lot of powerful versatile models that have very little to no counters, outside of a few niche models.  It is well accepted outside of the Arcanist circle (and even a lot of Arcanist players) that there are models that are well undercosted and/or well overpowered accessible to all crews, which need fixing.  The only people I see saying the game is "too young" are people who stand to lose something when their models are on the chopping block.

[Adran]

28 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Or we could talk about nerfs to models that are seen across the board as too good in the thread about errata'ing models.  Also a cost increase and hiring rules are both nerfs.

This edition has been out for nearly a year, a year and a half if we count the beta.  The game is not too young for balance changes anymore.

Or, you know, just over 7 months since release, just over a year if you want to include the public beta (but some things did change during that, so its not completely valid).

Some things aren't right. Some things are right and people just play them wrong. (such as calculate the probabilities). That's where "the game is young" does still  apply. (I spend a lot of time in the rules forums, and lots of people that complain about power levels are also making rules errors in those games). If it were up to me (it isn't) then I'd want a comprehensive FAQ, a new gaining grounds, and only errata things that are completely game breaking.  Then when people are all playing the same game we'd have a better idea of what is too strong (and it would probably be 80-90% the same list as we have now, but that 10-20% of models that didn't really need errata and are now unplayable would thank me).

Obey wasn't nerfed - the strategy was changed. We also know that GG1 is due out soon. Which may well make a huge difference in the power levels of some of the models. So, yes its worth talking about models which are too strong at the moment. That doesn't always mean that they will still be as strong in GG1. In which case they don't need errata. So from that point of view, it is still a  young game. (There are rules out there that don't have models yet.  Those will be much less played from a practical point of view.  )

 

There will be changes, but thinking that the game is "solved" and the optimal picks are finalised is as naïve as thinking nothing needs changing. If there were no errata I would still predict new crew combinations rising to the top over the rest of this year.

[TeddyBear]

@Nagi21 Obey was no nerfed, they only change the strategy... note: also Amina exploited obey.. an no.. i'm not purely an arcanists player. 😉 

However in this post we are talking everyone (me too) for nothing because:
https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/149189-adepticon-details/?tab=comments#comment-1208189

as i know they, they have alredy fixed several things, for sure!

 

 

 

 

 

[Nagi21]

13 minutes ago, Adran said:

There will be changes, but thinking that the game is "solved" and the optimal picks are finalised is as naïve as thinking nothing needs changing. If there were no errata I would still predict new crew combinations rising to the top over the rest of this year.

I mean you counter one crazy idea with another then.  Also I don't see this game handling no errata well, as an entire faction (guild) is widely accepted as being horrible to play comparatively to the other factions.  Some things need to be buffed, some things need to be nerfed.  We don't need to wait until we're halfway to 4e before deciding to make noticeable changes...

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

All of that is true.  That being said, if in those 51984 games there are about 10000 arcanist games, and certain versatile models are picked in 8000 of those, that implies that those models are good regardless of circumstances, which indicates that they are either too strong, or have no weaknesses or downsides.

You did just start a month ago but we've gone basically a year and have had multiple things come to light that need to be fixed.  ...

I have no facts (actual game / tournament data) to stand on. Nor do I have a comprehensive list of battle reports.   So I can't really comment on your 8000/10000 statement. May be completely true.  May be perception. May be local meta. 

 

All I can say is that with the complexity of the game I feel people should be looking at ingame (as in currently already existing and maybe undiscovered options) instead of continually changing the game.  Because guess what... they errata things now, and next week we will simply be complaining about the next thing that is "just above the curve". Only, we will call it "absolutely broken and horribly OP" instead of "just above the curve".

 

With access to info as it is (internet and hive mind thinking) this is the way of all games. You have the "best in slot" option that everyone uses.  Make a change to "best in slot" and all it does is make room for the next "best in slot" option.  If all things were equal, well, then nothing would be good and we might as well just use our fate decks to play solitaire.    

 

Constant changing and errata is a viable way of doing things.  I simply like more time to explore options before chasing down the next culprit.

 

 

[SerZaka]

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

as an entire faction (guild) is widely accepted as being horrible to play comparatively to the other factions.

The guild subforum is the valley of tears since the start of the closed beta lol

[korgal]

Another idea about Colette.

For "fade away", change the tempo When resolving to When succeding. What do you think ?

I think errata are part of the life of a game and it's normal that the game evolves constantly.

The guild really deserves a general up.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

But why do you want to kill her in the first place? Can't you just kill everything else? I don't get it.

[dannydb]

I don't think colette need changing. She has a very brittle keyword outside of herself and duet and even then colette has counters and duet has weaknesses. 

 

There are thing much more in need of a nurf than her. 

 

In terms of nurfs spiders should lose the inbuilt masks and miners should change busy drilling to insignificant the turn they unbury. 

 

In terms of buffs I just think December needs a more diverse 0 (maybe something to turn markers in to ice pillers maybe?) beasts generally need to lose a point and firebranded need to do something useful