What would you Errata? (Arcanist)

[Nikodemus]

2 hours ago, dannydb said:

and miners should change busy drilling to insignificant the turn they unbury. 

What's the purpose of this change?

[SerZaka]

Probably to avoid some unavoidable Outflank or Hold Up Their Forces . They require 2 Miners however .

They are also kinda good for Vendetta. They bite and then you bury them forever until the last activation of the game (but I think in this case Insignificant would not count for the second point in the last turn, because the turn is already over when you should score the point)

[CD1248]

12 hours ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Agreed.

Are people still thinkin' Soulstone Miners are a completely balanced model? It seems to have an almost obligatory position in most Arcanist crews, regardless of the Keyword. It might be solved through GG1, but right now they just make some schemes too easy to score I feel. 

SS Miners are only good at schemes that just require you to stand in a particular place, they're so-so at schemes that require a single interact, and actively bad at ones that require multiple interacts. Vendetta they're only good at if the target model is isolated, they aren't so tanky that they can survive significant retaliation.

GG1 could fix that in an instant if "just stand there" schemes become less prevalent.

[Nagi21]

12 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

But why do you want to kill her in the first place? Can't you just kill everything else? I don't get it.

The problem with Collette is that all her points are front loaded.  Killing everything else isn't hard, but she brings so many good, cheap models that by the time it's turn 4 and it's just her and maybe a few henches, she's up 5-2/3.  In tournament game which rarely go past Turn 3/4, this means she's very good competitively compared to a late game steamrolling crew (Yan Lo).

She's also mobile enough to continue to score in those later turns even if you are scoring your own, meaning she doesn't give up that early lead easily, even if it's just her and one or two others.

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

The problem with Collette is that all her points are front loaded.  Killing everything else isn't hard, but she brings so many good, cheap models that by the time it's turn 4 and it's just her and maybe a few henches, she's up 5-2/3.  In tournament game which rarely go past Turn 3/4, this means she's very good competitively compared to a late game steamrolling crew (Yan Lo).

She's also mobile enough to continue to score in those later turns even if you are scoring your own, meaning she doesn't give up that early lead easily, even if it's just her and one or two others.

Turn 4 is not early. In fact its literally the latest you can reveal a scheme and still score the end point. If Colette's opponent only has 2vp at the end of turn 4, something has gone VERY wrong for him, thats not an issue with Colette "scoring early."

Colette's mobility also comes from her having other models. She needs a target to presto chango and she unburies near friendlies, meaning if she only has 2 Henchmen left she can only pop up near them

[korgal]

5 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Le problème avec Collette est que tous ses points sont à chargement frontal. Tuer tout le reste n'est pas difficile, mais elle apporte tellement de bons modèles bon marché qu'au moment où c'est le tour 4 et que c'est juste elle et peut-être quelques poules, elle a pris 5-2 / 3. Dans un jeu de tournoi qui passe rarement après le tour 3/4, cela signifie qu'elle est  très  bonne en compétition par rapport à une équipe de steamrolling en fin de partie (Yan Lo).

Elle est également suffisamment mobile pour continuer à marquer dans les derniers tours même si vous marquez le vôtre, ce qui signifie qu'elle n'abandonne pas facilement cette avance précoce, même si c'est juste elle et un ou deux autres.

En fait, c'est exactement ce qui se passe sur chaque parti. À lui seul, il marque la moitié des points d'un match et le fait qu'il n'y ait pas de pénalité lorsqu'il est déterré, il le rend ingérable et il peut réapparaître n'importe où sur la carte et surtout s'il y a des mineurs de soulstone dans son équipe :). Aux tours 4 et 5, elle réapparaît généralement, supprime un marqueur combiné ennemi pour supprimer un point, elle continue son travail et termine la partie.

[Zebo]

Soulstone Miner indeed looks like needs some kind of limitations to their unstoppable mobility and nearly immunity to attacks. 

For example, a new tactical action that may only be taken when buried and allows to drop a "tunnel marker" Anywhere out of enemy deployment, and its "The Earth Beneath Your Feet" action states that it must unbury in base contact with a tunnel marker, so you would be pointing where is gonna unbury the miner before doing it (and a single miner couldn't bury and unbury in the next turn). 

[Adran]

5 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

The problem with Collette is that all her points are front loaded.  Killing everything else isn't hard, but she brings so many good, cheap models that by the time it's turn 4 and it's just her and maybe a few henches, she's up 5-2/3.  In tournament game which rarely go past Turn 3/4, this means she's very good competitively compared to a late game steamrolling crew (Yan Lo).

She's also mobile enough to continue to score in those later turns even if you are scoring your own, meaning she doesn't give up that early lead easily, even if it's just her and one or two others.

If you are commonly finding your games aren't reaching turn 4 or 5, then your meta might need to look to put more time on the rounds. I know there are some groups that struggle to get 5 turns in the time limit, but the core rules say its a 5 turn game, and the power levels of the game should be for those 5 turns. This may mean that some things don't appear in some peoples meta and others are more prevalent because of this time, but that's a function of the area meta rather than the intrinsic power level.

 

 

3 hours ago, korgal said:

In fact, this is exactly what happens on each part. By itself, it scores half the points of a game and the fact that it is no penalty when it is unearthed, it makes it unmanageable and it can reappear anywhere on the map and especially if there has the soulstone miners in his team :). On turn 4 and 5, generally she reappears, removes an enemy combined marker to remove a point, she continues her work and finishes the game.

It does really appear as if you are having problems with your opponents Colette, but my first suggestion is to changer your plan. Don't target Colette unless you need her off the table for that activation. If she is having to spend her own actions and stones burying then she is a lot less mobile. And all that effort you would normally put into killing a master can quickly remove the minions, and/or the scheme markers she needs to score and unbury. Or, if you need to kill Colette, do it with indirect damage - Shockwaves, pulses, blasts or even hazardous terrain. They all kill her with out her beign able to use her trigger. Stunned is a good condition to put in your crew.

Changing her trigger to after succeeding rather than after resolving would mean the damage prevention is pointless, and there are other models with the same trigger. (Sure if we are errataring, we can change the name so it doesn't matter).

 

Also, as a suggestion, try swapping crews. Very often I find the things that seem overpowered do require a lot of set up and control behind the scenes to work, that you often don't realise just by facing it. At the very least it gievs you a much better understanding of what the master ca and can't do, and where it is weak.

[Legislat]

Actually Collett is brutally effective not in keyword (except for Duet). Toss in Rider and Emissary with Soulstone cache, get yourself 10-12 soulstones with Collett in the first turn on Doves and you are set. This was the way second place player in brewmaster cup played. Almost took first. Very hard to kill models and 4 activations of Duet (without pass tokens!) starting turn 2 is really hard to play against. 

[Ogid]

On 2/12/2020 at 11:33 AM, Adran said:

Some things aren't right. Some things are right and people just play them wrong. (such as calculate the probabilities). That's where "the game is young" does still  apply. (I spend a lot of time in the rules forums, and lots of people that complain about power levels are also making rules errors in those games). If it were up to me (it isn't) then I'd want a comprehensive FAQ, a new gaining grounds, and only errata things that are completely game breaking.  Then when people are all playing the same game we'd have a better idea of what is too strong (and it would probably be 80-90% the same list as we have now, but that 10-20% of models that didn't really need errata and are now unplayable would thank me).

QFT. It's so important we all play the same game; most things are straightforward and easy to understand, but there are a few things that would benefice so much from an in deep clarification and a few examples.

6 hours ago, Legislat said:

Actually Collett is brutally effective not in keyword (except for Duet). Toss in Rider and Emissary with Soulstone cache, get yourself 10-12 soulstones with Collett in the first turn on Doves and you are set. This was the way second place player in brewmaster cup played. Almost took first. Very hard to kill models and 4 activations of Duet (without pass tokens!) starting turn 2 is really hard to play against. 

This is interesting. Do you recall which were the other models in his crew (there are 13SS remaining)? And how did he use the Emissary? Emissary with SS cache seems a bit overkill when there are models like Carlos/Cassandra or the Swarms.

And as this was a list using 2 SS cache and killing doves? Did the TOs allow both auras to stack? A.k.a kill a dove in range of both auras to get 2SS instead of 1? The wording of that aura could allow that but it's not 100% clear.

[Legislat]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

QFT. It's so important we all play the same game; most things are straightforward and easy to understand, but there are a few things that would benefice so much from an in deep clarification and a few examples.

This is interesting. Do you recall which were the other models in his crew (there are 13SS remaining)? And how did he use the Emissary? Emissary with SS cache seems a bit overkill when there are models like Carlos/Cassandra or the Swarms.

And as this was a list using 2 SS cache and killing doves? Did the TOs allow both auras to stack? A.k.a kill a dove in range of both auras to get 2SS instead of 1? The wording of that aura could allow that but it's not 100% clear.

Mobile toolkit + SS miner with magical training. Yes, we play it as stacking auras. Emisarry is face tanking with negation aura and rampaging all over. It is very hard to bring down with soulstone blocking and reduce and can shut down enemy crew very well almost by itself. Colette is everywhere, ss miner scores, Duet is scoring or hunting strays. This list is huge pain in the ass and we still struggle to think anything remotely effective against it. In emergency Duet can still heal like crazy and toolkit is very usefull.

[Nagi21]

21 hours ago, Adran said:

If you are commonly finding your games aren't reaching turn 4 or 5, then your meta might need to look to put more time on the rounds. I know there are some groups that struggle to get 5 turns in the time limit, but the core rules say its a 5 turn game, and the power levels of the game should be for those 5 turns. This may mean that some things don't appear in some peoples meta and others are more prevalent because of this time, but that's a function of the area meta rather than the intrinsic power level.

It's not just my meta.  Most meta's across the US go for 2.5 hour rounds.  It's not something that can be changed easily due to the venue required to host such a large amount of players and the space required.  30 minutes a around seems reasonable for most... and then you have Arcanists with 12 and 13 model crews with summoning...

[SerZaka]

The funny thing is that the 4th and 5th turn are like the most important and they last no longer than 30 minutes together. The last one sometimes like 5 minutes , degenerating in a " ok, I can't do that and that. You can basically score that", no flip included.

They should always be played . The first turn is kind of a time-stealer : a lot of activation and almost no Interaction between players ( except for Wedge or some skirmish) but it is still very Action-dense anyway because of the "play-by-himself" preparation game.

[DuBlanck]

On 2/14/2020 at 7:49 AM, SerZaka said:

The first turn is kind of a time-stealer... because of the "play-by-himself" preparation game.

I've heard more than a couple of folks, both in the podcastosphere and real world, say that your turn 1 should be taking over 30 minutes.

If it is casual beer night, fart around all you like, but tournament games should be with crews you understand and can macro out half of the activations in seconds each.

[SunTsu]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:32 PM, korgal said:

Another idea about Colette.

For "fade away", change the tempo When resolving to When succeding. What do you think ?

I think errata are part of the life of a game and it's normal that the game evolves constantly.

The guild really deserves a general up.

Essentially you asked a question but don't listen to the answers. Because you're sticked to the idea Colette needs a nerf.

No, she doesn't.

Probably you should simply understand you have the wrong approach to her in your games...

[korgal]

Ok thank you for your answer

[Zebo]

Anyways, there's no sense to have a defensive trigger that buries you and reduce damage, and make it "when succeeding", if you win the duel Colette doesn't suffer any damage.