What would you Errata? (Arcanist)

[Mycellanious]

There's been a significant amount of complaint about both the SS miner and the Arachnid Swarm. 

Do you guys think they should errata'd? If so, how would you change them?

[Adran]

<Mod hat> I've edited the topic title as it was getting hard to work out which thread was which <\Modhat>

In answer to your question, No I don't think they should be errata'd at this time. I think they are models that are easy to use and effective, but there are plenty of valid counter options out there, and if they are in a significant number of Arcanist lists, then you should start seeing the counters appearing.

I'm not saying they aren't too strong, I'm just saying I think that the edition is too young to see if these are too efficient for their cost. I'm not sure that they have the same perception of overpowered and unfun that some of the others do.

[Gnomezilla]

Definitely coming down on the side of the miner being fine. Restricting its interact action gave it enough of a brake on scheme running, and it actually pays a cost to produce a stone, unlike its competitor the prospector. Now if you want to say there are too many schemes in this pool which score solely based on positioning a friendly model correctly, I'm in agreement. Once those drop down to a more sensible ratio of total available schemes then the miner should drop back down to being a buff bot and not so much a VP generator.

[Vangerdahast]

Agree with Gnomezilla. The Soulstone Miner can be easily "nerfed" with new schemes. When Gaining Grounds Season 1 will be launched, some models will certainly become less efficient and others ones more efficient (and they will become the new "OP" threads).

Even if it don't solve all the problems, that's a good mean to rebalance the game. Still some models may need an errata despite Gaining Grounds.

 

[CD1248]

Miner can get places fast, but if it has to drop markers it can get down a grand total of 3 during the whole game if you bury t1, and it isn't very killy.

Its VERY good at positional schemes, and VERY good if you just need one marker in an uncontested far flung spot. If those conditions aren't met then it's just a cost efficient tanky body to carry Magical Training.

As for the Swarm, I think it's more of an issue that most Arcanist keywords don't actually want more than maybe 30ss of keyword models, and Arcanists don't really have a lot of good versatile/OOK-worthy models competing with it.

It's very good, but it's also a 8/10 SS melee beater with a 2/3/5 damage track, wp4 (hello Terrifying!), and it doesn't ignore any defensive tech. It's df5/wp4, Arm1, Evasive, 9hp. It's to damage and built in Onslaught are real good, it's mobility is also real good, but it's got plenty of weak spots.

[CD1248]

Aside from maybe two or three models across the entire game, I'm more interested in the bottom end of things. 

Molemen and Order Initiates seem plain trashy. Played a lot of Marcus, used them each exactly once, both times wished I had brought something else and have never missed them since.

The December crew seems to be missing something. A half dozen Surge triggers sprinkled cross the crew? The Wendigo not being df4 bullet bait? December's Command being allowed to affect more than three models in the December crew? Blessed of December mechanically interfacing with the rest of the crew in any way whatsoever? Who knows, but it's missing something.

[Mycellanious]

I feel like Foundry could use a little card draw. Its got several moderate tn's to hit and a lot of discards and no card draw in Keyword. I'd like some ability somewhere (action, trigger, at the end of this models activation etc), "This model may remove up to X Scrap Markers within Y" to draw cards up to the amount of removed markers"

[CD1248]

28 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I feel like Foundry could use a little card draw. Its got several moderate tn's to hit and a lot of discards and no card draw in Keyword. I'd like some ability somewhere (action, trigger, at the end of this models activation etc), "This model may remove up to X Scrap Markers within Y" to draw cards up to the amount of removed markers"

I find it's not nearly as bad in Foundry because you can mitigate with Focus, either from Kang spewing it to the whole crew or because Ride the Rails allows you to spend less time walking. Rage Machine from Mechchop helps too. 

Mei isn't personally resource intensive because of Press the Advantage, plus stuff like Vent Steam doesn't even require a TN. The Scrap generation/use also give the crew natural synergies with a bunch of the Arcanist versatiles.

[NoisyAssassin]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

I feel like Foundry could use a little card draw. Its got several moderate tn's to hit and a lot of discards and no card draw in Keyword. I'd like some ability somewhere (action, trigger, at the end of this models activation etc), "This model may remove up to X Scrap Markers within Y" to draw cards up to the amount of removed markers"

I'm new to Malifaux and only played Foundry so far, so not a whole lot of baseline, but this feels like a very reasonable weakness for the crew to have. And it is mitigated a bit with the extra card from Magical Training (with SS Miners or Survivors both being really good at carrying it). 

[Ogid]

The miner is strong and the mobility is very good, but I'm not sure it deserves a nerf... I'd wait.

The swarm on the other hands feels too good. Extra Wds isn't common for Armor+1 models, they also got to damage with a 5 max damage, a built-in onslaught trigger, stat 6 and latch on (which is equivalent to stat 7 in other model) and nimble; so they can also scheme well and can free movement + charge to 11''. The other attack triggers aren't bad at all. Devastating Strike and high health is to damage (triple positive charging with Diesel), so they are also a valid answer versus H2W models. They are minions, so they get full advantage of upgrades and 2 can be included...

Compare the swarm with Hinamatsu (who is a top tier model).

[retnab]

As someone who has played a lot of Foundry, I don't think they need card draw really.  They're one of the most mobile crews in the game, with some tanking in there as well, resource control on top of that would probably be too much.  If I did want them to get something it'd be assistance for their Living-only models, since they miss out a lot on the things in the crew that rely on targeting Constructs.

[CD1248]

14 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The miner is strong and the mobility is very good, but I'm not sure it deserves a nerf... I'd wait.

The swarm on the other hands feels too good. Extra Wds isn't common for Armor+1 models, they also got to damage with a 5 max damage, a built-in onslaught trigger, stat 6 and latch on (which is equivalent to stat 7 in other model) and nimble; so they can also scheme well and can free movement + charge to 11''. The other attack triggers aren't bad at all. Devastating Strike and high health is to damage (triple positive charging with Diesel), so they are also a valid answer versus H2W models. They are minions, so they get full advantage of upgrades and 2 can be included...

Compare the swarm with Hinamatsu (who is a top tier model).

Hinamatsu compares pretty favorably I think. I'd concede the point if Hina was an Enforcer, but Henchman status tips the scale.

At the end of the day the Swarm is df5/wp4 arm1, with Concealment if you pay 2 for the upgrade, and it doesn't have any ranged attacks. It can get the 5-dam severes easily, but there are only so many severes in the deck, and relying on the consistent 5 is the only thing that makes it's damage good at it's price point.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, CD1248 said:

Hinamatsu compares pretty favorably I think. I'd concede the point if Hina was an Enforcer, but Henchman status tips the scale.

At the end of the day the Swarm is df5/wp4 arm1, with Concealment if you pay 2 for the upgrade, and it doesn't have any ranged attacks. It can get the 5-dam severes easily, but there are only so many severes in the deck, and relying on the consistent 5 is the only thing that makes it's damage good at it's price point.

Not that favorably imo... Hinamatsu is tankier, that's true; but the swarm is better at some key points:

• Cost: 8SS vs 9SS. Swarm is better.
• Avaliability: 2 vs 1. 
• Endurance: 9Wds Armor+1 Evasive vs 8Wds Armor+2 Henchman. Hinamatsu is better
• Stat: 7(or 6+"-1Df") vs 6. Swarm is better (Hinamatsu needs to use SS to get the trigger or cheat, but her  is good vs Serene countenance and the like)
• Flurry: No vs Yes. Hinamatsu is better.
• Damage: 2/3/5 with damage at high health vs 2/3/4. Swarm better (plus swarm can get a double positive).
• Charge range: 11'' (5''+5''+1'') unimpeded vs 9'' (8''+1''). Swarm is better
• Mv: 15'' (5''+5''+5'') unimpeded vs 14'' or 12 (6''+8(6)'').  Swarm is better (even better with Diesel +3''), plus Hinamatsu can only move 14 if she is able to charge.
• Double scheme: Yes vs No. Swarm is better.
• Other perks: Heal from scrap (0), can and displace with triggers vs Wicked, Leverage, Lure, trigger for Armor piercing and (0) distracted. Different, but Hinamatsu has much more stuff here... so point for Hinamatsu.
• Upgrades: Minion vs Henchman. Swarm is better.

TLDR: The swarm is more mobile and hits harder than Hinamatsu (damage, built-in trigger, stat "7" and severe 5) while also reducing the Df of the model engaged (almost free injured) and other perks (more damage and  or displacement). Hinamatsu is a worse hitter (stat 6, non built-in trigger, severe 4, less 1 AP charge range), she can attack more times if she expends resources tho (3 SS/cards for triggers and 1 card for flurry) but she lacks to damage, her attack perk is armor piercing. Hinamatsu can take more punishment and use SS (the swarm is also quite tanky and may use diesel or cache to tank up tho) and bring more good tricks (Lure, Wicked, Distracted, Leverage) than the swarm (heal from scrap). Swarm is much better schemer than Hinamatsu (faster, unimpeded and can double scheme).

In my experience tanky + fast + killy + schemy + good cost = problem.

[Durza]

I'd drop Firebranded cost by 2ss.

[solkan]

20 minutes ago, Ogid said:

TLDR: The swarm is more mobile and hits harder than Hinamatsu (damage, built-in trigger, stat "7" and severe 5) while also reducing the Df of the model engaged (almost free injured) and other perks (more damage and  or displacement). Hinamatsu is a worse hitter (stat 6, non built-in trigger, severe 4, less 1 AP charge range), she can attack more times if she expends resources tho (3 SS/cards for triggers and 1 card for flurry) but she lacks to damage, her attack perk is armor piercing. Hinamatsu can take more punishment and use SS (the swarm is also quite tanky and may use diesel or cache to tank up tho) and bring more good tricks (Lure, Wicked, Distracted, Leverage) than the swarm (heal from scrap). Swarm is much better schemer than Hinamatsu (faster, unimpeded and can double scheme).

In my experience tanky + fast + killy + schemy + good cost = problem.

This just really feels like the "All of my problems are nails, the only tools I need are hammers" analysis method.

 

[Ogid]

24 minutes ago, solkan said:

This just really feels like the "All of my problems are nails, the only tools I need are hammers" analysis method.

Haha, fair enough. Combat is an important part of the game, and how fast a model can kill one of yours and how much terrain it may cover in one activation (and 1 AP) is something to really consider when moving your pieces (even if the only thing you want to do with that model is scoring); but yeah, I focused quite a bit in that part.

[Gnomezilla]

56 minutes ago, solkan said:

This just really feels like the "All of my problems are nails, the only tools I need are hammers" analysis method.

I fail to see the problem? [/Guild]  

[Jinn]

Concentrating on the lower end of things...

Oxfordian Mages, Shastar Vidiya Guards and Firebranded all need a reason to hire more than one of them. I don't know if it's because of pass tokens or just because the models are subpar, but it really sucks when you have three sculpts of a model and you have to go out of your way to use even one in the keyword they're designed for.

Kaeris's crew needs more ways to generate Pyre Markers for friendly purposes or else I'm just going to hire versatile models that don't need her to waste her hazardous on your own side of the board AND activate before most of her crew. Fire Gamin especially are almost useless without support, and who hires 4SS minions to support them with your master? Elijah Borgmann could really use stat 6 on his expunge and some kind of extra movement (rush would work).

Most of the beasts probably need to be looked over. Specifically, the ones I'd almost never hire:

• Moleman
• Order Initiate
• Slate Ridge Mauler
• Hoarcat
• Cojo

Most of them become half decent when Marcus puts his upgrades on them but once that happens they ought to be well above the curve as that is where most of Marcus's impact as a master is going.

Showgirls need a defence other than Manipulative, the whole idea of combining it with distracted to be unhittable just doesn't work in practice due to their low wound count and the ease with which you can remove distracted using assist. They usually die in one focused charge even if you leave them to activate until last.

The most important Errata I can think of though is giving the Arcane Emissary Blade Rush. I mean look at those pointy arm blades; I've had to transport them dozens of times, and for what! 

Seriously though, I would like to see a way for the Emissary to ignore terrain somehow or to destroy destructible terrain it comes into contact with during a move. With how dense terrain is supposed to be with GG0 there is often only a couple of places on the board where you can get a full charge with a 50mm base.

9 hours ago, CD1248 said:

December's Command being allowed to affect more than three models in the December crew?

This I wholly agree with. On multiple occasions I've hired a December crew to fit the matchup and schemes, gotten to Snow Storm's activation and then suddenly realised that their bonus action is going to go almost entirely to waste as I've only got the Wendigo to use it on. Letting it target any December model wouldn't be the end of the world, would it?

 

On the other side of things, I think the Soulstone Miner and the Steam Arachnid Swarm could use a nerf. I am worried that Wyrd might just nerf the versatile models without buffing any of the keyword models which would leave those Masters with a weak keyword in a difficult position though.

[Cursed25]

Soulstone miner is good now because of the schemes that need positioning or very far away scheme on certain deployment type! Remove this and he will be way less oppressive! Outflank is too easy with this guy

 

Swarms are a little above the curve in my opinion! As others have said they can do a lot of things well (kill, fast movement, 2 schemes/turn, somewhat tanky) For 8ss I think they offer too much and this is why (in my meta) almost all Arcanist players use them in each game. They are often better than most keyword models because they can do more than one role and this is the key problem! I would not make them 10ss but I would nerf some aspect of their kit (either dmg or mobility) If they are only good in 1-2 role, you will be encourage to use keyword model for other roles instead of always taking the swarms for everything

[Mycellanious]

I kinda wish swarms werent autosuited for Onslaught but were autosuited for the movement trigger (I get that right now they are both masks). This could give it a unique role in the faction as a tech piece against positional schemes without resorting to "well it cant score outflank if its dead." I also think its super cool thematically for a super fast swarm to leap out of cover (nimble), Latch On to a target and drag it away helplessly

[CD1248]

2 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

They are often better than most keyword models because they can do more than one role and this is the key problem! I would not make them 10ss but I would nerf some aspect of their kit (either dmg or mobility) If they are only good in 1-2 role, you will be encourage to use keyword model for other roles instead of always taking the swarms for everything

In terms of the game as a whole the Swarm is about on curve with the good models in other factions, they just get taken all the time because Arcanists don't have good comparible models for the slot except in a few keywords.

They're doing what a Versatile model should do design wise, it's not their fault the keywords don't have the strength to offer viable internal alternatives.

 

[Vatic]

21 hours ago, Durza said:

I'd drop Firebranded cost by 2ss.

I think they do need some love, but would rather they had something a bit more interesting on their card. I think this all applies to Elijah too. 

They love being in pyre markers, for the flips and damage reduction. I would love to see them have a way to manipulate the position of markers. Given they are also a bit slow relative to the rest of the crew, maybe an ability to move markers and then move themselves. Maybe like target a pyre within 1", push it up to 3" then place or push into base contact with it.

The crew is also light on healing. A trigger to pulse heal 1 on this action would be cool. Although maybe a bit much. The whole "burn bright and fast" would start to diminish if the crew had too much healing. Maybe best to leave this as a weakness (you have to manage your burning damage or your crew slowly just dies) 

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, CD1248 said:

In terms of the game as a whole the Swarm is about on curve with the good models in other factions, they just get taken all the time because Arcanists don't have good comparible models for the slot except in a few keywords.

I can't think in a lot of models doing so well in that many areas, especially minions. I'm curious, which models are comparable to them in other factions?

[grundil]

I personnaly think SS miner are too safe. I mean it's a 6SS model but in fact it's only a 3-4SS model.

If you got 8SS remaining in your crew, take a SS miner or not isn't a real hard choice. I'm interesting what counter you know guys ?

Scheme also have their importance but yeah actually, it's really the arcanist model we see the most.

[CD1248]

6 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I can't think in a lot of models doing so well in that many areas, especially minions. I'm curious, which models are comparable to them in other factions?

Off the top of my head? Archie, Manos, Midnight Stalker, Ninja Samurai, Gracie, Dead Rider, Pale Rider, Hooded Rider, Minako Rei, Hinamatsu.

I'm assuming you've stapled Diesel Engine to the Swarm, because without On The Move the Swarm is pretty darn easy to lock down with anything tanky and on cost, and thus can't scheme well unless you leave it unopposed.