Jump to content

kirai vs dreamer crew and pandora crew, any suggestions?


Recommended Posts

Hi, in this weekend I'm gonna have a mini tournament in my area. I have a bit of concern to fight against dreamer and pandora, as they are one of the strongest player around with a crew that looks quite nasty. any idea what should I do to deal with them? what's the general tactica with kirai, as I don't have other crew except kirai (got every urami keyword except drowned). thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Against Dreamer, there's two possibilites: minion Dreamer and elite Dreamer. I play elite, but will try to give advice for both:

Elite Dreamer takes several beaters (for instance, lord chompy + Teddy + Serena), and only a handful of lucid dreams (about 4 on turn 1). This crew is strong from the get-go, and you can afford to play a bit more of a grind-y game against them as their deck doesn't get too powerful too quickly. And indeed, you don't want to dive in too hard against the crew as they will murder you hard. However, they are very squishy relative to your models (except Teddy), and you should take them down. Just be aware of their healing tricks - either focus fire each one down super fast, or use your anti-healing abilities. Don't discount the power of their deck, though. By turn 3, about half the weaks of the deck might be gone. Their biggest weakness is their overall card quantity - if you can kill their ancient pacts, they are really going to struggle when you start forcing lots of duels that do damage. They won't be able to cheat them all, and their deck won't be strong enough to stop them all. The minions with ancient pact are the number one priority if you can kill them safely (or since you have expendable models, if you can kill them with expendable models).

Minion dreamer spams lucid dreams, but has less beaters (for instance, Lord Chompy + Serena, but 7 lucid dreams turn one). For this one, their deck powers up super fast. Here the number one priority is killing their beaters before their deck powers up, especially Lord Chompy Bits. They might try to play it safe with him, but you can dive in some nukes at him, since it is worth taking him down and you can summon back your reinforcements.

Jaakuna is good, as Dreamer is not very action efficient, so having to take lots of actions to get things done around her is tricky. Beware Dreamer's aura that shuts down bonus actions, though. Also beware diving Dreamer thinking that he is a weak child - he can be a 3/4/5 beater when he wants to be. He'll happily murder things, and can teleport Lord Chompy Bits. I personally think that going after Dreamer is a mistake unless your opponent leaves him vulnerable. I've had opponents dive bomb him only to have their beaters murdered by the counter attack. That said, throw some attacks his way - him discarding to protected drains his resources (and if he is redirecting attacks to ancient pact minions, perfect!!) Just know killing him takes an enormous investment.

If you're struggling to hit them (terrifying is mean, and so is a strong deck), don't forget that focus is your friend. Any time you're struggling to hit things, focus is a good option to consider. Also don't forget how good Ressers are at getting ruthless (you can have it as an upgrade!)

Finally, don't forget what the game is about - scoring points. Dreamer is not very action efficient for interacting. You may be able to beat him with scheming efficiency (not that Kirai is exactly stellar at it either, but your Shikome summon means you can more easily turn summons into efficient interacts).

Finally, abuse terrain. His key pieces can get bogged down by terrain. Your key pieces ignore terrain.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Against Dreamer, there's two possibilites: minion Dreamer and elite Dreamer. I play elite, but will try to give advice for both:

Elite Dreamer takes several beaters (for instance, lord chompy + Teddy + Serena), and only a handful of lucid dreams (about 4 on turn 1). This crew is strong from the get-go, and you can afford to play a bit more of a grind-y game against them as their deck doesn't get too powerful too quickly. And indeed, you don't want to dive in too hard against the crew as they will murder you hard. However, they are very squishy relative to your models (except Teddy), and you should take them down. Just be aware of their healing tricks - either focus fire each one down super fast, or use your anti-healing abilities. Don't discount the power of their deck, though. By turn 3, about half the weaks of the deck might be gone. Their biggest weakness is their overall card quantity - if you can kill their ancient pacts, they are really going to struggle when you start forcing lots of duels that do damage. They won't be able to cheat them all, and their deck won't be strong enough to stop them all. The minions with ancient pact are the number one priority if you can kill them safely (or since you have expendable models, if you can kill them with expendable models).

Minion dreamer spams lucid dreams, but has less beaters (for instance, Lord Chompy + Serena, but 7 lucid dreams turn one). For this one, their deck powers up super fast. Here the number one priority is killing their beaters before their deck powers up, especially Lord Chompy Bits. They might try to play it safe with him, but you can dive in some nukes at him, since it is worth taking him down and you can summon back your reinforcements.

Jaakuna is good, as Dreamer is not very action efficient, so having to take lots of actions to get things done around her is tricky. Beware Dreamer's aura that shuts down bonus actions, though. Also beware diving Dreamer thinking that he is a weak child - he can be a 3/4/5 beater when he wants to be. He'll happily murder things, and can teleport Lord Chompy Bits. I personally think that going after Dreamer is a mistake unless your opponent leaves him vulnerable. I've had opponents dive bomb him only to have their beaters murdered by the counter attack. That said, throw some attacks his way - him discarding to protected drains his resources (and if he is redirecting attacks to ancient pact minions, perfect!!) Just know killing him takes an enormous investment.

If you're struggling to hit them (terrifying is mean, and so is a strong deck), don't forget that focus is your friend. Any time you're struggling to hit things, focus is a good option to consider. Also don't forget how good Ressers are at getting ruthless (you can have it as an upgrade!)

Finally, don't forget what the game is about - scoring points. Dreamer is not very action efficient for interacting. You may be able to beat him with scheming efficiency (not that Kirai is exactly stellar at it either, but your Shikome summon means you can more easily turn summons into efficient interacts).

Finally, abuse terrain. His key pieces can get bogged down by terrain. Your key pieces ignore terrain.

I find it does not matter much on chompy as it's recursion on stitched that are the broken thing in dreamer regardless of initial crew.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've only recently started playing Pandora, but basically... Anything that goes into her various bubbles is going to die. Killing baby kade if you get a chance is definitely worth it, he is a horrible murder baby. Candy will be annoying, but if you have ruthless and separate her from the poltergeist, she should be easy-ish to kill as long as you do it with a model that can declare triggers (isn't stunned).

Killing poltergeist should be extremely high priority. It is a devastating, but fragile, totem.

55 minutes ago, newsun said:

I find it does not matter much on chompy as it's recursion on stitched that are the broken thing in dreamer regardless of initial crew.

I hardly think they're broken and undefeatable, but good to note they are especially threatening against Kirai (they bypass all her defenses) except LOS. Careful of having low willpower models around Kirai, as they'll be easy avenues for the enemy to land enemies. Also be conscious it may be worth sacrificing Kirai, depending on the pool. Scoring points is what matters.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a Neverborn player, i use only Dreamer and Pandora.

I played one game Pandora vs Kirai, this was a really nasty game where my crew ended up doing nothing as my opponent avoid center of the table and focused on schemes. So my advice is : avoid frontal fight against a Pandora crew. You dont want to mess with her bubble, which can be quite killy (Kade/Teddy/Hinamatsu/Carver/Rider). On the other hand the crew is not really mobile and the bubble has a short range, so you can easily avoid enter it. Or send some summoned model to slow the crew : it will die for sure, but that's AP Pandora & friends wont use to score.

Dreamer, as @Maniacal_cackle said, has 2 kind of crews. I think the minion spam style tend to be better. Against these crews, HIGH PRIORITY TARGETS are daydreams. Probably there will be 3 of them, they can die in a single attack, and they are far too important for the mechanics of the crew to let them live. That will let Dreamer himself unsafe, suppress a lot of lucid dream, maybe some card draw (if ancien pact on them), and lose mobility for the entire crew. Beaters in nightmare hit hard but are squishy, you can easily kill Chompy or Teddy before they have a chance to use Regen. Against Elite Dreamer Crew, just focus on killing ennemy models one by one as they are not so resilient.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I fear playing Pandora is Ruthless. The crew is dependent on Manipulative for defence (Kade, Candy, Iggy) and Terrifying (Pandora, Carver, Teddy), beyond that it's merely Df 5. Pandora works by wearing you down with large pulses of WP attacks, and you won't be able to defend your whole crew against them all. The key is to know, who you'll need to defend.

Another aspect of Pandora and Candy is, that they love seeing big bruisy beaters with low WP, who they'll quickly force to commit suicide through Self-loathing. What they hate to face is high WP assassins with low damage tracks and the Execute trigger.

-

What I fear playing Dreamer is an opponent who directs his efforts at Dreamer. Serene Countenance just needs a little Focus to deal with, and if I want to re-direct attacks to other models, I have to discard my precious hand – besides of you killing my precious minions and forcing me to spend resources to re-summon them. On the other hand if you leave Dreamer to his own devices, he'll just float about, summoning Alps and Madnesses, support his crew in general and teleport Chompy around the field, and this will leave you dead.

-

In both crews you'll find Candy and Serena making regular appearances. So understanding those models will be time well spent.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, sigasana44 said:

thanks guys for the response. there's so much information that I'm very grateful, so i'm going to take my time to absorb it. so far I don't know pandora's list very well, but the dreamer is going to bring 2-3 stitched together. I heard it's pretty nasty, how should I deal with them as well?

Stitcheds are a scary model to dive into at first, but has some weaknessess that may be used against them.

  • The range of GYL (6'') is lower than average, that means their threat range isn't that high and can be outmanouvered. Don't leave vulnerable models near of 6'' because they will get a double GYL; the second one will be risky for the dreamer, but if both lands it'll hurt. If an stitched is pushed into range of double GYL be ready to react accordingly (put a resistant model between them, bring beaters able to kill them in one turn, displace...)
  • Fiendish Gamble is "once per activation" they can only use one high value removed card per turn; that's 3-5 very safe damage, but it's hard and risky to try to ramp it up in the same activation; their damage is sustained not that bursty (unless lucky double GYL). Healing will help to keep the damage in check.
  • It's a damage flip. Hard to wound will put that flip in a negative and damage reduction will help (incorporeal won't); so bring these models Armored/H2W/Shielded. Henchmans and a few extra SS for damage reduction is also way to control that damage.
  • If an stitched is buried, be careful with vulnerable models and Wp duels.
  • Keep the pressure, each high card removed used in defense is a high card not used in a GYL and a low card not removed from the deck. Take in count the removed cards before using too many resources in one attack.
  • Use Focused attacks (and bring ways to give focused effectively) to minimice Armor+1 and Bloated strench. If you can, target Wp or Mv. They are sturdy but killable. If you may alpha them and kill them do it (fast and focused will help you with that).
  • Control them, slow/staggered them and keep the distance while score/deal with other models.
  • And as said above, it doesn't matter how hit they hard if you are outmaneouvering and outscheming them.

Kirai has some good abilities to deal with them:

  • Healing + Shielded: Keep the damage in check
  • I've got your back: If a stitched is summoned/moved into double GYL range, yank the vulnerable model out of range.
  • Spirit Barrage: Damage isn't impressive but they have a Wp of 5; useful for Coordinated attack. 12'' outrange move+GYL and may bring them low enough for other models to one shot them.

Drowned (H2W and 7Wds) are also good to keep them busy. Seishins are good to outmaneouver them. Datsue Ba with focused may also take them if a Sheishin is used to position her (8'' outrange 6''), the stitched would only be able to use 1 GYL that datsue ba may reduce with SS and then double Weigh Sins

The rest of the keyword rely in Terrifying, Incorporeal and may have lower than average wds, so those models will have to keep the distance with stitcheds unless you know you can take them out quick. Consider using versatile and OOK options like the rider, archie or sloth if they fit the pool.

I'm not much into RES so I'm don't know well the builds and meta picks but RES has a lot of models quite resistant to GYL so I'm sure there is plenty of options. From the top of my head: Toshiro looks like the ideal pick, quite resistant himself, buff minions, heals, focused, shielded... and bring Ashigarus. Ashigarus are both an undesirable GYL target and may defend from the other glassy heavy hitters of the crew. I like more Toshiro but The Forgotten Marshal may put Rabble Risers in the table; RR are also able to take on Stitcheds and keep them busy (and Challenge is very annoying too). Not sure if they would be worth it OOK but an Student of steel is like the worst target possible for GYL (Armor, H2W, extra Wds and a heal) and they ignore armor and are able to threaten the stitched; he also bring Analyze Weaknesses, and taking in count both Teddy and Hinamatsu are frecuent picks for Dreamer and Pandora, it could be a solid pick (But I wouln't pick Hinamatsu into Vengeance, so it's probably only Teddy)

 

Lucid Dream to make the deck "hot" and stitched taking high card to guarantee GYL hits is anti-synergistic. If you see 2 or more Stitcheds pulling out high cards, that means Dreamer is giving up hot deck advantage to secure mid game solid GYL and there is no need to rush it. But if you see too many minions pulling out low cards and no high card, you better go for the throat or focus in scoring early and slowing him down the last 2 turns. Too many severe cards removed means his deck is weakened so if you can put pressure in other models and keep the stitcheds controled (with Drowned, Ashigarus, Sloth or Slow for example), your deck will be better. Also as said above, take out the Daydreams early if you can; they bring so much to the crew with the extra LDs and pushs.

Stitcheds are tricky to play against and are nasty experience when going unprepared; but knowing how to use their weaknessess against them and how to pick versus them, they seem much less threatening.

Good luck! Tell us how it goes!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vs Pandora take the hit on a weak model is golden! She will target your big beater thinking to do big dmg but for the price of a card she now does meaningless dmg on another minion!

 

In Ressers I know Ashigaru got it and with armor/hard to kill they can wither a few of their own attack against them! ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vincent is also a consideration into dreamer since he can remove summoned models as long as not ones from widow as she does not attach upgrades. 

 

The suggestion to kill day dreams while can help is a somewhat fruitless effort most times as they are not significant, so cheap that you are wasting valuable ap and usually way behind the meat of the list. If you have any blasts put damage on them around dreamer can be good.

Missile Ikiryo into something valuable t1 for sure. Either she is on the mix for t2 or she's summoned again t1. It's really hard to kill models dreamer's crew can summon until the summoners are gone, so priority needs to be dreamer, widow, chompy (not necessarily this order).

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't speak to Kirai, but I can speak to playing against  Dreamer:

As others have said you need to break part of his list early. This can be Dreamer, Chompy, Widow Weaver, or the Daydreams, depending.

Dreamer himself can be challenging to take out, between Serene Countenance and Protected some lists just don't have the tools to efficiently attack him in the early game. To compound this, if Serena Bowman is in the mix any run that doesn't one-shot him may just be immediately healed up, leaving you with a bunch of actions wasted.

I find Chompy to be the more appealing target, he'll usually have Butterfly Jump, but aside from that he's just a df5 8hp Henchman. Just don't let yourself be bamboozled by his Butterfly Jump and 2" reach.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an interesting idea which strays some from standard Kirai into Dreamer

New Kirai Ankoku Crew (Resurrectionist)
Size: 50 - Pool: 8
Leader:
  Kirai Ankoku
    The Whisper
Totem(s):
  Ikiryo
Hires:
  Seishin
  Seishin 2
  Seishin 3
  Shikome
  Toshiro, The Daimyo
  Shikome 2
  Lost Love
  Onryo

 

T1 you should be able to shove both Shikome and Ikiryo into the enemy crew. All the corpses can turn into Ashigaru. Also with the fairly minion heavy nature Tosh can use his power to good effectiveness. I consider 2ss free to keep or as something else, though I'd save at least 6 for summons and prevention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thanks guys for all the response! Some seems suggest to bring toshiro and ashigaru since they are tough, sadly i don't have them atm. only have a full urami except drowned
from what I read it's kinda narrow it down to:
(disclaimer: this simplified reminding text might be offensive for you amazing guys that spent time to write and help me, but so this is what I understand atm, need to keep reread their cards more)
universal: the negate terrifying and ruthless upgrade.
outmaneuver and outscheme them since they are slow but deadly. dreamer with high damage and pandora with annoying small bubble.
DREAMER:
-take out each of the list one by one. no.1 is daydream, the rest can be the hitter, but still one by one (chompy bits, widow, dreamer etc).
PANDORA:
-similarly, target the small weak monster one by one, starts from poltergeist then can be candy, baby, etc

for my own:
use more healing, focus, any buff to help my crew.
Dive bomb ikiryo to slow down their unit, then just summon it later on.

not sure about the list, since it's 40 SS, but it seems taking more seishin than normally is preferable for maneuver.
Jaakuna might be a good annoyance for dreamer, but just stay away from pandora

hopefully I manage to win or at least not lose one-sidedly, will give you update the day after. thank you so much guys!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, sigasana44 said:

for my own:
use more healing, focus, any buff to help my crew.
 

don't spam focus on your models against Pandora! one is good if attacking because you will declare using it first but any above that will get removed if attacking Pandora or Carver!

 

Also remember that if either Pandora or Carver are attacking your models with one or more focus you won't be able to use it in defense. Since their Opportunist ability and declaring focus usage happens at the same timing and models who is it's activation has priority on his abilities!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good catch with focus against Pandora - don't stack it and don't use it against her or carver.

Ashigaru can't use 'take the hit' vs. Gamble your life (it isn't an attack action), so they're not that good against Stitched. Additionally, Kirai is a far stronger summoner and already covers you for summons. I'd diversify your list more (summoning is a grindy, late game strategy. But you need to be fast and aggressive against dreamer at least). It could maybe work against Pandora. Although again, she loves when you discard your hand.

For daydreams, ordinarily I would say a good Dreamer player will protect then so well it is super hard to kill them profitably. However, as a summoner you can suicide nuke them, going hard with goryo + ikyro. So I have to throw in support for targeting them early as well.

Personally I think Kirai does well to hire a Goryo in your starting crew as it can get some good work done and summoning them can be too slow. I've only played against Kirai, but as a Dreamer player it'd be annoying to play against something like:

  • Kirai + ikyro
  • 3 seishin
  • Datsue Ba
  • Jaakuna
  • Goryo

Maybe swap a sesihin for lost love for increased scheming power.

I'd take this main crew and nuke the enemy, spam summoning Ikyro, Goryo, and Shikome. Ikyro could keep nuking the enemy (especially with her irreducible damage), while summoned Shikome and goryo focused on scheming.

If you are solid about destroying key pieces (especially schemers like/anti schemers like Lord Chompy), you can hopefully put them behind on points.

Don't be afraid to be aggressive, but don't suicide bomb non-minions. Jaakuna is better disrupting for 2-3 turns than dying turn one to a hyper-push.

Several grains of salt - I don't play Kirai, just against her!

Oh, one last warning about daydreams. It can be profitable to kill them and all (and super high priority if they have ancient pact), but dreamer can summon three more with a single action. Don't go overboard with focusing on them throughout the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Ashigaru can't use 'take the hit' vs. Gamble your life (it isn't an attack action), so they're not that good against Stitched.

The idea of Ashigarus vs stitches is more keeping them busy so they have a harder time getting to the good targets (kind of engaging them and putting the model in a way it cant disengage towards juicy targets). An Ashigaru needs 2 or 3 GYL to die (a few more if it manage to heal with the bonus).

5 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

Also remember that if either Pandora or Carver are attacking your models with one or more focus you won't be able to use it in defense.

Not sure about this one. In defense the attacking model may use Focused first, but if after that there is still Focused, Pandora or Carver may use Oportunistic.

5 hours ago, sigasana44 said:

-take out each of the list one by one. no.1 is daydream, the rest can be the hitter, but still one by one (chompy bits, widow, dreamer etc).

A note here, daydreams are going to be protected far in the back of the crew; take them out if you have the oportunity; but don't tunel vision them.

5 hours ago, sigasana44 said:

only have a full urami except drowned

Then be careful with Stitched because most of your models have no df tech vs GYL (Other beaters are also scary, but incorporeal will make them less threatening.), but using well the distances and healing you should be fine. Checking Urami models Shikome seems also interesting, that 6 max damage with a 8'' charge range may help you to alpha strike it (and they also seem legit Daydream hunters). Goryo is also good for apha hitting the "On your heels" trigger, but the reduced Wds may be a problem.

Not sure if it fits in your crew and the pool, but Grave's Touch with Blasphemous Ritual is a way to give Focused to a few beaters (it needs corpses tho).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Not sure about this one. In defense the attacking model may use Focused first, but if after that there is still Focused, Pandora or Carver may use Oportunistic.

...

Not sure if it fits in your crew and the pool, but Grave's Touch with Blasphemous Ritual is a way to give Focused to a few beaters (it needs corpses tho).

Oh, yup, Pandora can only eat your focus first when attacking. When you're attacking her, you can use it before she eats it. Good catch.

Grave spirit's touch and corpse marker strategies in general are weaker in Kirai crews I suspect, but especially against Dreamer or Pandora. There will be so few naturally generated corpse markers that you'll be really relying on a model to generate them (and the markers have very little synergy with the crew, making it even more suss IMO).

Compare that to say a Molly crew, where all the models drop markers when they die, she can use corpse markers to draw two cards, in addition to the blasphemous rituals, grave golem shenanigans, and Toshiro corpse summoning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Ogid said:

Not sure about this one. In defense the attacking model may use Focused first, but if after that there is still Focused, Pandora or Carver may use Oportunistic.

I think you were mixing a bit what I said :P 

 

if you are attacking Pandora or Carver you can use your focus first because it is your activation. But in defense you won't be ale to use focus to defend yourself against Pandora/Carver. The explication is below.

 

the 2 abilities (using focus and Opportunist) have the same timing (Before performing an opposed duel). When 2 abilities happens at the same time, the models whose activation it is has priority! So Pandora will be able to use Opportunist before you declare using focus for your defense.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

the 2 abilities (using focus and Opportunist) have the same timing (Before performing an opposed duel). When 2 abilities happens at the same time, the models whose activation it is has priority! So Pandora will be able to use Opportunist before you declare using focus for your defense.

That's right. I read your answer too fast and think you were saying Oportunistic cannot be used to remove the remaining Focused in the attacking model if the attacking model use Focused. If the woe is the one attacking, then no Focused for the defender.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alright guys, the tournament is finished! This might be super disappointing for you all (it is for me!!!) After this awesome discussion, but i didn't manage to meet both of them since I got a draw in the first round, while they were winning till the 3rd round where they faced each other. (Spoiler, dreamer won) But! I'm not gonna let this wasted just like that, I'm planning to play casually with both of them some time later. Hopefully i can beat them with these advices

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, sigasana44 said:

Alright guys, the tournament is finished! This might be super disappointing for you all (it is for me!!!) After this awesome discussion, but i didn't manage to meet both of them since I got a draw in the first round, while they were winning till the 3rd round where they faced each other. (Spoiler, dreamer won) But! I'm not gonna let this wasted just like that, I'm planning to play casually with both of them some time later. Hopefully i can beat them with these advices

Learning about other crews and strategising is rarely wasted time. It is good mental exercise for the game, and it also introduces you to more scenarios/issues you might encounter in gameplay. I hope your casual games go well! Nice attitude :)

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Learning about other crews and strategising is rarely wasted time. It is good mental exercise for the game, and it also introduces you to more scenarios/issues you might encounter in gameplay. I hope your casual games go well! Nice attitude :)

Thanks man, it's just kinda frustrates me that when I already planned on how to beat them, then I failed to even pass the first one (freakin misaki getting all the schemes and strats). Welp, i guess it shows that you should focus on everyone instead of being super careful about the top 2. I'm too overconfident

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information