Stitched Together. Gamble your Life rework suggestions.

[Maniacal_cackle]

A potential fix would be: when a stitched is summoned, it takes 2 irreducible damage. At the start of its activation, if it is buried, it heals 1.

That could replace the obnoxious poison ability (which I think is low-key one of the factors pushing stitched into top tier territory).

 

[ShinChan]

First of all, I want to point again that I don't think that Stitched need a big nerf or a complete rework, or even remove any of their current abilities.

Their "problem" is that:

• They're summonable, so that's put them already in an advantage vs almost all the other models you pointed out @Maniacal_cackle. They're even summonable with a Daydream for a 13! Also, being a minion opens the possibility to interact with other abilities, attach upgrades with full benefits and field more than 1, so no point at all in comparing them with enforcers.
• They can, with a very good reliability put a lot of damage while avoiding all of these defensive abilities:
  • Serene counternance
  • Manipulative
  • Terrifying
  • Cover
  • Concealment
  • Protected
  • Any defensive triggers (Df or Wp)
• They are quite resilient for their cost (Df6, Armor +1 and 3 ways of healing)
• They bring a lot of utility for the crew (Lucid Dream and Fiendish Gamble)

So my idea would be to keep them in the same role, with the same abilities, but modifying Gamble Your Life to make it less reliable:

• Range 8" -> To give the Stitched more reliable when hired. After all, if it's summoned, it's already going to appear in b2b with the enemy.
• Increase the TN to 12 -> Needing only a 4 in a crew that in turn 3 is not going to remove almost everything below 4 from its deck is just plain ridiculous.
• Damage to 2/3/4 -> Since the high output damage is a problem
• Critical strike -> Add the  trigger printed in the action and remove the . So by default it will be still 3/4/5, but at least it allows some counterplay with stunned or people that avoid/benefit from triggers in the opponent.

I think that these are minimal changes and I wouldn't know if consider them a nerf or even a small buff, so let's call them "an adjustment".

@Fixxer and @Sharp_GT well, there is theoryfaux, and there is the maths between Lucid Dream and Fiendish Gamble. I don't play the Dreamer, but I've faced him multiple times, and before you think I'm just ranting, most of them were wins for me, but most likely because I was a more experienced player than my opponent that started to play by the end of M2E. But I don't base the support of my suggested modifications on my experience, because that's limited and more subjective. I'm basing it on the numbers and probability and you can't argue about that. Check my numbers or Solkan's.

 

PS: @Maniacal_cackle Try to avoid double posting please, edit your previous message. It makes less notifications pop and it doesn't unnecessary increase the thread size. Also goes against the "non-written rules of forum platforms" :P

PSS: @Kharnage somehow I switch the names in my mind between Insidious Madness and Bandersnatch, thanks for pointing that out

[Ogid]

I'm not used to Zoraida, are stitched a problem with her?

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Toshiro at 9(10) stones can spam out Ashigaru (5 stone minion) with corpse marker generation. He needs a 10+ to do it, and he basically can't move if he is doing it (5" per turn). But the summoning is super, super strong.

Widow weaver on the other hand is able to do a 6 stone minion, only needs a 9, and can easily move at least ~13 inches per turn. It is just next level how ridiculous that is. She was clearly balanced with an assumption of no easy scrap markers. She'd be ridiculous even if she could only summon aversions or gigants.

There are a few differences; Ashigaru excel at defending other models with Extended Reach and Take the hit and has decent actions for his cost (even a bonus one); they aren't something to scoff at; and Toshiro does a lot just standing there with the aura, healing and giving Focused.

WW is a mobility based model that has to stay right next to a limped hag to be able to summon. Zoraida seems quite good to field stitcheds and will create a dangerous bubble around her; but I'm not sure if those 9SS aren't best expend in a top notch beater she may obey or in the first mate...

For me the best non master summoner of the game is Minako, 2 Katashiros in turn 1 for 2 top notch schemers able to actually get points. And Minako can be tricky to deal with and may even summon another model. And that's probably the big difference. Stitched is a sitting duck that rely in the other player coming at him; while more mobile models get the job done and are the one getting the best results.

As I said I'm not used to Zoraida builds. Are WW and Stitched usually included with her crew? Is Stitched a problem in that crew?

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That could replace the obnoxious poison ability (which I think is low-key one of the factors pushing stitched into top tier territory).

They are good at what they do, but I'm not sure they are that top tier... they could be easily included in every NVB crew and they aren't. Top tier models are things like Miners, Archie and some riders that show up in most list of the faction regardless of the master or pool.

7 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Their "problem" is that (...)

True, but don't forget all their limitations and counterplay (I don't want to list them again). Listing only the advantages they may seem broken, but they aren't when faced whith the right models and plan. Plus LD and Fiendish Gamble aren't a lot of utility, they are only good controling an area and dealing damage and the right models may just rolfstomp them.

 

On track again!

7 hours ago, ShinChan said:

So my idea would be to keep them in the same role, with the same abilities, but modifying Gamble Your Life to make it less reliable:

• Range 8" -> To give the Stitched more reliable when hired. After all, if it's summoned, it's already going to appear in b2b with the enemy.
• Increase the TN to 12 -> Needing only a 4 in a crew that in turn 3 is not going to remove almost everything below 4 from its deck is just plain ridiculous.
• Damage to 2/3/4 -> Since the high output damage is a problem
• Critical strike -> Add the  trigger printed in the action and remove the . So by default it will be still 3/4/5, but at least it allows some counterplay with stunned or people that avoid/benefit from triggers in the opponent.

Interesting ideas...

• I do think the range 8'' is a bigger buff than it looks, it can be tried but if GYL get a too big range it may become opressive really quick imo. Stitcheds are in check because they are good at their niche but can be played around. If they start being able to threat a bigger area, that can get out of hand quickly.
• Increase the TN a bit could be fair enough if they needed a nerf.
• I do like the critical strike idea... it's quite a nerf as they are summoned stunned by the dreamer and the only utility they have (cycle cards) is stripped from them... so maybe add that to the base ability; but still a nice idea to consider for a rework as it adds stunned to the counterplay options and make them less dangerous the turn they are summoned.

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

A potential fix would be: when a stitched is summoned, it takes 2 irreducible damage. At the start of its activation, if it is buried, it heals 1.

Not my favourite...

• They would summon them with only 4 Wds and would become vulnerable to crews able to attack buried models. Removing their toughness like that could make them too easily killable and seems a too harsh nerf.

[Kharnage]

4 hours ago, Ogid said:

As I said I'm not used to Zoraida builds. Are WW and Stitched usually included with her crew? Is Stitched a problem in that crew?

Yeah, Zoraida has this really powerful combo where she allows for Stitched to be summoned onto the table, and lets them use their abilities 😜 My list is as follows:
Zoraida w/ Ancient Pact
Widow Weaver
First Mate
Bad Juju w/ Inhuman Reflexes
Serena Bowman
Will o the Wisp
7 stones
 You literally just kill summoned voodoo dolls with their "Served its Purpose" ability, drop a scrap, and summon Stitched. No other support than being able to summon them. When the Stitched or Serena kills things, she gets stuffing tokens that can let her avoid using scrap to summon them, and can even use her summon action multiple times in a turn.
Zoraida theoretically also has the option of obeying them to use GYL some more, which I have done, but the fact remains, it's being able to summon them onto the table that's the problem, and Dreamer still does that. Truly, if they weren't in his summon pool, I wouldn't be so worried. If I had the reassurance that once I slew the Stitched, they'd be dead and gone for good, I would accept Df 6, Armor 1, 6 wounds with a poison punish as an acceptable gate to salvation. But as it stands, Widow Weaver or Dreamer, or even Vasilisa if you can find the 9 masks, can resummon the Stitched back onto the table after they finally die or kill themselves, and there are few than can even hope to win that exchange. 

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Yeah, Zoraida has this really powerful combo where she allows for Stitched to be summoned onto the table, and lets them use their abilities 😜 My list is as follows:
Zoraida w/ Ancient Pact
Widow Weaver
First Mate
Bad Juju w/ Inhuman Reflexes
Serena Bowman
Will o the Wisp
7 stones
 You literally just kill summoned voodoo dolls with their "Served its Purpose" ability, drop a scrap, and summon Stitched. No other support than being able to summon them. When the Stitched or Serena kills things, she gets stuffing tokens that can let her avoid using scrap to summon them, and can even use her summon action multiple times in a turn.
Zoraida theoretically also has the option of obeying them to use GYL some more, which I have done, but the fact remains, it's being able to summon them onto the table that's the problem, and Dreamer still does that. 

Cool list! It seems nasty; I take note .

Zoraida using scrap to summon stitched is very efficient (in fact I have that idea as second master for dreamer but I haven't put it in the table yet). However Vasi/WW summon them with slow, so they are even slower than before. An stitched summoned in turn 2 for example will have to wait until turn 3 to attack unless something get close to him. And using Zoraida APs to use GYL is an even bigger gamble than with Dreamer, as there is no hot deck nor extra LD sources the odds aren't that much in stitched favour so it may expend his activation doing some nice damage or killing the stitched; using those AP in one of the beaters would be better in most cases; specially if something to give focused is included (BBS/Bokor). Stitched with some luck may deal good damage, but beaters like the rider, hinamatsu or even a Mature would be a better option to obey in most cases. Plus there is always the option to wise up and include also some marker removal/kill WW. WW isn't exactly tanky.

It looks like a solid list, but it doens't look unbeatable or nastier than other bubble crews in this game.

How about other people, are Zoraida lists with WW/Vasi common in tournaments? Is there tournaments or meta where these lists are doing very well?

2 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Truly, if they weren't in his summon pool, I wouldn't be so worried. If I had the reassurance that once I slew the Stitched, they'd be dead and gone for good, I would accept Df 6, Armor 1, 6 wounds with a poison punish as an acceptable gate to salvation. But as it stands, Widow Weaver or Dreamer, or even Vasilisa if you can find the 9 masks, can resummon the Stitched back onto the table after they finally die or kill themselves, and there are few than can even hope to win that exchange. 

Complaining they can be summoned is like complaining other combat minions can be summoned; summoning is a powerful mechanic in general but it's avaliable to every faction. In NVB stitcheds may be put in the table easily, in other factions are Ashigarus which are great at defending or Katashiros which are top notch schemers... Guess which ones were in most top lists in the UK nationals.

[Kharnage]

7 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Complaining they can be summoned is like complaining other combat minions can be summoned; summoning is a powerful mechanic in general but it's avaliable to every faction. In NVB stitcheds may be put in the table easily, in other factions are Ashigarus which are great at defending or Katashiros which are top notch schemers... Guess which ones were in most top lists in the UK nationals.

Katashiro are df4 5 wounds, and literally no other defensive mechanics. Quite one-shottable by a focused Ml 6 beater. Ashigaru come into play with 2 less health, and are also Df 4. No one worth their salt is investing more than 2 AP, and certainly aren't sweating the outcome of the damage flip. Also neither of those models are even remotely as threatening in damage output. People end up having to invest the resources they'd spend killing models 2-3 stones more expensive than Stitched, while taking damage from them that matches the output of models 2-3 more stones than Stitched. 
And while Minako should have never been Versatile, and certainly cleans up any scheme running needs a TT player has, assuming you hired Ototo AND have tomes to burn, she and her summons are quite manageable. Spending 19 stones (including Ototo OOK tax) so you can summon super flimsy scheme runners is good, but it's defeatable by a variety of approaches. This discussion is for another thread, but Shenlong was the real powerhouse in that winning list.  
Stitched come in full health no matter who summons them. I don't know who you're playing into but if you're having trouble getting the stitched into a meaningful place to affect combat (as Dreamer summons literally Base to Base with enemies, and Zoraida can have the doll double walk up, and then have WW pull the scrap and summon in base with herself for 12 inches away from Zoraida) then... I have reason to believe the player's positioning skills could use work. Across two games of Zoraida having Widow Weaver summoning them so far, Stitched have used a grand total of 2 AP walking. 
Also you have, as a Dreamer player, a chorus of Daydreams ready and willing to scoot Stitched around at no real effort or cost. You're going to take 3 of them anyway because Lucid Dream spam is what the Stitched enjoy playing with (but as Zoraida can tell you, don't need to function at a high level). Most schemes force your opponent to cross the middle line of the map to score, and it's just not that hard to get to and fight them with your 6 inch "come near me and you die" bubble. 

[Mycellanious]

5 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Katashiro are df4 5 wounds, and literally no other defensive mechanics. Quite one-shottable by a focused Ml 6 beater. Ashigaru come into play with 2 less health, and are also Df 4. No one worth their salt is investing more than 2 AP, and certainly aren't sweating the outcome of the damage flip. Also neither of those models are even remotely as threatening in damage output. 

Eh, Ashigaru are REALLY hard to kill. Armor 1, Extended Reach, HtK, and bonus action that heals them is really strong. You need to hit them once for 5 damage to proc HtK, then hit them a second time which is tought to do with Extended Reach and their 2" mele range. 

[Kharnage]

31 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Eh, Ashigaru are REALLY hard to kill. Armor 1, Extended Reach, HtK, and bonus action that heals them is really strong. You need to hit them once for 5 damage to proc HtK, then hit them a second time which is tought to do with Extended Reach and their 2" mele range. 

Unless you summon them with Toshiro, which was his example I was countering.  Then they have to take a 3 damage hit before armor, then any hit, to just, be dead. He can Foul Mouthed Motivation them to heal to full, but that's a pretty universally useful ability and is an actual opportunity cost, as opposed to the full health Stitched regardless of context.

[Ogid]

IDK man, this is entering in theory realms... it's impossible to discuss every possible scenario.

With the limited data I have, stitcheds doesn't seem to be all over the faction, just in the crews where they have synergy (Dreamer and Zoraida); those crews are good but aren't dominating. And while is true they are sturdy and dangerous, there are also ways to be played around (and to win the game it isn't necessary to kill every model).

So they aren't all over the place, their crews are in check and they have counterplay; they seems fine to me. If they aren't or the devs think another version would be healthier for the game, I guess they will get adjusted.

49 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Katashiro are df4 5 wounds, and literally no other defensive mechanics. Quite one-shottable by a focused Ml 6 beater. Ashigaru come into play with 2 less health, and are also Df 4. No one worth their salt is investing more than 2 AP, and certainly aren't sweating the outcome of the damage flip. Also neither of those models are even remotely as threatening in damage output. People end up having to invest the resources they'd spend killing models 2-3 stones more expensive than Stitched, while taking damage from them that matches the output of models 2-3 more stones than Stitched. 
And while Minako should have never been Versatile, and certainly cleans up any scheme running needs a TT player has, assuming you hired Ototo AND have tomes to burn, she and her summons are quite manageable. Spending 19 stones (including Ototo OOK tax) so you can summon super flimsy scheme runners is good, but it's defeatable by a variety of approaches. This discussion is for another thread, but Shenlong was the real powerhouse in that winning list.

That's underselling the other summons and summoners...

Minako wasn't just in the Shenlong list, the third position who played a lot of Misaki also used her in almost all matches. Also she may also be used in other crews generating scrap, Asami may also field her easily thanks to Anakames for example. And it's also easier to set up a double summon in turn 1 and then have the other 2 models avaliable to do stuff from turn 2. Katashiros are squishy, but they are fast (16'' per turn) and able to double scheme. And Ototo and Minako are 2 dangerous models.

Ashigarus won't nuke models like a Stitched can, but they may make other good beaters or vulnerable models much harder to kill with Extended Reach (Disable charges) plus Take the hit (in a model with Armor+1 and H2K, so also not that easy to one-shoot) while also having nice perks (Shove aside for 3 attacks or reposition to use his 2'' engagement, and a bonus action that heals and injure; and a heal in a H2K model is really good). Plus Toshiro is a powerful and tanky support (free to minions, Focused, Healing, Shielded...) which also attack a reliquary when it dies.

Stitched is sturdy and dangerous (even if not reliable after the first hit), but other summons and summoners offers differents things as good as the area denial they offer; maybe harder to see on paper than "OMG Df6 Armor+1 and 3/4/5!" but they are getting the job done. With all the good stuff in this game stitcheds are getting much more hate than he deserved imo; specially for a model performing fine in his keyword and with little OOK use unless there are great synergies like the Zoraida one.

[Kharnage]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

Stitched is sturdy and dangerous (even if not reliable after the first hit), but other summons and summoners offers differents things as good as the area denial they offer; maybe harder to see on paper than OMG Df6 Armor+1 and 3/4/5! but they are getting the job done. With all the good stuff in this game stitcheds are getting much more hate than he deserved imo; specially for a model performing fine in his keyword and with little OOK use unless there are great synergies like the Zoraida one.

First off, this isn't on paper anymore. I've fought it. I've also fought, using it. It's stupid. I'm not theorycrafting here. I've played into Ashigaru, I've played into Katashiro (A LOT), and I've played into Stitched. I'm not even some justifiably bitter guild player who's tired of losing into Neverborn. I'm actively deleting models with no effort in my own native faction and saying it's too strong.
This is M3e. If your bar is "only OP if taken OOK", that doesn't hold up in a game design philosophy of Keywords. If I had a model overperforming within a keyword and only within a keyword, what would you use to assess that? 
As kind of a step back; if you genuinely believe these models to be on par with each other, why is it that the Stitched are able to generate 4 pages of debate about what needs changing, and also sparking similar debates in other threads, where Ashigaru, Katashiro, and even Minako Rei have not? Do you truly believe in your heart of hearts that this is all smoke and no fire? 
 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Ogid said:

Cool list! It seems nasty; I take note .

Zoraida using scrap to summon stitched is very efficient (in fact I have that idea as second master for dreamer but I haven't put it in the table yet). However Vasi/WW summon them with slow, so they are even slower than before. An stitched summoned in turn 2 for example will have to wait until turn 3 to attack unless something get close to him. And using Zoraida APs to use GYL is an even bigger gamble than with Dreamer, as there is no hot deck nor extra LD sources the odds aren't that much in stitched favour so it may expend his activation doing some nice damage or killing the stitched; using those AP in one of the beaters would be better in most cases; specially if something to give focused is included (BBS/Bokor). Stitched with some luck may deal good damage, but beaters like the rider, hinamatsu or even a Mature would be a better option to obey in most cases. Plus there is always the option to wise up and include also some marker removal/kill WW. WW isn't exactly tanky.

It looks like a solid list, but it doens't look unbeatable or nastier than other bubble crews in this game.

How about other people, are Zoraida lists with WW/Vasi common in tournaments? Is there tournaments or meta where these lists are doing very well?

Complaining they can be summoned is like complaining other combat minions can be summoned; summoning is a powerful mechanic in general but it's avaliable to every faction. In NVB stitcheds may be put in the table easily, in other factions are Ashigarus which are great at defending or Katashiros which are top notch schemers... Guess which ones were in most top lists in the UK nationals.

Using Zoraida as a second master with Dreamer is what got second masters banned in my local meta. You can easily summon 2-3 stitched a turn.

Killing widow weaver isn't really an option - she can move wherever she wants and get loads of scheming done while dropping out stitched. That combo specifically is too powerful IMO (although I don't think it is nerf time until it becomes commonly used. Someone may figure out a counter to it.

Granted, TT can summon a Jorugumo every turn with high consistency, so I agree summoning in general is very high power level. 

Also the Stitched can flip from outside the game when Zoraida obeys them to flip.

The opportunity cost with stitched though is you have to have high cards out of your deck. If someone is saving up a lot of severes, I'm going to spam some duels while their deck is weakened.

EDIT: Also don't forget Widow Weaver has a higher stat to summon than Dreamer... She can do it with a 9+. It is possible there is counterplay to Zoraida in a Dreamer crew, but we never found it because it was too disgusting to play more than once. Curious about tournaments though. Would definitely use it in cutthroat play.

[Ogid]

32 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

First off, this isn't on paper anymore. I've fought it. I've also fought, using it. It's stupid. I'm not theorycrafting here. I've played into Ashigaru, I've played into Katashiro (A LOT), and I've played into Stitched. I'm not even some justifiably bitter guild player who's tired of losing into Neverborn. I'm actively deleting models with no effort in my own native faction and saying it's too strong.

For your comments and other users comments it seems that you are a very strong player in your meta with an style that is punished with Stitched. It's feasible you are having a hard time versus them for how you like to play, and the skill gap let you take extra mileage out of them when you play with the stitcheds... or maybe they are too good idk man.

42 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

This M3e. If your bar is "only OP if taken OOK", that doesn't hold up in a game design philosophy of Keywords. If I had a model overperforming within a keyword and only within a keyword, what would you use to assess that? 
As kind of a step back; if you genuinely believe these models to be on par with each other, why is it that the Stitched are able to generate 4 pages of debate about what needs changing, and also sparking similar debates in other threads, where Ashigaru, Katashiro, and even Minako Rei have not? Do you truly believe in your heart of hearts that this is all smoke and no fire? 

The keywords helps, but if a model is overtuned, it breaks the "keyword barrier" and start appearing in each list (there are "must picks" in other factions). If they were so good, they would be in every list because in NVB; especially because stitcheds may be included without paying the OOK tax or discounted bringing other models:

• Hire Dreamer (13SS) in turn 2 you have 2 stitcheds (14SS worth OOK), then use the Dreamer as a scheme runner (incorporeal, Mv5, 3 actions) or to attack with Twist Reality.
• Hire WW/Vasi and 2 dolls, one shot them with min3 beaters charging ahead; summon 2 stitcheds at net cost of 3SS per stitched (with Vasi it's very hard doing it in 1 turn tho).

The fact the above isn't meta points toward them being mabye a strong model at what they do, but a model in check.

In keyword they are very good, but as long as the keyword isn't overperforming that's ok (specially when taking 3 has crippling effect for the LD mechanic). A player playing into a dreamer knows what he is going to face and which are the weak points of the Keyword (like a savage rush) and stitcheds, and should use that to hire a good crew. I love seeing different things in this game, and the fact a 6SS minion is a solid beater in his crew but it's not all over the faction is enriching for the game (as the different crews aren't just copy/pasted with slightly different perks). Maybe they are a wrecking ball in his keyword but as long they aren't overperforming at a OOK pick nor the keyword is overperforming, that's fine.

However they are a striking model. A sturdy 6SS model bypassing defenses with min 3 damage is outstanding; but there are hidden costs, risks and counterplay that a player not knowing a dreamer crew and being destroyed by that model is not going to understand. So I kind of see from where all that smoke is coming.

 

IDK, I wish there were a way to get more reliable data. I'm sure they aren't as bad as their reputation, however I can't claim they (or the nightmare keyword) are perfectly balanced; it could be his keyword is overperforming (and they are getting the blame of the entire keyword for how rare is having a 6SS minion dealing that kind of damage) or they are newbie stompers atracting a lot of hate ("I'm just going to casualy walk my incorporeal, serene countereance model near of that shitty 6SS minion, what could go wrong?")

I just love to discuss so sometimes I get trapped in this kind of endless threads, so I'm probably guilty of some of these threads . I guess Wyrd should be doing their own tests and keeping an eye in the performance in events, so if they (or the keyword) are too good, it'd get nerfbated eventualy.

[Gnomezilla]

On 12/4/2019 at 12:58 PM, Mycellanious said:

...This model may cheat the damage of this Action lower, but not higher."

My reasoning being allowing the Stitches to avoid most most the damage if they fail, while also forcing them to choose between using FG to make the attack hit or to secure severe dmg. The idea being to make it so the Stitched can either gamble on the attack hitting, but secure high damage, or secure a successful attack but gamble on its damage output. 

I also think the damage track should probably be lowered to like 2/3/5 or 2/3/4. It may also be fun to give them a damage track of like 5/4/3 to make him choose between adding a Weak back into the deck for an immediate damage gain or a Severe for lower damage but keeping the deck rigged, but thats probably way too much of a nerf. 

I also think id be cool if on ties BOTH models were damaged, but Im unsure if thats too big a nerf. 

While you’re right that this train of thought would be a horror to balance (and have to be balanced with reams of simulated flip & deck-filtering data theoryfaux), extending the feel of the stitched’s action being a gamble appeals to me. Though if I understand the better player’s urge to minimize randomness, they still will choose to make the attack hit, every time.

As far as the reversed damage track goes, should see if there is anecdotal data from the 3/2/1 track available to Allison Dade, which also even uses a pseudo-cheating, non-randomizing mechanic to determine damage (target reveals card from hand, takes 3/2/1 as though the card were flipped for damage). Given that her other action is card draw, however, there probably isn’t any. I’d happily take a guarantee of moderate 3 damage and risk of better from any model, as the sculpted deck won’t be averaging weak damage but moderate.

[Ogid]

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Using Zoraida as a second master with Dreamer is what got second masters banned in my local meta. You can easily summon 2-3 stitched a turn.

Killing widow weaver isn't really an option - she can move wherever she wants and get loads of scheming done while dropping out stitched. That combo specifically is too powerful IMO (although I don't think it is nerf time until it becomes commonly used. Someone may figure out a counter to it.

Granted, TT can summon a Jorugumo every turn with high consistency, so I agree summoning in general is very high power level. 

Also the Stitched can flip from outside the game when Zoraida obeys them to flip.

The opportunity cost with stitched though is you have to have high cards out of your deck. If someone is saving up a lot of severes, I'm going to spam some duels while their deck is weakened.

I have to try that double master...

The bad part of Zoraida/WW has to be keeping WW near of the hag all the time to be able to use that scrap; which is a waste of a very mobile model. However as you say extra models and Wds in the table is very powerful and extra stitched create a dangerous bubble so it may pay off in the right scenario I guess.

The problem is that list is very bubblish. Zoraida, WW and 3 daydreams are 33 SS. So it'd be a deathball but with few board control that may get outschemed. And while it's true that bubble is scary, there are a lot of bubbles in this game where you don't want to enter.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Ogid said:

I have to try that double master...

The bad part of Zoraida/WW has to be keeping WW near of the hag all the time to be able to use that scrap; which is a waste of a very mobile model. However as you say extra models and Wds in the table is very powerful and extra stitched create a dangerous bubble so it may pay off in the right scenario I guess.

The problem is that list is very bubblish. Zoraida, WW and 3 daydreams are 33 SS. So it'd be a deathball but with few board control that may get outschemed. And while it's true that bubble is scary, there are a lot of bubbles in this game where you don't want to enter.

You don't have to keep them close.

First turn, create a voodoo doll. Send it running forward 4-8 inches. Move zoraida forward. Move WW forwards and summon, then drop a web marker.

Second turn, create a voodoo doll. Run it 8 inches to be near the web. Advance Zoraida five inches. Teleport widow weaver to the web and make a stitched and interact or move. create another web.

Third turn might start to get tricky, but at this point if your nightmare models kill stuff, WW gets stuffing tokens. You also are zipping and bobbing back and forth.

But even the stitched turns one and two are super potent. Many games are decided on turns 1, 2, and 3 (which incidentally is why I don't think the lucid dream spam + stitched is as good as people say. It hits insane power level, but a lot of the game is decided by then.

[santaclaws01]

On 12/5/2019 at 2:55 PM, Ogid said:

For your comments and other users comments it seems that you are a very strong player in your meta

I can't comment on each specific game he's played, but he's a regular in the vassal group which has quite a few strong people from the UK and other metas, so it's unlikely there's a big fish small pond scenario happening unless every other dreamer game he's played on vassal aside from the one against me was against some of the weaker players in that group.

[Sharp_GT]

On 12/4/2019 at 7:30 AM, Kharnage said:

... it was brainlessly easy to kill things. I even lost one of my Stitched to Gamble Your Life, but dealt 28 raw damage with two summoned 6 stone minions over 3 turns. About half the time, the Stitched would Lucid Dream the card to Gamble with in its own activation, and the other half I'd just improve my deck and top deck the duels..

So now I'm curious, it sounds like you were using the stitched very aggressively. Were you frequently going for GyL even without any high cards reserved for FG? How aggressively were you hunting for high cards with your lucid dreams? Did you feel like they would still be as powerfull without lucid dreaming?

I'm so used to playing these in m2e where using gamble a bit more consevatively was the smart play until hitting a critical mass of summons. Now I'm thinking that using them a bit more recklessly and prioritizing them for cards may tip their balance. Looking at the numbers in the other thread about lucid dreams, it looks like a list that prioritizes deck improvement is about as good as I have experienced: LD out low cards puts your deck at about +1 by turn three. The stitched interrupt this by making you cycle high cards out-and-in instead of removing low cards, which hurts the rest of your crew. BUT from the sound of it, prioritizing the stitched with your LD may be the better strategy than trying to support the rest of your crew

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

So now I'm curious, it sounds like you were using the stitched very aggressively. Were you frequently going for GyL even without any high cards reserved for FG? How aggressively were you hunting for high cards with your lucid dreams? Did you feel like they would still be as powerfull without lucid dreaming?

I'm so used to playing these in m2e where using gamble a bit more consevatively was the smart play until hitting a critical mass of summons. Now I'm thinking that using them a bit more recklessly and prioritizing them for cards may tip their balance. Looking at the numbers in the other thread about lucid dreams, it looks like a list that prioritizes deck improvement is about as good as I have experienced: LD out low cards puts your deck at about +1 by turn three. The stitched interrupt this by making you cycle high cards out-and-in instead of removing low cards, which hurts the rest of your crew. BUT from the sound of it, prioritizing the stitched with your LD may be the better strategy than trying to support the rest of your crew

Keep in mind that that was in a zoraida crew, where the only source of lucid dreams was the stitched. In that case the better choice is to support themselves because even if all 3 were hired it would take a long time to make a significant impact on the deck. In a dreamer crew it's different because you have a lot more lucid dreams, so you're easily at the point where you can improve your deck quick enough to have an impact on the game and still get enough high cards out for stitched to be able to use them on gambling once per turn. Especially if you're playing against a passive player/crew that doesn't attack the engine.

[Ogid]

9 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

So now I'm curious, it sounds like you were using the stitched very aggressively. Were you frequently going for GyL even without any high cards reserved for FG? How aggressively were you hunting for high cards with your lucid dreams? Did you feel like they would still be as powerfull without lucid dreaming?

As said above, in a non-dreamer list there is no point in trying to remove low cards.

Also it's 28 damage from 2 models in 3 turns so between 4 and 5 damage per model and turn (and there are also commited WW AP summoning the stitcheds and master AP using Obey on them).

[Sharp_GT]

4 hours ago, Ogid said:

Also it's 28 damage from 2 models in 3 turns so between 4 and 5 damage per model and turn (and there are also commited WW AP summoning the stitcheds and master AP using Obey on them).

Yeah, it's about 4 2/3 average damage per turn, which is honestly not great for a dedicated beater, even at 6ss. It is, however, very reliable damage if you're feeding high cards just for FG and then taking a chance on the second gamble. Not crazy damage numbers, but its pretty hard for enemies to avoid...if they're in range

It sounds like if you really invest in the stitched having a high impact, then they will have a high impact. Putting your ap for movement, card selection, and positional advantage towards them allows you to maximize on their one really good trick. My experience is that they aren't very impressive without support, being limited either by their need for lucid dreamed ammo or their pitiful threat range. 

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

Yeah, it's about 4 2/3 average damage per turn, which is honestly not great for a dedicated beater, even at 6ss. It is, however, very reliable damage if you're feeding high cards just for FG and then taking a chance on the second gamble. Not crazy damage numbers, but its pretty hard for enemies to avoid...if they're in range

It sounds like if you really invest in the stitched having a high impact, then they will have a high impact. Putting your ap for movement, card selection, and positional advantage towards them allows you to maximize on their one really good trick. My experience is that they aren't very impressive without support, being limited either by their need for lucid dreamed ammo or their pitiful threat range. 

That's why they are very good area denial pieces. An enemy model getting near of them is going to get damage if the other player removes high cards, and a second GYL isn't guaranteed but it's a risk a lot of models won't want to take. However having a 6'' threat range is like having a 0'' mele attack and Mv5; it may hit hard, but enemies are going to abuse that to make your model ineficient or force the use of extra resources to set up the attack, and it will also make hard for that model to have the initiative.

And also it depends a lot on the models they face. For example a Samurai will take 1/2/3 from GYL and can heal each turn 1/2/4. Versus them those 28 damage would look more like 14-16 being generous, and they would be able to heal around 6-8 without any help (more if they are willing to ditch severes there).

They are good at what they do but can be played around, that's probably why they aren't all over the faction.

[Kharnage]

Went digging through Neverborn's closet and realized the greatest user of Stitched could possibly be... Collodi. His 4 Marionettes can put down 2 of their own number, (Sacrifice 1 attacks Sacrifice 2, Sacrifice 2 attacks Sacrifice 1, 3rd Marionette attacks each of them 1 time, two scrap markers) and as long as you have a pair of nines of masks be it by stone or by card, your in keyword Widow Weaver can summon two Stitched. Collodi Entourage walks his horde up the board twice, and then resummons his dead Marionettes on a 6. So far this whole engine has cost me 8 stones, plus maybe 1-2 soulstones in game.

Cries of "But he's Dead Man's Hand" kinda fall short because DMH has been allowed in every tournament I've ever been to, and I certainly don't have the questionable privilege of playing in the coddled UK meta. The comedy of combining the Lucky Effigy's aura with Know the Warrior from Action Scene on Marionettes aside, Collodi has a very real shot of just putting out absurd amounts of resummonable AP and damage, largely centered on the Stitched. He can even hire Mannequins to keep Ms. Weaver alive. Hinamatsu is like a nice afterthought, honestly. 

[Sharp_GT]

3 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Went digging through Neverborn's closet and realized the greatest user of Stitched could possibly be... Collodi. 

Honestly collodi is fully absurd. I'm surprised tournaments near you allow DMH and aren't totally dominated by the puppet crew. Between collodi's insane efficiency and hiring pool he should be totally oppressive. Never mind the bonker efficient summoning, he's also the best obey master, and one of the most defensive masters, and he buffs his crew/defuffs enemy models. Who needs to waste AP summoning stritched when you can "obey" your coryphee to charge and attack at a [+] with great triggers, or obey the enemy model while also doing 1/2/3 damage and slow with no Tn? Seriously, if you want to dominate your meta in a very un-fun way start playing the puppets

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Cries of "But he's Dead Man's Hand" kinda fall short because DMH has been allowed in every tournament I've ever been to, and I certainly don't have the questionable privilege of playing in the coddled UK meta. 

Well, "but he is dead mans hand" would be a good argument against nerfing stitched because they are too powerful with Collodi. Nerfing or banning Collodi would make more sense.

Though I have to acknowledge if any (Neverborn) minion needs nerfing, stitched is a reasonable candidate. It isn't on the same level as say Iron Skeeters IMO, but is one of the best minions for our faction.

And also have to acknowledge that Widow Weaver summoning stitched can be OP. Ironic that she is a bigger concern than Dreamer summoning them, but there it is. Reducing her stat by 2 would go a long way. Also a big weakness of Henchman summoners is they normally have very poor mobility (a summon and a walk is a crawl). She can summon and still be moving 12+ inches a turn without movement assistance.

I dislike power level errata if it can be avoided, but can see the argument for nerfing WW/stitched combos.

A concern I have with nerfing stitched is then Dreamer is a summoner with very poor options for summoning offensive minions. Other masters rain goryo and jorugumo onto the board, and Dreamer might end up with alps being the strongest option? Gotta be careful to not nerf the entire keyword.

[Ogid]

I'm not into DMH and I don't know how he is in the table, but it's true Collodi seems scary. He seems like the NVB version of Hoffman, with less healing, worse "standard" beaters, ranged threats and synergistic versatiles (in ARC); but with more shenanigans (summoning, GYL, obeys, debuffs, any Emissary at turn 3...). I'd need to see this one in action to see if he is more opressive than other tanky crews...

However a silly one: In theory you could make a Coryphee duet take 21 actions per TURN*; it has counterplay but if the other player fails to do it, his entire crew can be chopped/executed real quick. Keep your stitched, I'd play my turbo duet XD.

*If a model replaced outside of his activation can give an unactivated duet, which isn't covered in the rules and pending of FAQ (more info here and here). Note Hoffman can make a Coryphee duet take 12 actions per turn, 100% legal and with less counterplay.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Though I have to acknowledge if any (Neverborn) minion needs nerfing, stitched is a reasonable candidate. It isn't on the same level as say Iron Skeeters IMO, but is one of the best minions for our faction.

Stitched seems a nighmarish (pun intended) model to change to be honest. He is an important damage dealer in Nightmare, kind of a versatile thanks to Vasilisa, also see play with Zoraida thanks to her doll and is also a part of Collodi/Hinamatsu crew. The good thing is he is brought to the table with 2 different summoning abilities and can also be hired, which leaves room to do more surgical changes if needed. But as said above, he isn't being played all over the faction, nor seems to be dominating tournaments.