Stitched Together. Gamble your Life rework suggestions.

[Sharp_GT]

Ah, no I get it now, FG in a severe, blind flip or cheat for a severe for damage, blind flip to win again, then blind flip or cheat again for damage. Frankly with that amount of luck or resources invested any model should be deleting an enemy

[Mycellanious]

1 minute ago, Sharp_GT said:

Ah, no I get it now, FG in a severe, blind flip or cheat for a severe for damage, blind flip to win again, then blind flip or cheat again for damage. Frankly with that amount of luck or resources invested any model should be deleting an enemy

Well, no because for normal attacks things like negative flips exist. It would take significantly more resources to hit severe damage twice for another model because very rarely can the damage flip be cheated

[ShinChan]

9 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

Ah, no I get it now, FG in a severe, blind flip or cheat for a severe for damage, blind flip to win again, then blind flip or cheat again for damage. Frankly with that amount of luck or resources invested any model should be deleting an enemy

So winning two blind flip is that difficult? After that you only need 1 severe in hand (12 cards in deck) and 1 severe removed from the game. 

We have different conceptions on high resource investment. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, Monster Hunters are a six cost model, and with two focused attacks and two severes, they can have pretty solid odds of taking out a mature nephilim in a single activation. There's a reason they're considered a glass cannon.

And people keep assuming a super powerful deck. When I play the Dreamer, I typically have ~10 weak cards removed from the deck by turns 3 and 4, and 1-2 severe cards for the stitched to work with. That's hardly the power level people are talking about.

When you DO reach that power level is when your entire crew is dedicated to the lucid dreaming strategy... and when you focus your entire crew on a particular strategy, it is no surprise when the payoff for that strategy becomes potent.

Hell, McMourning has a totem that costs 1 and has a 'min' 5 attack on stat 5. And all you have to do to get it up to min 5 is stack poison on the enemy (something your crew wants to be doing anyway). But we all know it's not that OP because there are limits and setup.

Stitched Together on the other hand feel difficult to counterplay, and you sometimes feel like you couldn't do anything (which is the case with any powerful attack where they're expending resources to guarantee the hit). But their overall damage:resources committed ratio is within the realm of acceptable IMO. At least, I don't field them that often. But I don't play the lucid dream spam strategy.

One example of a change Wyrd could make would be to make Stitched cost 7 and Insidious Madness cost 6, which IMO would be a pretty solid buff to the crew.

All that said, I do think there is a bit of an issue with summoners in general and their power level being exceptionally high. But Dreamer is no more broken than the other summoners (and indeed, at least on a summoning level, seems a lot weaker than summoning Goryo or 4 Jorogumo in a game).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another issue facing the Dreamer that can make him (and Stitched) feel overpowered is people don't pressure him enough early game.

If you play a slow game, and let the Dreamer build up a potent force and a thinned deck, he will destroy you turns 4 and 5. But if you're spending turns 1 and 2 dominating him before he gets up to full strength, he is going to struggle a lot more. So will the stitched.

On plant explosives for instance, if you secure your points turns 1, 2, and 3 and deny the Dreamer... You can spend turns 4 and 5 letting his crew chew through your crew, but that leaves him with no time to scheme.

[Ogid]

5 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Well, no because for normal attacks things like negative flips exist. It would take significantly more resources to hit severe damage twice for another model because very rarely can the damage flip be cheated

That doesn't take into account the ranges; to do a double GYL the Mature has to walk into that 6'' range and not kill the stitched. A mature has a bonus action+charge range of 14'', he can go wherever he wants. If he decides to enter in the killing area of a model that perfectly bypass his defenses, that's not on the stitched.

That's a dream scenario (pun intended) for the stitched , a model vulnerable to him (no damage reduction) casualy walking next to him and he nailing 2 GYL. With Focused+1 in the Mature, he can kill the stitched from far away of its 11''/6'' threat range. Or just bypass him and kill the 3 Daydreams in 1 activation destroying dreamer LD machine (and this needs no focused).

There is counterplay, it's about using well the resources of each crew.

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

But can you name any other beater that can GUARUNTEE an attack? I know plenty of beaters that can make multiple attacks, but I've also seen them whiff plenty of attacks. I've had Niel Henry miss 4 attacks against Abuela and Mei Feng miss 8 against a Watcher. That literally cannot happen to this 6ss minion.

Sorry this is untrue, its hyerbole

The stitched can't guarantee 100% that it will win. In the circumstance where you have used your black joker already and you hold at least a 4 in hand, you have lucid dreamed away a 13 and your opponent has already used their red joker then yes you can, but if you replace the 13 in Lucid dreams + holding at least a 4 in hand,  vs holding a 13 in hand, then there are a lot of times that a lot of models can GUARANTEE an attack.  ( The stitched needs less requirements to "guarantee" it can Hit Titania with its ml attack than with its Gamble your life for example).

It is entirely possible for this model to miss 2 gambles in its activation even if you have already got the 13 removed from the game. It might not be as likely to happen, but it is Literally possible. It is also possible that it can miss 3 gambles during its activation if you make it fast. (So unless you meant it wasn't literally possible for it to miss 4 times because it isn't possible for it to make 4 attacks in an activation.

It might be less likely that this model fails all its attacks, but I hate hyperbole presented as facts.

 

 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

18 hours ago, Fixxer said:

Because its my opinion dude, thats what we do here. I thought.  

Sure, but you said that it was proof. I mean, I could be of the opinion that, I dunno, Spawn Mother having Mv 6 being proof of Stitched are OK but that would be quite non-sensical (to pick an absurdist example). You posited that not being hired OOK and not being spam-hired in keyword means that a model cannot be problematic which is IMO untrue based on previous examples so I challenged your view. That's what we do here, I thought

Quote

If you are comparing summoning stitched togethers in 3E which is once per turn, and buried needing a WP fail before they come into play VS Nicodem's summoning in the end of 2E then I dont know what to tell you. The power level between the two are so far apart, Its ridiculous.    There are many universal rules that have changed since 1E and 2E, like summoning once per turn etc... Also, the KW system is great and does provide us data on whats being taken at +1ss which can be a clear indication of power level and models that excel outside of the design ethos. I see those as more likely candidates for Erratas, not carefully designed models that fill a clear and defined role in a KW. 

I was using Nicodem as an example of how your proof isn't actually proof. I wasn't comparing the Summoning mechanics between editions. Or are you saying that no Summon can be problematic in M3e no matter the circumstances? As for the OOK thing, I already noted that models in M3e are often very synergistic and even very problematic ones can be fine outside of their specific synergies.

Also note that Stitched have been problematic in M1e and M2e as well and they were always problematic only in a select few crews and mostly due to them being Summonable (Collodi and Lucky Effigy notwithstanding) so this is hardly anything new.

But aside from that, I must admit that I'm kinda hard-pressed to think of another 6SS model in the game that is as durable, deadly, and synergistic to their crew as the Stitched are.

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Sorry this is untrue, its hyerbole

The stitched can't guarantee 100% that it will win. In the circumstance where you have used your black joker already and you hold at least a 4 in hand, you have lucid dreamed away a 13 and your opponent has already used their red joker then yes you can, but if you replace the 13 in Lucid dreams + holding at least a 4 in hand,  vs holding a 13 in hand, then there are a lot of times that a lot of models can GUARANTEE an attack.  ( The stitched needs less requirements to "guarantee" it can Hit Titania with its ml attack than with its Gamble your life for example).

It is entirely possible for this model to miss 2 gambles in its activation even if you have already got the 13 removed from the game. It might not be as likely to happen, but it is Literally possible. It is also possible that it can miss 3 gambles during its activation if you make it fast. (So unless you meant it wasn't literally possible for it to miss 4 times because it isn't possible for it to make 4 attacks in an activation.

It might be less likely that this model fails all its attacks, but I hate hyperbole presented as facts.

 

 

 

I was wrong about FGling the tn to guarantee a hit, its a holdover from when we thought stiched flipped one card for tn, attack, and damage. But I'm  sorry, I dont consider hoping for the red or black joker to be a consistent, reasonable game plan. If the deck is thin and you havent seen a joker you should consider it. But you cant go into a game planing, "Model X will do this, then his Stiched will Black Joker, which will allow model Y to do this..." its just not a consistent plan in Malifaux. Not to mention for every time a model hero flips a red joker against stitched, theres a time when a model red jokers its tn 6 action. If you are relying on the jokers to consistently suceed, then that action is all but guaranteed. 

I also dont consider FGling in a 13 to be worth nearly as much as cheating a card from hand. This is firstly because theres pressure on your hand from all models for various things, but there is only pressure from fiendish gamble from the stitched and only for its 1 thing. Furthermore, Dreamer gets to see a LOT of his deck from Lucid Dreaming (assuming a crew with 3 Daydreams because thats all I see) so its really not hard to find a 12 or 13 if he wants it for a Stitched, whereas only 6-10 cards are seen in hand for a normal crew after stoning and if you have card draw. This also ignores that there are ways to pressure your opponents hand, but not ways to pressure cards he removed from his deck. After thinking, Agent 46 probably has a better chance to suceed on his attack, but is a 9ss Henchman with a worse damage track and no range by default. 

People's perception of FG seems to flip between "a way to guarantee a good attack at cost to your other models" and "a way to rescue high cards you were forced to remove, thereby bettering your other models in the long run" and I get that it can be both, but I think the claim that removing a 13 temporarily significantly hurts the deck of the Dreamer is false because in all likelihood it will be back in the deck by the end of the turn. I do think its a cool ability that I'd like to see stay, but I think currently it makes GYL way too powerful. 

This is also ignoring the fact that your opponent is probably glad you red jokered your defense against his 6ss model ranged harass, and not attacking one of his models, and if he black jokers his tn, he didnt waste his 13 or his Fiendish Gamble so hes free to just, take the action again. 

So yea, GYL can fail, but the odds of it failing are so small its hardly worth considering, the opportunity cost of the action is also negligable, and even the backfire penalty is hardly noticable. I've literally only seen GYL fail twice, once a backfire, which was healed by end of turn, and once when I Obeyed an enemy Stitched and didnt want to cheat a high card to hit the tn. 

[Adran]

I fully agree its not a game plan to have a joker happen on a certain flip. I also agree that Fiendish gamble is much more powerful on a card flip when you couldn't normally cheat, meaning that it is very strong when you use gamble your life, much more so than using it on the melee attack to hit. Perhaps that's a possible change to it as an ability - add the line that "if this flip is used for Gamble your life, the opponent may cheat their flip."

But the fact I can't plan for it is not the same as saying it doesn't happen.  And that's what I was objecting to.

And actually if I faced a stitched the red joker against the fiendish gambled attack is probably one of the better times for it to show up. Its giving me an effective 2 action swing, including wasting a once per activation ability.  That's a relatively strong use of the red joker, I can't think of many more efficient uses (Summoning is one that is probably better if you need the 14 for a TN).

 

[Ogid]

13 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Also note that Stitched have been problematic in M1e and M2e as well and they were always problematic only in a select few crews and mostly due to them being Summonable (Collodi and Lucky Effigy notwithstanding) so this is hardly anything new.

But aside from that, I must admit that I'm kinda hard-pressed to think of another 6SS model in the game that is as durable, deadly, and synergistic to their crew as the Stitched are.

There are a lot of changes from M2E to M3E, maybe all this stitched hate is also people remembering how they were back there? I read before 7 max damage lol.

However there are a lot of terrific models in the 6SS range, let me name my favourites 6SS models:

• Coryphee: Df6, Armor+2, Mv6, 2/4/5 stat6, nimble and agile, can give Focused to other models, may create a duet. Competent at fighting and scheming.
• Paul Crockett: 14'' carabine with Coordinated attack and his own Scent of Blood ability. If this guy manage to hit a model, an engaged sabertooth could attack potentialy 3 times (min damage 3)
• Silent One: 17'' heals and slows, may blast damage and generate SS.
• SS miner: Nuff said
• Wind Gaming: Top notch schemer Mv6, flight, Armor+1, suited leap.
• Bokor: Amazing support, free focused, fast and suits (attack him with the doll). Shielded, heals, obeys, card draw (and cicle)...
• Moon Shinobi: Mv6, Druken Kung Fu, Stealth, self-healing and self-1'' push.
• Rami: Stat 6 clockwork rifle versus most models with Sniper and Advanced sights. Swift trigger, critical strike, piercing and No-Witnesses, quick retreat.
• Silurid: Another top notch schemer (suited leap, stealth, butterfly jump)
• Exorcist: H2W, 14'' Exorcism trigger (one shooting Jorogumos like a boss)
• Guild  Steward: Good support (condition removal, focused and heals) plus a Seamus Gun as a parting guift.
• Monster Hunter: Stat6 vs Sz3+ and 2/4/5 damage track from 12'' with creep along.
• Pathfinder: Stat5 concealment ignoring 2/4/5 track from 14'', plus clockwork trap summoning, creating concealing or pushing other models.
• Rifleman: Stat6 vs activated clockwork rifle with Sniper and good triggers, quick retreat.
• BBS: Pulse focused, heal, help with ping damage, quick (Mv6 flight and Fly with me), evolve into a Mature.
• Iggy: Arson, Reckless, 3-4 damage per attack (2 weak, plus misery ping, plus burning)
• Freikorps Engineer: Armor+1, Tools for the job, Shielded+2, heal, card darw, focused, concealment, plus a range 12'' decent attack.
• Ronin: H2K, 5'' free movement, Flurry. Stat 5 2/3/5 ignoring armor (puncture), also ranged 12'' and able to kill herself for cards and SS.
• Scion of the Void: Min3 beater vs buried models, fade away df trigger.
• Drowned: Vengeance, H2W, Combat Finesse, 7Wds (df4 tho). Good attacks and control (including startle as bonus action)
• Nurse: another pro support with Manipulative, Tools for the Job, perverse metabolism...
• Rabble Risser: H2W, 7wds, Flurry that gives also Focused and 2/3/4 with Critical strike and quick reflexes.
• Huckster: Manipulative, False Claim and Secret Passage (nice scoring model)
• Komainu: Armor+2, H2K, Take the hit, Mv7 with a Reliquary. Decent attacks and bonus action Pounce on chest.
• Kunoichi: Disguised, Bullet proof, Nihilism, Tools for the job. situational min4 damage or min3 ignoring armor. Able to give Focused.
• Mr Tannen: Very annoying auras (Betrayal, Boring Conversation), Rig the deck+2 among other tricks.
• Torakage: Mv7 Stealth Agile model with Ninja banish bonus action.
• Yokai: From Beyond (kind of free focused) and high mobility plus interact bonus action.

My point with all this is that a 6SS model is expensive enough to be very compentent at what it does. In the above list there are models that excel at their particular roles: For example top notch schemers like Silurid, Torakage or Wind Gamin; terrific supports, a Bokor for example may give a ton of Focused, healing and Shielded+1 to models around him, the Steward brings all a support need and a really nasty demise and Nurses are frecuent OOK picks for how good their kit is; there are also jack of all trades there like the Coryphee, Yokai, Silent one or the Kunoichi; Very good shooters like Rami or the Rifleman; tanky models like Komainu or a Coryphee. Also some cool shenanigans, for example a BBS can become a 10SS model, Exorcist one shooting summons, Scion attacking buried or Pathfinders summoning.

There are also good close range fighters there that are maybe the more comparable to Stitcheds: Coryphee, Iggy, Ronin, Scion, Rabble Risser, Kunoichi or Yokai. Those bypass less defenses than Stitched but outclass him in other departments. Coryphee is a jack of all trades. Iggy is glassy only relying in Manipulative, but he could deal 9 damage just with weak hits (not counting Burning) and brings top notch scheme denial; Ronnin shred armor like nobody business while also having a decent ranged attack and 5'' free movement each turn, Scion is a min3 beater ready to punish anything buried by his crew. Rabble risser may spam attacks and get 1 free focused using Flurry while also being hard to put down; I personaly like the Kunoichi a lot, she may use the Distracted her crew gives to ramp up her damage track to stat6 4/5/6 while also having a ton of utility outside of that; Yokai is super mobile with Frenzied charge and Ephemeral Warriors, so he is a decen hitter and a competent schemers very flicker hungry tho.

 

Stitched gimmick is being able to bypass some defenses and guarantee hits in targets that other 6SS models struggle, but he is a combat model with 0 utility, mobility tricks, low range and with an ability that may damage himself and that make hard and dangerous for him ramping up the damage. With the right set up he is a good area denial piece being tough enough to not being easily killed and having a high risk high reward quite unique damaging ability, but that's all he does. Take away his damage and you end with a tanky model (for 6SS) easily ignorable that is a liability to the crew; you'll see 1 max to compensate bad LDs and it would also limit the damage summoning option of Dreamer as that's the role he is filling.

Having a 6SS model so specialized in close range damage and area control have advantages and disadvantages; they are easier to summon than 8-9SS beaters and can be hired more easily; however that also make the damage source of the crew vulnerable to alpha strikes and are less powerful than a theoreticaly 7-8SS version. Plus as commented above they are much less spammable than other 6SS beaters for how removing high cards punish dreamer.

Stitched is good at what he does, but as other 6SS models are in their respectives "expertises". However he isn't being taken OOK, not even when NVB offers way to get him at discounted prize (some of the above list are worth it even with the +1SS tax). It's a model that may destroy with a double lucky GYL some models that walk carelessly into his 6''; but as they are so slow and low range the the other player may play around them, and also knowing they are coming hire models more resistant to them. For example, some models of the above list have 12 or 14'' guns with stat 6; those could put a ton of pressure in the stitcheds; killing them or softening them enough to make very easy for other models to finish them off. As said before, it's about knowing your crew, the other crew and bringing the right tools.

 

This thread have derrailed from the original focus... but It's Ok I guess; imo Stitcheds are fine so there is real need for a rework just to appease the masses. And in this thread there are a lot of useful info that a player struggling to play with or versus them may use

[Kharnage]

To put my money where my mouth is, I played a Vassal game last night with Zoraida, hired Widow Weaver to summon in Stitched off of dead Voodoo Dolls, and it was brainlessly easy to kill things. I even lost one of my Stitched to Gamble Your Life, but dealt 28 raw damage with two summoned 6 stone minions over 3 turns. About half the time, the Stitched would Lucid Dream the card to Gamble with in its own activation, and the other half I'd just improve my deck and top deck the duels, knowing that I could just summon back dead ones (before Weaver died, of course). I had a bit of extra positioning opportunity to summon because I was playing into Mei Feng and scrap was everywhere rather than just where I summoned/killed dolls, but the fact remains the same; I got to run schemes/strats with Bad Juju, First Mate, and Widow Weaver because their AP being spent to scheme run was more efficient than using the Stitched. 
I doubt that this will change anyone's minds though; if I say "it's too strong, just look at the cards", its dismissed as Theoryfaux, and if I say "I've played games where it's dumb", it's dismissed as anecdotal. There is no point I could make where defenders of the Stitched would be like "Yeah okay maybe they need a little nudge".

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

There are a lot of changes from M2E to M3E, maybe all this stitched hate is also people remembering how they were back there? I read before 7 max damage lol.

Damages were higher across the board in M2e - if you are not familiar with it, I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on a random stat. Also, I have to admit that I find it mildly insulting to suggest that people are just railing against M2e versions.

 

Then, you list a ton of models but I would posit that absolutely none of them combine the resilience and damage potential of a Stitched. I mean, I'm massively in favour of nerfing SS Miners but they don't do as much damage so don't really answer my question.

Being competent in what one does is fine - a Huckster (or Silurid) is a very mobile Schemer. But Stitched combines durability and damage into one package in a way that I can't think of any other model in the game does at 6SS.

You mention Coryphee, Iggy, Ronin, Scion, Rabble Rouser, Kunoichi and Yokai and I don't see any of them really close to Stitched if you look at both of those variables that I pointed out.

Quote

Stitched gimmick is being able to bypass some defenses and guarantee hits in targets that other 6SS models struggle, but he is a combat model with 0 utility, mobility tricks, low range and with an ability that may damage himself and that make hard and dangerous for him ramping up the damage.

"Bypass some defenses" is kind of an understatement when they bypass like 90% of the various defenses that the game has being mostly just Armor and HtW that they actually care about. Added to this is the fact that many of the more expensive models have exotic defenses that are all zero utility against a Stitched so they are often at their most dangerous against the most expensive models.

They also have massive utility in how they interact with the cards removed from the game. Dreamer players in this very thread have implied that this interaction is core to the design of Dreamer. So 0 utility seems kinda dishonest. As for mobility tricks - when they are summoned they hardly need all that much in the way of mobility, do they?

Finally, out of interest, how often do you have Stitched hitting themselves? Is it more or less often than once per game?

[Sharp_GT]

My opinion on the stitched is that the swingey nature makes them fine as is. Yes we've seen games where they wreck house, and I've had games where they suck and die becasue the cards didn't agree, Ok, so we'll apparently never agree on if the stitched need a rework; but maybe we can talk about @Ogid's original question, what would make them less of a negative experience from the opponants perspective?

How about we change them to be closer to the M2E version: get rid of fiendish gamble, make gamble your life an attack action again, make the damage uncheatable 3/4/6 with no modifiers?

Maybe get rid of lucid dreams across the keyword, is that the real sticking point? This would make GyL a true gamble, with the same upsides.

Just drop the damage to 2/4/5? 

Make gamble a once per activation? It's usually used once anyhow

[Kharnage]

23 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

My opinion on the stitched is that the swingey nature makes them fine as is. Yes we've seen games where they wreck house, and I've had games where they suck and die becasue the cards didn't agree, Ok, so we'll apparently never agree on if the stitched need a rework; but maybe we can talk about @Ogid's original question, what would make them less of a negative experience from the opponants perspective?

Sounds like we need to make an effort to reduce both the risk, and the reward, for their actions to make them less "swingy". Like, reducing the track to 2/3/4 for example :^) That way, they can fail more of these without dying, and also they don't instantly delete models far above their poundage. 

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Kharnage said:

To put my money where my mouth is, I played a Vassal game last night with Zoraida, hired Widow Weaver to summon in Stitched off of dead Voodoo Dolls, and it was brainlessly easy to kill things. I even lost one of my Stitched to Gamble Your Life, but dealt 28 raw damage with two summoned 6 stone minions over 3 turns. About half the time, the Stitched would Lucid Dream the card to Gamble with in its own activation, and the other half I'd just improve my deck and top deck the duels, knowing that I could just summon back dead ones (before Weaver died, of course). I had a bit of extra positioning opportunity to summon because I was playing into Mei Feng and scrap was everywhere rather than just where I summoned/killed dolls, but the fact remains the same; I got to run schemes/strats with Bad Juju, First Mate, and Widow Weaver because their AP being spent to scheme run was more efficient than using the Stitched. 
I doubt that this will change anyone's minds though; if I say "it's too strong, just look at the cards", its dismissed as Theoryfaux, and if I say "I've played games where it's dumb", it's dismissed as anecdotal. There is no point I could make where defenders of the Stitched would be like "Yeah okay maybe they need a little nudge".

Don't get us wrong, different folks, different experiences. They aren't bad model at all, and when their limitations aren't used agains them, they may puch above other models of his cost can versus certain kind of models (and they can also kill themselves). I'm just pointing all their weaknessess and the fact that if they were that good, they would be in every list of the faction, but they aren't.

In your case I think I understand why they are so frustrating to you. You seems to be a very agressive player, and like your elite 8SS worth of upgrades Nephilim lists with models hard to hit thanks to combat finesse and butterfly jump going for the throat. Stitcheds punish and are good versus just that kind of list, playstile and models (hard to hit, no damage reduction and less Wds in the team because there are a lot of SS allocated in upgrades). They are a cost effective area denial models that will ignore all those defensive tech. You seems to still win versus dreamer using that strategy, I guess that outmaneuvering them or just alpha striking dreamer; but it's normal you are struggling in some games playing right into a counter.

Zoraida with the free scrap is a very good master to field them (but that also require 8-9 SS to a summoner that has to be near of Zoraida all game) and they may help to defend the hag better. If a player think they can break that, then he should rush in; if not then they could focus in the mobile models stitcheds will struggle to keep up with and scheme. Facing them with no answers can be frustrating, but there are a lot of crews that when a player has no answer can be frustrating; again it's all about picking a good crew and not expose vulnerable models to them.

I don't have definitive answers, I see they are good but I don't think they are broken and can understand they could be a headache for some players depending on their favourite models and playstile. However if they demostrate to be a problem; I'm all in for reworking them into a less problematic model with the same role.

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

You mention Coryphee, Iggy, Ronin, Scion, Rabble Rouser, Kunoichi and Yokai and I don't see any of them really close to Stitched if you look at both of those variables that I pointed out.

That's kind of true, but because stitched is a one trick; he only does 2 things well: Being hard to kill and GYL (and GYL may backfire if done more than once). Every one of the above can do several other things and don't have the swingy nature of the stitcheds. Stitched creates an area around him where if the other player put squishy models, he will get punished. But it offers counterplay that may be used against them. Just go around them doing schemes, soften them outranging their short zone or alpha them.

Coryphee or Rabble Rissers are quite near (or even above in the Coryphee case) in endurance. Ronin is much better than him versus armored targets, way faster and quite versatile with the 12'' gun. Kunoichi may range from an impressive 4/5/6 track with stat6 with the right set up, to give Focused like a Tanuki to destroy isolated targets with "No Witnesses"; while also having solid defensive tech and also "I've got your back". Scion may hit any buried model (which is hard to compare with standard ranges but it wouldn't be short range), and he hits hard. Yokai isn't that good hitter, but he is nimble and can also double scheme. Meanwhile stitcheds is a sitting duck, a dangerous one.

 

Cool, then on track again:

1 hour ago, Sharp_GT said:

How about we change them to be closer to the M2E version: get rid of fiendish gamble, make gamble your life an attack action again, make the damage uncheatable 3/4/6 with no modifiers?

Maybe get rid of lucid dreams across the keyword, is that the real sticking point? This would make GyL a true gamble, with the same upsides.

Just drop the damage to 2/4/5? 

Make gamble a once per activation? It's usually used once anyhow

About these.

• Fiendish Gamble gives him a lot of identity and I also stated before why I think is a very cool mechanic so I wouldn't rule that one out (check the first few answers of this thread for extra details)
• The uncheatable 3/4/6 would make them more swingly... I like that, they couldn't guarantee high damage when they wanted (and there is also higher risk for them when failing) but that 6 damage is a good trade off; and it'd also have good synergy with dreamer removing weak cards. It could be interesting to try.
• LD is a huge part of the Dreamers identity and removing it would require reworking the entire keyword... overkill and impoverish the game. Big no-no for me.
• Droping it to 2/4/5 only make it worse versus the kind of targets that he isn't struggling anyway (H2W) while still being as good as it is versus the rest; not my favourite.
• The once per activation could help to avoid the double GYL that feels so bad, so I like this one. However as I said in the OP, I'd buff his mele to compensate it. They are only good at one thing, going near of them should still be scary.

49 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Sounds like we need to make an effort to reduce both the risk, and the reward, for their actions to make them less "swingy". Like, reducing the track to 2/3/4 for example :^) That way, they can fail more of these without dying, and also they don't instantly delete models far above their poundage. 

I also like this one a reduced damage track will make the "safer" GYL less noticeable and will make them more risky. However some adjustements to keep their damage up and they dangerous enough to discourage models to go near of them should be done imo (elaborated here)

 

Another idea: Make WW/Vasilisa add an upgrade to summoned stitcheds modifying them a bit. Making their mele better and GYL way worse so they are closer to other 6SS models; that way they keep their position in a Dreamer crew but when summoned by a secondary summoner they would lose some of that defense piercing punch if that's what is creating problems in other crews (not sure if that is true tho)... For example:

• Add to the "Careful Assembly" action this line at the end: "If the summoned model is an Stitched Together, attach the Toy Maker Upgrade to it."
• This is the upgrade (I put it in a box for an easier read):

Quote

• Name: Toy Soldiers
• Cost: 0
• Faction: NVB
• Limitations: Special (Toy Maker); Plentiful (3)
• Effect:

This upgrade is ignored by other models.

This model's Gamble your Life's damage track is reduced to 2/3/4, range to 2'' and gains the "Once per Activation" Limitation.

This model gains the following action:

Deadly Claws (1''; 5; Df; -): Target suffers 2/4/5 damage.

      "Puncture"

      "Raise the Bet": Once per Activation. After resolving, this model takes the "Gamble your Life" action, ignoring the "Once per Activation" limitation.

I'm not sure if the above would be necessary or not, but if they are causing problems when summoned by the WW/Vasi, that could streamline them a bit without having to change the model summoned by Dreamer or hired.

The "This upgrade is ignored by other models" is there to not making them worse versus crews that interact with upgrades and it's not a summoning upgrade to not mess with other abilities (exorcism trigger mainly).

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

My opinion on the stitched is that the swingey nature makes them fine as is. Yes we've seen games where they wreck house, and I've had games where they suck and die becasue the cards didn't agree, Ok, so we'll apparently never agree on if the stitched need a rework; but maybe we can talk about @Ogid's original question, what would make them less of a negative experience from the opponants perspective?

How about we change them to be closer to the M2E version: get rid of fiendish gamble, make gamble your life an attack action again, make the damage uncheatable 3/4/6 with no modifiers?

Maybe get rid of lucid dreams across the keyword, is that the real sticking point? This would make GyL a true gamble, with the same upsides.

Just drop the damage to 2/4/5? 

Make gamble a once per activation? It's usually used once anyhow

I actually really like Fiendish Gamble, its cool and thematic and plays an important role in the crew that also make the Stitched unique as a hire and summon. I just think that GYL should be based around FG instead of the other way round (my opinion). I also really like the theme of the Stitched as cheating natards and like the idea of "one set of rules for you, and a better set of rules for me"

I'd probably increase the range to 8" so just outside of charge range but within walk-charge range. I think GYL should have the following restrictions: "This Action ignores the Armor abilities of other models (but not its own). This model may cheat the damage of this Action lower, but not higher."

My reasoning being allowing the Stitches to avoid most most the damage if they fail, while also forcing them to choose between using FG to make the attack hit or to secure severe dmg. The idea being to make it so the Stitched can either gamble on the attack hitting, but secure high damage, or secure a successful attack but gamble on its damage output. 

I also think the damage track should probably be lowered to like 2/3/5 or 2/3/4. It may also be fun to give them a damage track of like 5/4/3 to make him choose between adding a Weak back into the deck for an immediate damage gain or a Severe for lower damage but keeping the deck rigged, but thats probably way too much of a nerf. 

I also think id be cool if on ties BOTH models were damaged, but Im unsure if thats too big a nerf. 

[Ogid]

19 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I'd probably increase the range to 8" so just outside of charge range but within walk-charge range. I think GYL should have the following restrictions: "This Action ignores the Armor abilities of other models (but not its own). This model may cheat the damage of this Action lower, but not higher."

My reasoning being allowing the Stitches to avoid most most the damage if they fail, while also forcing them to choose between using FG to make the attack hit or to secure severe dmg. The idea being to make it so the Stitched can either gamble on the attack hitting, but secure high damage, or secure a successful attack but gamble on its damage output. 

I also think the damage track should probably be lowered to like 2/3/5 or 2/3/4. It may also be fun to give them a damage track of like 5/4/3 to make him choose between adding a Weak back into the deck for an immediate damage gain or a Severe for lower damage but keeping the deck rigged, but thats probably way too much of a nerf. 

I also think id be cool if on ties BOTH models were damaged, but Im unsure if thats too big a nerf. 

I like some of these...

• Not sure about the Armor thing, it'd make the ability too good versus armored targets (which also could have less than average Wds); keeping the armor as counterplay is necessary imo.
• The 8'' would make the ability quite better, his double gamble bubble would be higher, couldn't be outranged by 8'' or 12'' guns... it's a possiblity but that would require some nerfs to his damage or reliability.
• The "This model may cheat lower but not higher" is something to consider... it'd make them less reliable for big hits so it'd need something more... it could pair well with the above one for example.
• While the 5/4/3 is funny; however it'd be an antisynergy with Dreamer, making them better outside of the keyword and would favor using FG to win the duel and then just cheat a weak card for huge damage. Not like it.
• The both damage in a tie is also a nerf to consider if they needed some adjustments.

A 8'' GYL able only to cheat lower damage could also be something to consider; but I'm a bit afraid a 8'' GYL would be too good even with non cheatable severe damage...

[Math Mathonwy]

39 minutes ago, Ogid said:

That's kind of true, but because stitched is a one trick; he only does 2 things well: Being hard to kill and GYL (and GYL may backfire if done more than once). Every one of the above can do several other things and don't have the swingy nature of the stitcheds. Stitched creates an area around him where if the other player put squishy models, he will get punished. But it offers counterplay that may be used against them. Just go around them doing schemes, soften them outranging their short zone or alpha them.

If making a 13" diameter no-go-zone for 6SS doesn't win you games, I'm honestly weirded out by how your games go  I mean, if your opponents can just trivially avoid them, maybe you need to work on your placement skills or something.

[Ogid]

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

If making a 13" diameter no-go-zone for 6SS doesn't win you games, I'm honestly weirded out by how your games go  I mean, if your opponents can just trivially avoid them, maybe you need to work on your placement skills or something.

Haha, not a 13'' bubble, just a 6''. The really dangerous thing is going too close and get a double GYL that with bad luck may deal a lot of damage. The objetive is making them walk and use GYL, that's quite low efficiency for a 3-5 damage plus all the high card set up (and if they cheat a severe, that's a severe not used in one of the guys with 6 max damage). They are going to deal damage, the idea is not making easy for them to pile on the same target; specially a target without Armor/H2W/SS use and forcing them to go out of position.

[Kharnage]

49 minutes ago, Ogid said:

In your case I think I understand why they are so frustrating to you. You seems to be a very agressive player, and like your elite 8SS worth of upgrades Nephilim lists with models hard to hit thanks to combat finesse and butterfly jump going for the throat. Stitcheds punish and are good versus just that kind of list, playstile and models (hard to hit, no damage reduction and less Wds in the team because there are a lot of SS allocated in upgrades). They are a cost effective area denial models that will ignore all those defensive tech. You seems to still win versus dreamer using that strategy, I guess that outmaneuvering them or just alpha striking dreamer; but it's normal you are struggling in some games playing right into a counter.

I am of course as you say, a humble servant of the God Empress, but that's just it; I actually come at the Stitched Together problem from a place of privilege. Nekima can kill them, and only just so. Access to plink damage from Blade Rush and Black Blood and chunk damage coming out of focused Stat 7 attacks is uniquely suited to bring them down, since their Df 6 armor 1 6 health makes them hugely annoying to deal with for their cost, and that's with the poison stacking penalty aside. My threshold for a person whom I can say with confidence will bring down a 6 stone minion without investing more than 2 AP is arguably the highest form of damage focused beater master, in the entire game. With Shaman focus support, no less. People who are actually good at killing things, that is to say, the plethora of stat 6 3/4/5 or 3/4/6 tracks in the game, can be matched out on a duel against Df 6 even with focus, and are quite likely to deal 2 damage, suffering poison in the process. 
The ambiguous and ever helpful "Just do shoot damage" is just what a dreamer player would say; they arbitrarily have wide access an armor ignoring attack that can target the model's weaker WP. For most of us, dealing actual AP efficient damage requires us to swing a sword, a claw, a Bisento, or flex our Chi-Infused abs. And the idea that I, or anyone, has to deny themselves 6 inch bubbles (that is to say, 13 inch diameter, as @Math Mathonwy says, since you'd measure 6 inches to the left and right of the 1 inch wide Stitched) of territory because Dreamer cunningly plopped down a 6 stone minion that indeed by definition MUST unbury on top of enemy models, is a pretty deaf understanding of what a 6 stone model should be able to do. 

[Ogid]

Ok, 13'' bubble true; I was thinking in how far you have to stay from it.

It's a good model. However they won't do much more than 1 or 2 at best GLY (6 to 10 damage per turn for 12SS worth of models), further than that is a gamble. Other beaters don't kill themselves when failing an attack, plus they have other stats Wp and Mv are still 5 and any decent beater doing 1 or 2 damage and getting a lot of Posion vs an stitched which isn't burning high removed cards isn't doing its job well.... but I kind of feel that I'm just repeating myself at this point.

However long range attacks are an option, Dreamer's crew "gun" is 8'' and unless firing into Armor+2 the damage track isn't particularily impressive (2/3/4); it helps versus armor but the mele options of the crew are far better in most scenarios; Dreamer will hardly win a gunfight into a decent gunline.

Also what gives games is scoring, and stitcheds are awful at anything that's not controling an area, all their (almost) safe damage doesn't worth a dime if there are schemers outmaneouvering them and getting the job done. And if the pool favores controlling an area, then the other player knows what to expect and should bring something able to face them. Adapting to the other crew's perks is the name of the game.

Honestly with all the things models and crews can do in this game I don't think they are particularily problematic; but again this is just my opinion and I could be wrong, but right now the meta in NVB doesn't seem to point towards they being too good.

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 hours ago, Kharnage said:

To put my money where my mouth is, I played a Vassal game last night with Zoraida, hired Widow Weaver to summon in Stitched off of dead Voodoo Dolls, and it was brainlessly easy to kill things. I even lost one of my Stitched to Gamble Your Life, but dealt 28 raw damage with two summoned 6 stone minions over 3 turns. About half the time, the Stitched would Lucid Dream the card to Gamble with in its own activation, and the other half I'd just improve my deck and top deck the duels, knowing that I could just summon back dead ones (before Weaver died, of course). I had a bit of extra positioning opportunity to summon because I was playing into Mei Feng and scrap was everywhere rather than just where I summoned/killed dolls, but the fact remains the same; I got to run schemes/strats with Bad Juju, First Mate, and Widow Weaver because their AP being spent to scheme run was more efficient than using the Stitched. 
I doubt that this will change anyone's minds though; if I say "it's too strong, just look at the cards", its dismissed as Theoryfaux, and if I say "I've played games where it's dumb", it's dismissed as anecdotal. There is no point I could make where defenders of the Stitched would be like "Yeah okay maybe they need a little nudge".

I actually found this story pretty persuasive. But with some caveats.

Getting scrap markers fed to you is niche, but also you can do it easily on corrupted idols (dolls kill themselves to push them) or with Zoraida (her doll kills itself).

But to me that also speaks to how absurdly powerful Widow Weaver is in a Zoraida crew.

Any 8 stone model that can move 18 inches in a turn AND summon a six stone model is going to be a bit nuts. That says more about the 8 stone model than the 6 stone model.

[LeperColony]

37 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Any 8 stone model that can move 18 inches in a turn AND summon a six stone model is going to be a bit nuts. That says more about the 8 stone model than the 6 stone model.

I think it says a lot about both.  The point of the WW in that crew was specifically to summon the Stitched.  He basically got all the Zoraida fun, then also because the Stitched's mechanic requires so little set up, he was able to get a ton of value from it for minimal investment.

Not that this is to say the Stitched are necessarily broken.  I personally don't have an opinion as I haven't seen it enough myself.  But it does sound pretty mean.

[Maniacal_cackle]

58 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I think it says a lot about both.  The point of the WW in that crew was specifically to summon the Stitched.  He basically got all the Zoraida fun, then also because the Stitched's mechanic requires so little set up, he was able to get a ton of value from it for minimal investment.

Not that this is to say the Stitched are necessarily broken.  I personally don't have an opinion as I haven't seen it enough myself.  But it does sound pretty mean.

Well, as an example...

Toshiro at 9(10) stones can spam out Ashigaru (5 stone minion) with corpse marker generation. He needs a 10+ to do it, and he basically can't move if he is doing it (5" per turn). But the summoning is super, super strong.

Widow weaver on the other hand is able to do a 6 stone minion, only needs a 9, and can easily move at least ~13 inches per turn. It is just next level how ridiculous that is. She was clearly balanced with an assumption of no easy scrap markers. She'd be ridiculous even if she could only summon aversions or gigants.

That said, other than summoning stitched, she isn't overpowered. So even if widow weaver is the problem, nerfing stitched could be a reasonable answer.

Oh, and Ashigaru come in with irreducible damage! The summoned stitched should take 2 irreducible damage at least.