Tools of the Trade: Von Schill Discussion

[Wyamphri]

I just think VS is competing against some very solid masters in faction, and he doesn't stand out. Levi, Viks, Tara, Parker...they seems very good in this scheme and strat pool. Needing a buff I think is a bit of a stretch but maybe a good tech pick or two in keyword could help

[Adran]

6 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

 

You can stop some tricks, like a surprise Chompy Bits, but you're playing some real crap Dreamer players if they can't get their summons out.

I certainly don't expect to stop a dreamer summoning and unburying. But the bubble is nearly 1/9 th of the table. ( 6" auras on a 40 mm model is a circle with a diameter of over 13"). The crew is good to high wp so getting those triggers to move is hard to guarantee ( especially since Hannah can make triggers harder to declare). You can be hiring out of keyword for lures, but that will be lowering your lucid dreaming. 

The dreamer player generally needs to use extra actions to summon, because most of the time they need to be in the right place to move the friecorps to somewhere they can summon. 

 

[Zebo]

I've played mainly Freikorps, and while fun and reliable, I've found them to lack something to really being capable to face the best crews out there. 

First, they are too card hungry with no card draw, that's a very serious problem. 

Then, there's models that are just enough for their cost, in a game with models with excellent performance for their cost. 

 

Freikorps are a crew with no strong style. They play to deny the opponent's game, and although they can counter some styles, and have tools for many situations, that's still not enough to make of them a real threat in the table for the opponents, if they know the game. 

Some upgrades from the Master need tweaks, some models need a little boost, and their resource exigence should be fixed somehow. 

[Ming]

Actually, there is a card draw engine with Librarians, Hannah and Engineers.

[Jesy Blue]

The Engineer is card neutral:  draw from the discard tyen discard a card for Tools For The Job, and discarded card then draw a card for Strengthen Armor.

Librarian has an unreliable positive draw:  trigger on Ancient Words draws a card, but with no stones it's either luck or taking a point of iDamage for the suit.

Hannah has no inherent card draw ability, but the capability to copy the Engineer's card neutral action?

 

I'm not seeing it....

[Zebo]

Maybe he's referring to Arcane Reservoir. 

And as said, Engineer can cycle cards, but it's a double edged weapon, because it can force you to not activate when there's a low card in the discard pile, or to not use their bonus action because A - you're out of cards and you can't or B - you only have one valuable severe in hand. 

Or C - you discard your last card to take the action and then fails. 

And let me laugh a bit about Librarian's draw engine. 

[Barmution]

Haven't been able to play a lot of games lately for obvious reasons but I've been toying with the idea of bringing in a Dead Outlaw and a Guilty into Freikorps for some card draw. At 13 SS they are a sizeable chunk of your crew but there's a couple of synergies here that can make it worth it:

• The upgrade on the Guilty to make the DO trigger his draw is cost free, at least SS wise
• Any tome you get on the DO's attack can drop an enemy scheme marker, triggering card draw from any model(s) with Wanted Criminal
• With the enemy scheme marker there the DO can trigger an action on the Guilty using At Gunpoint with a bonus of +1 damage on any given action (pretty good with Rocket Launcher)
• DO itself is a pretty decent model for putting a Rocket Launcher on due to Run 'n Gun and Covetous Cravings is great for giving Hannah or Arik Fast
• If you're hiring a prospector on anyone you have a semi-reliable source of enemy scheme markers to turn into more SS or card draw/cycle

This obviously doesn't mitigate the lack of card draw within the keyword but I'm going to try it out next time I play VS.

[Adran]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 10:47 AM, Zebo said:

Maybe he's referring to Arcane Reservoir. 

And as said, Engineer can cycle cards, but it's a double edged weapon, because it can force you to not activate when there's a low card in the discard pile, or to not use their bonus action because A - you're out of cards and you can't or B - you only have one valuable severe in hand. 

Or C - you discard your last card to take the action and then fails. 

And let me laugh a bit about Librarian's draw engine. 

That's really focusing on the downsides.

Tools of the trade will always cycle a card, its just you might activate it at a time when the best card to get rid of is the one you just picked up from the discard pile. It feels annoying when that is the case (Unless that's the card that has the suit you want) but if its the best time to activate the engineer, then you should just accept it really.

Your reasons for not cycling on the bonus action can be read as  one of the following A - you played badly, B- you started with a really good hand in the first place or C- your opponent is playing a hand attacking crew and either they played it  well (or were lucky) or you played badly.

You can laugh at the Librarian if you want. It has the capability to draw 2 cards in a turn. The crew is probably one of the crews that is most likely to contain healing in it, so paying wounds is less of a drawback for them than for most. (its still a drawback, but half the crew have some form of healing related thing.

 

But then I have always seen the crew as one that you know you'll have to make choices on. You can't fund all your discard powers, you have to choose carefully which ones are the ones you want to power each turn. I always viewed it as part of the reason they have so many good discard powers is because you can't use them all, and so they are naturally down powered over the "what is possible".

[Zebo]

Maybe I play them badly, but with sobre many self-discarding and so few draw in the crew, it's not have been so uncommon in my games to start activations with imperative models engaged/in danger, and spend resources to keep alive models or to nullify dangers, only to realize then that I haven't cards to cheat Strengthen Armor or that the discard tax takes from me too high cards. 

I'm not saying Engineers are bad, but absolutely not a good source of cards. 

 

In the other hand, since it seems that Freikorps have not any strong tactic/style that can worry your opponent, it's their job to adapt to the enemy's weaknesses, but feels like they lack some tools to be capable of facing any crew. 

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Maybe I play them badly, but with sobre many self-discarding and so few draw in the crew, it's not have been so uncommon in my games to start activations with imperative models engaged/in danger, and spend resources to keep alive models or to nullify dangers, only to realize then that I haven't cards to cheat Strengthen Armor or that the discard tax takes from me too high cards. 

I'm not saying Engineers are bad, but absolutely not a good source of cards. 

 

In the other hand, since it seems that Freikorps have not any strong tactic/style that can worry your opponent, it's their job to adapt to the enemy's weaknesses, but feels like they lack some tools to be capable of facing any crew. 

This sounds like you saying you don't plan your turns. It might just be the way you phrased it, but you know your hand at the beginning of the turn. You know what discard effects and what simple duels you are likely to want to take and can decide on their importance. You probably have an idea of what attacks you want to do during the turn. Things will change as the turn goes on, but getting half way through the turn and then realising you don't have the cards to discard/cheat for some effects is a sign of a lack of planning. (That's not to say it can't be effective).

I wouldn't call Engineers a good source of cards, but they are a source of good cards. You won't end up with a larger hand, but you ought to end up with a better hand.

Friekorps don't particularly have a strength, but they also don't really have a weakness. They are a generalist crew who need to change their plan based on their opponents. Friekoprs do have a relatively decent set of card draw options (I'd put it in the top half of the faction), but they do have lots of options to discard cards so I don't think its as noticed as other keywords.

its worth noting that I count Arcane reservoir as a form of card draw, one which is better than most other card draw out there due to the increase in hand size, so access to that on a tough body is already fairly solid card draw in a crew

 

[Zebo]

Well, the fact is that I don't play alone, and my opponent use to drain my hand maybe with discarding effects, or maybe by attacking my models and forcing me to discard. 

Because if my opponent hits me with a 12 amd I flip a 3, there's a lot of chances that my models takes a huge blow, so I'm forced to cheat at least to out the damage flip on negatives. 

Or if I won a duel and my opponent cheats a bit higher, maybe I want to cheat higher that him to make him miss. 

And there's A LOT of card requirements in Freikorps. 

From 8 (only assimilate) to a few 7s, and a bunch of 6s and 5s

And of course, crows for Give'Em Hell, Masks for Quick Reflexes and Pull, Rams for Critical Strike and Puncture... 

Don't counting the discard effects. 

 

Yes, I may have a plan for my cards when start the turn, but I need so many specific ones to make the activations go fine, that it's not realistic to expect all of them go to the things I want. 

Unless your opponent is playing badly. 

 

And Outcast have indeed weak points, specially hand management. A crew that makes you discard cards is gonna mess your game. And Freikorps has no tools to fix that. 

[Adran]

I'm not saying you will have things all go according to plan, but that you get the choice of is that card best used to get in that extra hit, or to discard for your effect. 

A lot of the time I play with a variety of crews,  I end the turn with 2 or 3 low cards in my hand that had no use in the turn. That's unlikely to happen when I play freikorps because they can turn those cards into either useful effects or better cards. 

You are right, because of that they are hurt more by low amounts of card discard, but probably less by high amounts, because they have that 7th card, and can get more. You might not like taking damage to get the surge trigger, but its an option to get extra cards. And 2 of the outcast upgrades can give extra cards in the right circumstances. You might not like or use the options, but there are some options. 

[touchdown]

Von Schil and the Freikorps being generalists seem to really turn some people off. They look at it and say what are they doing that's 10/10 good and the answer is nothing but they do everything 7/10 good.

[RisingPhoenix]

Here's the funny thing, there's some excellent generalist masters.  Von Schtook, ironically enough (the true VS) is a fantastic generalist.  Sandeep Desai has a superb generalist crew.  McCabe, Dreamer, all masters you can play into any pool pretty competently.

Von Schill's models are basically fine.  They're worth their stones, about.  But they're more generalists in the sense they don't do anything really spectacular.  It's like a full crew of 4/10 to 7/10 models.  A lot of the specialist 10/10 models are basically Von Schill models that are pushed in a particular area.

[Zebo]

That's the point. 

Freikorps can't do everything at 7/10. They can be 7/10 in their best scenarios, and at most 5/10 in their worst. 

Leveticus is a generalist and can do everything better than VS. Equal with Sandeep, Von Schtook and other good generalist. 

[psychogeek]

Dreamer isn’t an issue I think, but you have to play better. It’s a matchup that is definitely more skill reliant, again showing how this crew needs to be piloted with precision. Dreamers summons can be problematic sure, but you need to pick and choose you schemes specifically with those mechanics in mind. Imo picking scheme marker schemes is a mistake and if that’s the pool, then you should probably pick someone else.

[psychogeek]

On 5/8/2020 at 3:17 PM, Zebo said:

That's the point. 

Freikorps can't do everything at 7/10. They can be 7/10 in their best scenarios, and at most 5/10 in their worst. 

Leveticus is a generalist and can do everything better than VS. Equal with Sandeep, Von Schtook and other good generalist. 

Unfortunately, Leveticus is again overtuned this edition, but this time largely the fault of his crew being as good as they are without the downsides.

 

The Freikorps crew is a high skill level that can adapt to most any situation, but they don’t usually excel at any above other masters other than just not dying. 
 

I disagree with 7/10 being their max but to do better you have to just be a good player at the game in the end to get higher. This is a crew that rewards high level play much better than others imo

[touchdown]

I think any strategy + scheme pool, Freikorps is a good option (7/10 wasn't scientifically deduced just trying to represent this). That doesn't mean all their models are good. Just that they have the tools for any scenario. However, for each scenario there's a good number of crews that are 8,9,10 out of 10

[psychogeek]

18 hours ago, touchdown said:

I think any strategy + scheme pool, Freikorps is a good option (7/10 wasn't scientifically deduced just trying to represent this). That doesn't mean all their models are good. Just that they have the tools for any scenario. However, for each scenario there's a good number of crews that are 8,9,10 out of 10

Fair enough. Yeah I will agree with this. The crew can function in MOST pools fine and do quite well but others can definitely shine brighter and with more flair. 
 

I think part of playing the crew is also seeing the reaction of the opponent. My locals groan when I bring out VS because he make their lives so hard with his adaptability. I need to get some more reps in the update the strats and schemes part for gg1

[trikk]

On 5/8/2020 at 10:17 PM, Zebo said:

Equal with Sandeep, Von Schtook and other good generalist. 

I think the way it should be is that Sandeep and Schtook should be downgraded instead of Freikorps being upgraded. I think if Kandara lost that stupid card draw Sandeep would be probably a lot lower in the tier rankings

[katadder]

Wow interesting few pages.

Schill for me is the hardest one to choose anyone else over. He has tools for every job and can do them better than alot of our other masters whilst countering the enemy.

I kind of hate how everyone in certain metas thinks levi is overtuned because even as he is now I have a hard time choosing him in to anything, eapecially when I have schill. 

If schill were to be buffed I would solo him (as it is i almost do anyway, just not symbols so much).

 

[trikk]

I played another game with VS!

VS (4SS)
Trunk
Stalker + Soldier for Hire
Freikorpsmann
Lazarus
Hannah
Engineer
Scout

I took Lazarus because I played vs Sandeep + Rasputina) and I wanted to disrupt his shenanigans. The more I play with VS the more I think Hannah, Lazarus and Arik aren't that necessary. I mean if Hannah wouldn't have Arcane Reservoir I'd probably skip her (although Siphon Power + Rocket Launcher combo is sweet). I played Symbols + Sabotage + LYM, so Stalker + Shield/Boots Freikorpsmann did most of the heavy lifting. but maybe my expectations are too big towards them (My issue with Arik is that he doesn't offer anything early except walk + focus)

[touchdown]

Hannah is incredible for me when combo'd with an Engineer. If you set it up right, that's 2 focused 4/6/8 attacks on turns 2 and 3, and with an assault shield, extremely tanky.

I haven't got Lazarus on the table but every time I look at his card I'm underwhelmed.

Likewise haven't got Arik in but a 3/5/7 damage track is really good, gravity well is really good against certain crews, and Hannah being able to copy charge up for a min 5 damage seems brutal

[trikk]

1 hour ago, touchdown said:

Hannah is incredible for me when combo'd with an Engineer. If you set it up right, that's 2 focused 4/6/8 attacks on turns 2 and 3, and with an assault shield, extremely tanky.

I haven't got Lazarus on the table but every time I look at his card I'm underwhelmed.

Likewise haven't got Arik in but a 3/5/7 damage track is really good, gravity well is really good against certain crews, and Hannah being able to copy charge up for a min 5 damage seems brutal

Arik isn't bad but he's a tanky damage dealer with no utility and I like 10SS models to have some utility. 

How do you do the 4/6/8 dmg attacks? 

Lazarus is good versus bubble crews. If you have to have 3-4 tests twice you either have a no hand or he does really decent damage. I also take him versus crews with a lot of stealth.

[touchdown]

6 minutes ago, trikk said:

Arik isn't bad but he's a tanky damage dealer with no utility and I like 10SS models to have some utility. 

How do you do the 4/6/8 dmg attacks? 

Lazarus is good versus bubble crews. If you have to have 3-4 tests twice you either have a no hand or he does really decent damage. I also take him versus crews with a lot of stealth.

You Siphon Power for 1 ram and then stone or cheat a ram for a 2nd one and get +2 from crit strike (I suppose you could stone + cheat too but in general Hannah's wounds are more plentiful than stones or cards).