Talking through Hamelin

[daniel sprayberry]

One thing I would love to see is a forward deployed unit. I had an Idea for it. A 5-6 stone unit called The Blighted Opossum. It would have the same rule as the bushwackers for forward deployment but it would also have the ability Playing Possum. Playing Possum would end the units activation but would give it stealth and serene continence or something to that effect, maybe just negative flips to ranged attacks. it would have 5/6 health and be a minion 3 but not have the vermin keyword unless playtesting found it to not unbalance plague. it would have a bite attack and a hiss that would push the enemy 3 inches away from the unit with a range of 6 inches. The point of this unit would be to deny an area to help Hamelin with board control. The opponent would have to dedicate units to dealing with the Opossum while the Hamelin player would have the choice of endangering the Opossum to enemy fire or getting something done. Giving the Opossum the Blight aura makes the Melee option again reversible as they gain blight. Anyway just a thought.    

[Phinn]

@daniel sprayberry, you can now call me... The Herald od the Blighted Opossum!

More Plague models would be definitely awesome

It could maybe have a Tactical Action to hurt itself and leave behind a Young Blighted Opossum marker that would basicaly function as Diseased Ability in the form of a removable marker.

[daniel sprayberry]

8 minutes ago, Phinn said:

It could maybe have a Tactical Action to hurt itself and leave behind a Young Blighted Opossum marker that would basicaly function as Diseased Ability in the form of a removable marker.

I really wanted to call the hiss ability AAAAAAAAAA lol. Hamelin is my favorite master but the Plague keyword does need some support. It's the lack of non-vermin movement options and conditional summoning. Basically Plague almost requires Versatiles to be functional. I'm new to the game but from what I understand Hamelin use to run rampant. The game is about board control now as far as I can see and the need to stay in a bubble and drop markers makes it difficult to come back if one isn't able to establish the ratto factory at a certain distance from enemy stuff. Of course I may be playing him wrong but I feel like a unit like I described could make him easier for new players to pick up and generally more competitive.  

[Jesy Blue]

You can make a very aggressive alpha strikey crew that works well as long as you're not going against another aggressive alpha strikey crew.  Doing it that way, Rats become incidental and you go hard with the plague tokens mechanic.

But yeah, no new Plague things since Winged.... and I miss my Plague Pits still.  As the new Outcast Starter box will be all Syndicate, no new Plague things coming up soon either.

[daniel sprayberry]

34 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

You can make a very aggressive alpha strikey crew that works well as long as you're not going against another aggressive alpha strikey crew.  Doing it that way, Rats become incidental and you go hard with the plague tokens mechanic.

Yeah I've tried that route. Doesn't seem to work out if I'm honest. Yeah you start deleting units turn 2/3 but the crew is so slow one tends to get bogged down and beaten in VPs. It could very much be my meta though. My last couple of games were against Dashel .Pandora, and Sandeep. Maybe it's down to my play style, I am partial to the rattos. Although I have had some mixed success with the winged. Against heavy melee crews they do some work. A good fix for them would be a non-conditional 3" end phase push towards a non-blighted model. Its generally Nix/Hamelin that stacks the blight. The possum isn't meant for an alpha strike. it's meant to be a sort of cancer the opponent has to pick when to cut out. If left alone they will score points but spreading their crew out means Hamelin can more efficiently focus a model or two to death. In my head the possum model didn't really have any offensive options (much like in real life) its plan was to be there, be able to drop markers, and "scare" enemy models away from a position making the ranged option the better option. This in turn creates a game of when to allow the possum to "activate" and not play dead. Just an idea I had this morning thought I would share and get feedback on.   

[Azahul]

What sort of Versatiles are people running with Hamelin? I've been playing him a lot, but usually the only Versatiles I bring are a pair of Prospectors and a Malifaux Child (cheap models with ways to generate extra scheme markers occasionally that can just sit in the back of the board and generate value through Interact actions for Benny). I've rarely found the need to look outside Plague for models capable of getting around the board quickly, a couple of Rat Kings in a central position can be flung out to near any corner of the board in my experience.

 

I would love to see some more models for Plague, and some improvements to the Winged Plagues that would actually make me want to use them. Making Festering Wounds a bonus action and removing the Enemy Only clause springs to mind as something I would consider.

[Zebo]

I use to bring one prospector for cards and stones, the Effigy for its healing, and the child to copy what needed, plus it's a child¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jesy Blue]

I will occasionally bring the Emmisary or The Midnight Stalker... not very often though.

2 hours ago, Zebo said:

I use to bring one prospector for cards and stones, the Effigy for its healing, and the child to copy what needed, plus it's a child¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Man do I miss being able to hire The Lost.... children galore.  I miss The Lost as a concept!  I used to hire so many children I painted The Hanging Tree with clowns for the kids party I was throwing.

[Saduhem]

Barbaros for the extra lures and whacking your own guys forward with auto "Shove Aside". The Stat 7 challenge is pretty amazing too.

[Phinn]

What Actions of Plague models do you, people, copy with Malifaux Child?

Pustulent Tumors, Festering Wounds, Rat Snack aaand... that is all. Or am I missing something?

[Azahul]

The most important action is the Interact action to fuel Benny with markers for rat summoning. But he can also copy Appraise in a pinch.

[Zebo]

2 hours ago, Phinn said:

What Actions of Plague models do you, people, copy with Malifaux Child?

Pustulent Tumors, Festering Wounds, Rat Snack aaand... that is all. Or am I missing something?

Usually, Appraise. 

If healing is needed, Plenty of Wares. 

Pustulent Tumors. Only if needed. 

[Azahul]

So there's a lot of talk in this thread about Benny not being worthwhile that dates back to before the errata. Have these attitudes shifted in the months since? I only started playing Hamelin after the changes and Benny has felt like an incredible asset in my games, I'm not sure I can imagine playing Hamelin without him. I've even run him in Parker quite a bit to reasonable success. 

[ShinChan]

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

So there's a lot of talk in this thread about Benny not being worthwhile that dates back to before the errata. Have these attitudes shifted in the months since? I only started playing Hamelin after the changes and Benny has felt like an incredible asset in my games, I'm not sure I can imagine playing Hamelin without him. I've even run him in Parker quite a bit to reasonable success. 

I've only played him twice, but both times he managed to summon at least 6-7 rats with some first/second turn help. 4 of those rats became a Cat Princess with a bunch of focus and (once even with slow). Not that they actually did much after that, but they forced my opponent to deal with them. 

I don't see him mandatory, but he's definitely a decent add, specially when you can spend 1-2 turns doing a good setup for him.

With Parker I can't see him, the crew is already pretty "scheme marker hungry".

[Azahul]

32 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

With Parker I can't see him, the crew is already pretty "scheme marker hungry".

The trick with Parker is that my crews usually only have Mad Dog and maybe a Minion that actually want scheme markers for Life of Crime, so it's not too hard to keep Benny fuelled. The Emissary is typically an auto-include for Parker to begin with, and I'll typically get ~2 free Interact actions out of Draw Their Attention (which isn't Bandit-only, so my Versatile/OOK models can be taking those actions to fuel Benny). Free Interacts plus the Emissary's A Weary Road will usually mean I can get the 4+ scheme markers needed to allow Benny to generate a Rat King per round without overly imposing on the rest of the crew's action economy. And that's just early game, before Parker/Mad Dog start killing enemy models and the board starts getting littered with random unnecessary scheme markers from Fistful of Scrip.

[Zebo]

But what would you do with rats in a Bandits crew? 

[Azahul]

Well, Rat Kings hit pretty hard, can run off and scheme/counter scheme as needed, and if the opponent tries to kill them and leaves them on low health then you can waste a lot of those AP by summoning a Rat Catcher instead. Regardless of how they die, both Rat Kings and Rats can become quite a lot of card draw. I've run Benny in lists with a Wanted Criminal Parker and a Bayou Smuggler in the past, so that when a Rat/Rat King dies it can become a draw two, discard one, by placing an enemy scheme marker, and then draw again when I remove that scheme marker. The Rat Kings are not as strong as they are in Hamelin, where they're typically loaded on Focus and have Fast and an extra bit of movement and actions from Unclean Influence, but given that Parker isn't having to dedicate many actions to fuelling Benny I tend to feel like they're worth what I paid for them.

[Thatguy]

On 9/29/2020 at 3:48 AM, daniel sprayberry said:

One thing I would love to see is a forward deployed unit. I had an Idea for it. A 5-6 stone unit called The Blighted Opossum. It would have the same rule as the bushwackers for forward deployment but it would also have the ability Playing Possum. Playing Possum would end the units activation but would give it stealth and serene continence or something to that effect, maybe just negative flips to ranged attacks. it would have 5/6 health and be a minion 3 but not have the vermin keyword unless playtesting found it to not unbalance plague. it would have a bite attack and a hiss that would push the enemy 3 inches away from the unit with a range of 6 inches. The point of this unit would be to deny an area to help Hamelin with board control. The opponent would have to dedicate units to dealing with the Opossum while the Hamelin player would have the choice of endangering the Opossum to enemy fire or getting something done. Giving the Opossum the Blight aura makes the Melee option again reversible as they gain blight. Anyway just a thought.    

I like this idea. I think it would make a cool swampfiend/vermin minion.

[daniel sprayberry]

On 10/8/2020 at 11:36 PM, Thatguy said:

I like this idea. I think it would make a cool swampfiend/vermin minion.

Our local play group is unoffically testing the concept. Below are what we came up with:

Blighted Joey                                                                       4 stone

Minion (6) Plague

DF-4                       WP-4                      MV-4                                     SZ-1

 

Insignificant

Diseased- 3” gain a blight token

Playing Possum- At the start of this models activation, this model may end it’s activation. If it does so until the end phase all enemy attack attacks outside of 2” receive a – to attack and damage flips.

Mindless

Where’s Mama?- If Big Mama Poss is not taken in crewlist this model deploys as the bushwhacker’s From the Shadow ability. If Big Mama Poss is included in crew list This model must be deployed in base contact with Big Mama Poss.

AAAAAAAAA-        6”        4          WP      -

Target moves it’s movement away from this model

Mask Trigger- 57 Teeth- Target gains Distracted +1

Tactical Action

Opposable Thumbs-             -           5          -           14

Once per turn-This model places a friendly scheme marker as if dropped by the Interact action (I.E. following all requirements as Interaction)

Health- 3

 

Big Mama Poss             7 Stone

Enforcer- Plague

DF-5    WP-5   MV-6   Sz-3

Diseased- 3” Blight

Playing Possum- Same as Joey

Scavenger- At the end of this models activation it may remove a corpse maker within 2” and heal 2

Mother of the Passel- This model may never target friendly Joeys with an attack action.

Attack Action

Big Bite-          1”        5          DF       -

Target Suffers 2/3/4 and gains a blight token

Mask Trigger- 57 Teeth-Target gains injured +1

Big Scream-     Aura 6”            5          WP       13

All enemy units in range take a TN 12 WP test or move their movement away from this model

Mask Trigger- Wide Mouth- Increase TN of WP test by +2

Tactical Action

Hitchen’ A Ride-         2”        6          -           12

This model may target any friendly Blighted Joey within range- As Ride with Me

Pouch Full Of Joeys -  pulse 4”           6          -           14

Once per turn-Target all scheme makers in range and remove them. For every 2 scheme markers removed in this way Summon 1 Blighted Joey in base contact with this model with the New Born upgrade attached. (New born upgrade says if this model would place a scheme marker instead it draws a card then discards a card. When this model dies controlling player draws a card)

Bonus- Maternal Call-              5”       6          -           12

Any number of friendly Blighed Joeys within range may be placed in base contact with this model.

Mask Trigger- Mother’s Milk- Remove 1 condition from each Joey moved. If a Condition is removed the Joey may Heal 1   

Health-7

 

[Azahul]

Ok, so we've got a new Gaining Grounds and some new summoning rules, which rather hurt Hamelin on a few fronts. Traditionally I'd use Fast Rat Kings flung to the winds with Unclean Influence to do things like claim Symbols of Authority or enemy table half Turf War markers, but those options are now off the table.

 

After a few games I've found myself hiring the Emissary in almost every pool, and the Midnight Stalker in most. The newly squishy and easy to kill Stalker can be a dicey prospect to be sure, but Work of Art is neat as it can guarantee a two Rat King summon on the first turn and he gives you a model capable of acting outside of the Hamelin bubble. He's supplanted Nix in most of my crews, and I like that in Break the Line he's able to Interact three times on a single marker in an activation and get the marker the full 8" from the centreline in one go.

 

The Emissary has been a bit of a weird choice. I've never felt like Hamelin's keyword cares much for healing, the models are either nigh unkillable on their own (Hamelin and Nix), or die as soon as something gets a bead on them (basically everything else). So rather than a healer, his value has been in his movement buff, access to Don't Mind Me on a front line piece (usually Hamelin), and giving Benny an extra scheme marker to work with each round. This usually pays off around about Turn 3-4, which is generally when I have Benny swap from rat summoning to scheming. Without the Emissary, Benny is capable of walking 10" and taking an Interact action, which lets you make some decent long range plays on Turf War or Break the Line. On Corrupted Leylines he can go 15" with the Lodestone for a similar play. With the Emissary these distances explode. His "walk twice and Interact" becomes 15", assuming you use A Weary Road on him and make sure he's within 3" of the Emissary at the start of his activation, which means he can actually be a reasonable threat to opposing strategy markers even on Symbols of Authority. On Leylines he can bolt a cool 21" across the table, allowing for some pretty incredible runs. Weird as it is to not be bringing the Emissary for his healing, he's been paying dividends now that I can't rely on spawning in Rat Kings in the midfield and flinging them all over the table to get my scheming done. The Don't Mind Me has also come up repeatedly with Turf War and Break the Line requiring frequent Interact actions around central brawls.

 

I don't know if this has just been my meta so far, but I've been finding a lot of fast crews like to make aggressive plays on Break the Line and get 2-3 of the Markers over the centreline on the first turn, then spend the game bogging down slower bubbles like Hamelin to prevent them from recovering the situation. Hamelin has his own response, by hiring in Rat Kings and actually not killing them Turn 1 to kick the summoning engine into overdrive, but instead making them Fast with Stolen and using Unclean Influence to get them out of the deployment zone pronto. It's a bit of a calculated risk though, they just die so quickly and most opponents know that their scheming power drops dramatically once they have to be summoned so it's definitely a tricky risk-benefit analysis. Especially since I usually only have points to hire one Rat King if I'm bringing the Emissary.

 

Of course, it's a hard time not just taking Tara into every pool in this Gaining Grounds, but I get sad if I don't get play Hamelin at least twice as often as all my other Masters put together so I've been trying to make him work.

[andorman]

Hodgepodge is such an apt name for what that model does.  He brings like 7 different unique and powerful things to the table, even if the healing is the most obvious one.  When you can start getting value out of all those other parts of his kit he really does start to shine as a model.  Interesting to hear how you're adapting to new Hamlin meta, will have to try putting him on the table again soon.

[Azahul]

Weird place for this I know, but I tried out Big Jake for the first time post-errata yesterday in a Hamelin crew. It was a Turf War game, and for 6 stones he felt like he was great value. Decent speed and Don't Mind Me let him get to a marker, and then his Demise meant getting killed didn't flip that marker back to neutral. Solid, efficient stuff.

None of that is different from how he works with other masters of course. The Hamelin specific stuff is that his unbury comes off any friendly model, which with Hamelin and his rats allows for quite the number of options. Not hard to end up with random rats floating around in odd corners of the board. Plays great on Turf War again, because you can run rats into quadrants to serve as unbury nodes for Jake and you won't be giving your opponent targets to kill to flip the marker back to neutral. Your force them to kill Jake himself for that to work.

[Jesy Blue]

Gotta admit, a 3rd Don't Mind Me model is kind of cool (4th with Emmisary trinket)... might be interesting to look into.

[Burnin4tor]

On 8/1/2021 at 6:49 PM, Azahul said:

Weird place for this I know, but I tried out Big Jake for the first time post-errata yesterday in a Hamelin crew. It was a Turf War game, and for 6 stones he felt like he was great value. Decent speed and Don't Mind Me let him get to a marker, and then his Demise meant getting killed didn't flip that marker back to neutral. Solid, efficient stuff.

None of that is different from how he works with other masters of course. The Hamelin specific stuff is that his unbury comes off any friendly model, which with Hamelin and his rats allows for quite the number of options. Not hard to end up with random rats floating around in odd corners of the board. Plays great on Turf War again, because you can run rats into quadrants to serve as unbury nodes for Jake and you won't be giving your opponent targets to kill to flip the marker back to neutral. Your force them to kill Jake himself for that to work.

Interesting idea I like it! Btw, how have you been finding Hamelin now the dust has settled on GG2 and summoning changes etc?

[Azahul]

2 hours ago, Burnin4tor said:

Interesting idea I like it! Btw, how have you been finding Hamelin now the dust has settled on GG2 and summoning changes etc?

He's workable. I don't think he can play Symbols of Authority anymore, which is a shame because he used to be somewhat ok at it. Now you end up crutching pretty hard on the Midnight Stalker and since he's all squishy now that's a pretty dicey gamble. Break the Line, Corrupted Leylines, and Turf War are all playable though. Break the Line you kind of want either Wedge or Standard deployment to have more control over where the markers go and to try and pressure them together.

 

I also find myself varying my lists a lot more with him in GG2 than I did previously, including OOK hires like Big Jake. Nix gets left on the cutting room floor a lot unfortunately, he's simply too slow to do much scoring, though I still bring him on Corrupted Leylines a lot where I can still use summoned Rat Kings to do the Strategy. Benny conversely has become absolutely critical, he's just the best Keyword model for scoring Strategy points thanks to the easy Fast and being a Soulstone user with Df 6 means he can actually survive a bit of attention. He usually spends the first two turns summoning to help out the brawl and then he runs off to net some points for the rest of the game.