Is there a difference between 'taking' an action and 'declaring' an action?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Is there a (known) difference between taking and declaring an action?

For example, extended reach says stuff within aura 2" cannot 'take' actions generated by the charge action. Does this only apply at the declare stage?

This could come up in situations like these:

Shenlong using charge into falling rave kick to go into an extended reach aura. He has already paid costs and 'declared' the action, but now is in a zone where he can't 'take' the action. Does it fail?

Or if anything charges another model and an Ashigaru uses 'take the hit' to move into extended reach range. Does that cancel an action?

My first instinct would be take and declare mean the same thing unless there is evidence otherwise?

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Step 3 (targeting) I assume you mean? Sorry, why can't he target anything legally? (Extended reach just prevents taking the action, and Take the Hit says it ignores targeting restrictions).

Also just to make sure, this is what everyone has in mind for Shenlong so we're on the same page:

• Shenlong isn't in extended reach range.
• Shenlong charges
• Still isn't in extended reach range.
• Extra attack off charge: falling rave kick
• As part of costs of falling rave kick, moves shenlong 6 inches.
• He is now in extended reach range, but is on step 3 of action timing.

So since he is halfway through falling rave kick, it can't be cancelled?

Oh sorry mis-understood the question. (and you're right I meant step 3) I thought you were talking about him moving somewhere with no target

No, extended reach won't stop the action once its started, because nothing in it says it sstops the action. It wouldn't allow you to take it, but once you start taking the action it is no longer going to apply.

 

[solkan]

 

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Shenlong using charge into falling rave kick to go into an extended reach aura. He has already paid costs and 'declared' the action, but now is in a zone where he can't 'take' the action. Does it fail?

Note that in this case, the same verb, take, is used in both sentences.

Extended Reach says that models cannot take Attack Actions generated by a Charge.  Shenlong declares a Charge.  

Charge says:

Quote

Once per Activation. Cannot be declared while engaged.

Push this model up to its Mv in inches. It may then take a Action that does not count against its Action limit.

By the 'Breaking the Rules' rules, the effect of the Charge action is reduced to

Quote

Push this model up to its Mv in inches.

because the model cannot take the action, and the contradiction is resolved as 'nothing happens'.

(Naturally, that's what the aura reduces the effect of the Charge action to assuming you're standing in the aura when you get to the end of the first sentence and the push has been completed.)

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For other cases, remember that the first step of resolving an Action is to declare it.  The various effects which state 'cannot declare' a specific action prevent a player from proceeding past that step of the action.  

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2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Or if anything charges another model and an Ashigaru uses 'take the hit' to move into extended reach range. Does that cancel an action?

Targeting is step three of resolving an action.  There's no time travel, and no time travel paradoxes.  It's too late for an effect to prevent taking the action, at step 3 of resolving the action.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@solkan, thanks , thought so!

Although I think you're misunderstanding the Shenlong example. For him, moving 6" is part of the cost of the melee ability. Thus when he declares it he is out of range.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Is there a (known) difference between taking and declaring an action?

For example, extended reach says stuff within aura 2" cannot 'take' actions generated by the charge action. Does this only apply at the declare stage?

This could come up in situations like these:

Shenlong using charge into falling rave kick to go into an extended reach aura. He has already paid costs and 'declared' the action, but now is in a zone where he can't 'take' the action. Does it fail?

Or if anything charges another model and an Ashigaru uses 'take the hit' to move into extended reach range. Does that cancel an action?

My first instinct would be take and declare mean the same thing unless there is evidence otherwise?

There is a strict difference between take and declare.

Taking an action is the whole process. The first step to take an action is to declare the action. (electronic page 23)

There are probably a few niche occasions where it matters if you can declare or take,. but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Shenlong is already taking the action. It fails because he can't target anything legally. (Step 4 of actions, again page 23)

Take the hit applies at the start of the action. Once you get past that start of the action it doesn't stop an action in progress, so if it jumps in the way of a charge attack it will still get hit by the charge attack.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, Adran said:

Shenlong is already taking the action. It fails because he can't target anything legally. (Step 4 of actions, again page 23)

Step 3 (targeting) I assume you mean? Sorry, why can't he target anything legally? (Extended reach just prevents taking the action, and Take the Hit says it ignores targeting restrictions).

Also just to make sure, this is what everyone has in mind for Shenlong so we're on the same page:

• Shenlong isn't in extended reach range.
• Shenlong charges
• Still isn't in extended reach range.
• Extra attack off charge: falling rave kick
• As part of costs of falling rave kick, moves shenlong 6 inches.
• He is now in extended reach range, but is on step 3 of action timing.

So since he is halfway through falling rave kick, it can't be cancelled?

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Step 3 (targeting) I assume you mean? Sorry, why can't he target anything legally? (Extended reach just prevents taking the action, and Take the Hit says it ignores targeting restrictions).

Also just to make sure, this is what everyone has in mind for Shenlong so we're on the same page:

• Shenlong isn't in extended reach range.
• Shenlong charges
• Still isn't in extended reach range.
• Extra attack off charge: falling rave kick
• As part of costs of falling rave kick, moves shenlong 6 inches.
• He is now in extended reach range, but is on step 3 of action timing.

So since he is halfway through falling rave kick, it can't be cancelled?

Nothing in the rules says a models action can't be stopped midway through. Extended reach says that models within the aura can't take attack actions generated by a charge. FRK in this instance is an action generated by a charge. Right now the burden is on finding a reasom that an action being taken is exempt from something saying it can't be taken.

[Maniacal_cackle]

So to make sure I understand positions... Solkan and Adran believe that Take the Hit + Extended Reach can't combo to stop an action that has already begun. Santaclaws believes the two abilities can interact to negate an attack?

[santaclaws01]

This is pretty much going to come down to how anyone interprets "take" here since it's not a game term.