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Regelridderen
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4 hours ago, Fixxer said:

Would this mean that Zoraida's obeys only suffer from concealment when targeting non Swampfiends when in concealing terrain? 

There was a debate on the rules forum about this a while back, about a similar topic. Basically some people argue that Zoraida still draws sight from herself for sight lines purposes (since her eyes only specify range and LOS. Not range, LOS, and sight lines). Which I think is utter nonsense. But be aware apparently people argued that LOS and sight lines are independent of each other.

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 7:17 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

There was a debate on the rules forum about this a while back, about a similar topic. Basically some people argue that Zoraida still draws sight from herself for sight lines purposes (since her eyes only specify range and LOS. Not range, LOS, and sight lines). Which I think is utter nonsense. But be aware apparently people argued that LOS and sight lines are independent of each other.

Just to clarify (as they way you have put it does sound stupid, but its not that stupid)

Sight lines are used to determine line of sight, (as well as other things like Cover and concealment) so they are related, but separate things.

The problem with this one is that the rules say if any sight lines cross concealing terrain then you would get concealment. Likewise any sight lines can be used to get cover.  (To get Line of sight you only need 1 sight line to not be blocked so drawing extra lines doesn't hinder it at all.)

The ability to draw extra sight lines doesn't automatically grant the ability to not draw some sight lines.

 

I expect this to be clarified that you can also use that model to calculate concealment and cover, but it could get strange if you're also using it to deny Stealth using a different model (assuming you can). (This model is within 6" so I can use it to ignore stealth, but this model allows me to draw sight lines that do not pass through concealing terrain and this model allows me to not pass though the terrain that you're in the shadow of would seem fairly strange, so I'd like the clarification to clarify that sort of thing as well, as you could make some horrible combination that allows you to bypass almost every defence, each one because of a separate model.  ).

But at the moment that's not what is written.

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1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

And all of this is ********, as you determine LOS using sight Lines between TWO models. Not three, not eight, but TWO. 

I agree.

That's what the core rules say.

Eyes in the night is a special rule that changes the core rules. I think it was intended that you "pretend" the eyes in the night model is Zoraida for calculating all the sight line related things but "rules as intended" is a very poor argument if you're not the person that actually wrote them.

 

 

EDIT - Sorry for derailing the thread, I ought to know better. I'm leaving this discussion as I'm just derailing more.

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Ah ok, so there were more things in that thread, I'd had to look it up to see the points made; but as an uneducated guess I'd say if a rule is ignored, every part of it is also ignored. So if LoS is ignored, what remains is the range which is just the distance between the 2 objects. Range hasn't any asociated rule to concealment or cover so these just doesn't apply (unless they are coming from a non-LoS source like an aura or an ability). To apply the sight lines I'd expect other kind of wording like saying it may target even if the light of sight is blocked.

Trying to treat the sight lines as something separate from LoS could lead to other players wondering why Channeled Healing (Shang) may be used in a buried model if the sight lines cannot be traced which would make that ability illegal in their opinion for example.

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4 hours ago, Adran said:

I expect this to be clarified that you can also use that model to calculate concealment and cover, but it could get strange if you're also using it to deny Stealth using a different model (assuming you can). (This model is within 6" so I can use it to ignore stealth, but this model allows me to draw sight lines that do not pass through concealing terrain and this model allows me to not pass though the terrain that you're in the shadow of would seem fairly strange, so I'd like the clarification to clarify that sort of thing as well, as you could make some horrible combination that allows you to bypass almost every defence, each one because of a separate model.  ).

About this bit: Stealth only forbids targeting if the model is more than 6'', it doesn't interact with LoS. An attack ignoring LoS but not range would still be affected by it imo. However using a model closer as a proxy would let Zoraida bypass Stealth as the range is being measured from that model.

I'm not sure if I get the other point... It would be something like using a Waldgeist with as a proxy for Zoraida and trying to use "Abundant Growth" to negate the concealment of an underbrush marker? Even if Zoraida is measuring range and LoS from it, she has to use her own abilities to determine what she can ignore. I undersand the "I see throught your eyes" theme that could lead to think that; but that's not what the wording say. The wording let her measure range from a different point (point that in this case is a model), but it doesn't allow to use the abilities of that point (model). If not Rasputina would be blind when trying to measure LoS and Range from ice pilars XD.

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Just noticed the wording on Inhuman Reflexes’ Butterfly Jump.

Looks like I overlooked, that the ability works on all enemy attacks not just :meleeactions, so if someone takes a shot, tries to Obey, anything, you’re free to close the gap 3”. Which does make it worth considering an extra time against ranged heavy crews, like Family or Outlaws.

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1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

Looks like I overlooked, that the ability works on all enemy attacks not just :meleeactions, so if someone takes a shot, tries to Obey, anything, you’re free to close the gap 3”. Which does make it worth considering an extra time against ranged heavy crews, like Family or Outlaws.

Just in case, it also works with Disengaging Attacks. A model with Butterfly Jump will disengage even getting Severe Damage (-6 Mv).

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5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Another thing I didn't exactly miss, but didn't register...

2 armour on Hinamatsu. I couldn't figure out why everyone was so convinced this model was good, as its attack output is the same as a rabble riser basically. But armour 2 is nuts if they don't have a counter.

She is awesome. I still find her to lose out against Teddy / Rider / Carver. As she has little to no direct synergy with my Nightmares and Woes. 

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1 minute ago, Regelridderen said:

She is awesome. I still find her to lose out against Teddy / Rider / Carver. As she has little to no direct synergy with my Nightmares and Woes. 

Yeah, I struggle to take non-synergy models. I just like synergy. I shudder to think of a Hinamatsu/Vasilisa team though! The puppet subtheme is strong.

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8 hours ago, Angelshard said:

Bandersnatch has a build in mask and it's a beast, Bandersnatch gets build in onslaught in a Marcus crew.

Hehe, I also noticed this one, everyone keeps saying blue marcus is better, but I really think he is a sleeper in NVB. I wrote a bit about synergies in purple marcus a while ago if someone is interested.

Talking about Beasts, Zoraida and the Grootslang. Obey a model engaged with the grootslang and force him to disengange, the Grootslang may use Wicked to perform a normal attack. Now the good part: as both models are being controled by Zoraida, Zoraida will control BOTH sides of the duel, so a low card may be cheated for the controled model for the easiest Moderate/Severe of your life. You can choose to push 0'' and then disgengage again (for another free shot) thanks to the ensorcer trigger. This can also be done with Hinamatsu but the other player will control the model in any attack from an onslaught attack.

4 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

She is awesome. I still find her to lose out against Teddy / Rider / Carver. As she has little to no direct synergy with my Nightmares and Woes.

She has less synergy than Teddy/Carver, but there is still some.

In Woe she brings a Lure which will bring things into the bubble and give Distracted in a pulse; which will trigger Pandora's Mysery and will make manipulative harder to hit even with Focused for non-ruthless models.

In Nightmare she will be crazy accurate thanks to a hot deck with her built-in:+flip, a Lure become long range Wp duel that may missposition an enemy and put a nightmare in his face which is also very synergistic and her bonus action is a area Wp duel that may be used to force a summon (and heal models thanks to feed on fear). Stitcheds are Puppets and constructs too; so if both Vasi and her are included, there will be 5 models handling staggered (more if a few dolls are summoned/hired)

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On 11/20/2019 at 5:53 AM, Regelridderen said:

She is awesome. I still find her to lose out against Teddy / Rider / Carver. As she has little to no direct synergy with my Nightmares and Woes. 

In Dreamer crews, she has a 12” WP attack (Lure) and a 3” :new-Pulse: tactical WP attack.

1. 20” threat range.

2. 17” threat range.

That is a very serious set of synergy for Dreamer......in the hands of a good player.*

 

* Could be me.....one day!

 

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@Ceodoc I never said, she was crap, the word I used was ‘awesome’. But its not as if she offers anything, I can’t get elsewhere. There’s already plenty of ranges WP attacks in Dreamer.

E.g. The Rider/Carver shore up some weaknesses by bringing Ruthless and blasts to the table. Rider/Teddy help with movement sheananigans. Carver/Teddy benefit from Bowmans support etc. 

Its not a clear cut choice. Each bring their own flavour of ultra-violence - I just prefer the others most of the time. 

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I do like Hinamatsu a lot but she won't fit everywhere; each model has its strenghts. Hinamatsu is "weak" versus Terrifying models or models with some "counterattack" or "reflect damage" mechanics as she tend to spam attacks; versus these a Ruthless model (Carver, Hoody) or a model with a better moderate/severe damage is the right call. And her Lure can be useful sometimes to reposition allied model but Ride with me is in another tier and Teddy's I've got your back is more situational but a bonus action. Plus she got 8 Wds for 9SS and no regen or Feed of Fear, so versus crews with a lot of chip damage, other options are better.

What she offers is: Take pressure out of the hand and can bypass the defenses of crews that handle a lot of :-flipto the duel with her 6:+flip. Armor+2 is hard to tackle for most models. She is fast (charge 8''), low damage but spammy attack with armor piercing trigger (good versus armored or non-terrifying H2W), Henchman (SS for triggers and damage reduction), plus some utility with Lure and Distracted.

Dreamer is very resource intensive, so her:+flipis a very big deal for him, Lure also outrange all Wp duels Nightmare has so it's also quite good and Wp duels in area are scarce in the keyword and are also great to force summons, especially in a model that has little fear to charge forward like her. Plus she can be much more independent than Teddy or Carver who need more the direct support of other models of the crew.

Each one has its playstile, but she is worth considering.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/18/2019 at 12:45 PM, Regelridderen said:

And all of this is ********, as you determine LOS using sight Lines between two models. Not three, not eight, but two

Agree.

Eyes in the Woods does not say "target" a Swampfiend within 12". Nor does it state this 12" is an aura nor pulse, so it doesn't need LoS as auras, pulses and targeting do.

As long as Zoraida and the Swampfiend are within 12" of each other, Z may draw LoS from that 'fiend, regardless of intervening models or scenery. Concealment therefore doesn't come into the allies conversation, it only potentially applies to the enemy model being targeted as it usually would.

This means Mama Z can Obey friendly Swampfiends within 12" WITHOUT needing los at all.  She uses Eyes in the Woods to draw LoS from a 'fiend to that same fiend.

Pretty mean Mama Z, pretty mean...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just had a nice game, where Serena scored me two points for Claim Jump, which made me realize, it’s actually a decent scheme for her. 

She can make her presence felt with her Tendrils and Twist up to 8” away. And her twist can even teleport opponents into position.

If needed, she can even walk, pop Painkillers for up to 6 health and return to her position. 

And of course she has that nifty Demise:Eternal. 

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