Competitive state of the faction

[Kharnage]

5 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

A height 3 defense 5 model with regen 2 has issues surviving between activations, and with no other defensive triggers, can get blown up fairly easily in a lot of matchups.

I.... don't have this problem? Nekima rarely drops below 8 health for me, and I'm considered the most aggressive player in my meta. It's actually a celebrated event here, when she dies by anyone's hand (happened twice so far in my M3e career, with 3 dozen-ish games now). My most common complaint from foes is that Butterfly Jump and Reach 2 is a gross, and even in bloody fights, Nekima lives where my Matures, who don't have BFJ because Hayreddin and Nekima do, die. With in keyword access to focus-pulsing from the Shamans, and even extra focus to boot from the Tome trigger on the Shaman's pustule, that Ml 7 3/5/6 track hits hard even on a moderate, which can save my severe cards for other purposes. Shove Aside is also the best tech anyone can really ask for into Protected or Take the Hit, since you don't lose the AP you wanted to use on your primary target, and if you can avoid being push-blocked, means that the bodyguard is no longer within range to take the next hit. 
My last point of contention is... what TT minions can tear us apart at range? Snipers and Samurai? A Mature, or even a Young's, range of fight-starting is easily 17 inches, and I haven't been impressed with how much damage a Samurai or a Katanaka Sniper can put down that kinda range. Cheating a good card (since hitting their defense with our melee isn't that hard) to match or dodge, since it'll take them 2 AP to actually shoot (either focus for sniper or walking/charging for Samurai) hasn't been too much of an ask, historically. 
Take this all with a grain of salt, as I am a fanboy of the God Empress and will defend her honor, but of the many things people have called my Nekima, squishy is not one of them. 

[Nagi21]

9 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I.... don't have this problem? Nekima rarely drops below 8 health for me, and I'm considered the most aggressive player in my meta. It's actually a celebrated event here, when she dies by anyone's hand (happened twice so far in my M3e career, with 3 dozen-ish games now). My most common complaint from foes is that Butterfly Jump and Reach 2 is a gross, and even in bloody fights, Nekima lives where my Matures, who don't have BFJ because Hayreddin and Nekima do, die. 

Do your opponents not take any ranged tech... at all?  Butterfly jump is nice yes, but any kind of ranged ability can hit her at Df 5.  You don't even need long ranges as she jumps on one model, then every other model can pile into her.  I... question your local meta.

Also... at 17 inches you're getting one attack with either of those nephilim, which I would love to see how that goes into a Katanaka gunline with let's say, two samurai.  You get an attack, which hits an 8 wd model w/ armor 2, and now you're going to be dealing with 2/3/5 with crit strike ignoring armor... or a disengage and 3 2/4/6 built in positive guns amongst the other things.

Nekima's squishy.  A lot of the crew isn't, but she's easy to hit and not difficult to kill.

[Kharnage]

42 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

I would love to see how that goes into a Katanaka gunline with let's say, two samurai.

Samurai walks to get into melee range because reach 2 saves lives, and takes one attack at best. If 8 stones for a single 2/3/5 attack (what is armor, anyway? Oh right, that stuff we banned Barbaros for wearing) is what we're being threatened with, I ain't sweatin' it. Where you at fam? Come on down to Austin, I would be happy to demonstrate! Granted, a part of the advantage Nephilim have is the 40-50% of the board being covered in terrain, but still, the fact remains, I've played into ranged crews aplenty (a Parker player also loathes my existence) and Fuhatsu is the only model I've run into a problem with, and that's because I foolishy ignored him in favor of fighting other stuff. 

[Gnomezilla]

@Nagi21 oh no, we know there’s a gap between his skill and that of the rest of our meta, that’s not in question. This is a meta that is hostile to ranged crews all around. Who will you fight against? The nephilim who close the distance on turn 1? McCabe or Misaki, and all of the upgraded ‘ride with me’, arriving in melee even sooner? Leveticus (and soon Zipp) upgrading with the Herald push and putting an annoying aura directly in your face? SONNIA (soon to come with clockwork traps)?!?

Also, we aren’t hitting Nekima because Hayreddin and that bloody ‘constant passive healing’ aura has to die before we can kill anything, as it heals more than the damage dealt, potentially, to a stone user—exceptions made for the 10T who could just bite you with a jorogumo and turn off healing.

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Kharnage said:

what is armor, anyway? Oh right, that stuff we banned Barbaros for wearing

Nephilim strategy guide in a nutshell:

3 hours ago, Daniel Walker said:

But I found one Pandora list with 13 models that can actually work

[Daniel Walker]

15 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

The base is looking just like that, I think it can be improved but I played it only 2 times. ( 12 models, not 13, mea culpa)

[Nagi21]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

The base is looking just like that, I think it can be improved but I played it only 2 times. ( 12 models, not 13, mea culpa)

... How does that work again?  

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Daniel Walker said:

The base is looking just like that, I think it can be improved but I played it only 2 times. ( 12 models, not 13, mea culpa)

Ty for the list! I knew it had to be something with Lyssas and Dolls, but I wasn't able to get that number of models; I tried to include Candy tho.

About the list. Why not a Cyclops there? Lyssas become tankier and get some healing near of these, it's another source of staggered and Cyclops are very solid models that may also punch with min 3 or help with schemes. Is it worth it going without Candy?

I guess you considered these but some extra ideas for variations of that list: Wrath go quite well with so many Lyssas bringing in models (especialy if you can fit also the Cyclops to minimice the damage from the free attacks and if you Lure 2 enemy models together to be able to redirect attacks with the Sins tokens). The efiggy is another Puppet and it's fairly tanky for 4SS, that's another source of Staggered and scrap if you may fit it. Hinamatsu is more expensive but it's another puppet, bring more conditions and Lures and Vasilisa healing will help her a lot. Vasilisa and dolls may force some discards, Kadde or Carver make take advantage of that with their execute trigger. The Emissary is another very interesting model for a crew around Lyssas, AoE staggered, attacking Mv and Hazardous terrain (Hazardous will deal 2 damage with Bring him, once in the movement and once in the attack).

3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

... How does that work again?

I guess @Daniel Walker will fill the details later, but this is a annoying ping damage list around staggered.

Vasilisa make every model engaged with a Puppet get Staggered during the start phase; that trigger ping damage from Lyssas' Mysery, when an staggered model activate near of a doll it gets pinged again (and Lyssas may lure models into range I supose) and guess what Sorrows do when a model activate? Yes, more ping damage. Just putting a doll near of a model and in range of a Lyssa and a Sorrow will make that model get 3 ping damage XDD. Extra points: Vasilisa and the dolls gets bonuses when attacking staggered models and Vasilissa may summon more dolls (or upgrade them to stitcheds) when they die. That ammount of models also give plenty of APs to interact and a lot of bodies for the Sorrows to jump. Iggy is just Iggy.

The only thing I'd need to check here is if once per activation effect like Misery may trigger outside an activation (during the start phase).

[Ogid]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:51 AM, Ogid said:

The only thing I'd need to check here is if once per activation effect like Misery may trigger outside an activation (during the start phase).

I checked this part; it's in a weird spot rules-wise right now.

 

[Bisounours]

 

On 11/13/2019 at 2:23 AM, karukame said:

For Zoraida lists you better ask Daniel Walker, he has some mindblowing techs with that Master (especially in tandem with collodi if It is allowed. :)). 

As for Dreamer - he is really strong as single  master as well.  Here is few of my rosters for him, of course you still need to adapt them to your opponent and schemes. Sometimes you just pick Pandora as second Master to hard counter your opponent. 

 

On 11/12/2019 at 4:35 PM, karukame said:

Dreamer is just great, thats right. Even as single master he has a lot of flexibility, and cause he is pretty much independent summoner you can easily add to your list additional Master to counter your opponent. 

So if you ask my opinion, in current state of Russian meta, if there will be single master rules, then the top tier will be like Dreamer, Zoraida, Collodi and maybe Euripidus. Good thing that we are not limited to this,and my Dreamer almost always has Nekima or Pandora at his side. 

These double master lists seem very interesting to me, especially bringing in Pandora to a dreamer crew. What schemes/strategies or opponents are you countering with Nekima and Pandora? Nekima seems pretty self sufficient without being a Nephilim leader but Pandora seems to miss out on quite a bit not being leader/with woes.

[karukame]

12 hours ago, Bisounours said:

 

 

These double master lists seem very interesting to me, especially bringing in Pandora to a dreamer crew. What schemes/strategies or opponents are you countering with Nekima and Pandora? Nekima seems pretty self sufficient without being a Nephilim leader but Pandora seems to miss out on quite a bit not being leader/with woes.

Pandora hardcounters some keywords and masters by herself - Mercenary, Pig, Tri-chi, McMourning and his stuff, Firebug, M&Su, Guard, Reva, Nephilim hy denying their Base mechanic or reapping them like a corn cause their poor WP.  And this is the one that comes to my mind first, there are a lot of others keywords that have same feeling. And its essential for Dreamer to get stable WP duels. 

Its good for all strategies. And if we are talking bout schemes - i almost always pick the ones that almost does not require additional APs from my model or schemes that I can open early and setup end condition after the main action is over (claim, Outflank, assasinate, Vendetta,  power ritual, prisoner and search the ruines are my favorites). 

Dreamer assures that with great summon value we will have enough models to setup end condition, so its no big deal to start with high cost models. Btw mono Dreamer is really cool too but he suffers a lot if game dont last all 5 round cause he get his reall power only on turn 3 or even 4.

[Bisounours]

3 hours ago, karukame said:

Pandora hardcounters some keywords and masters by herself - Mercenary, Pig, Tri-chi, McMourning and his stuff, Firebug, M&Su, Guard, Reva, Nephilim hy denying their Base mechanic or reapping them like a corn cause their poor WP.  And this is the one that comes to my mind first, there are a lot of others keywords that have same feeling. And its essential for Dreamer to get stable WP duels. 

Its good for all strategies. And if we are talking bout schemes - i almost always pick the ones that almost does not require additional APs from my model or schemes that I can open early and setup end condition after the main action is over (claim, Outflank, assasinate, Vendetta,  power ritual, prisoner and search the ruines are my favorites). 

Dreamer assures that with great summon value we will have enough models to setup end condition, so its no big deal to start with high cost models. Btw mono Dreamer is really cool too but he suffers a lot if game dont last all 5 round cause he get his reall power only on turn 3 or even 4.

So in general, is she just getting sent up the middle of the board and trying to hand out as much stunned as possible? Do you have any issues with her getting focused and taken out quickly? If they can make it through her terrifying she doesn't have seem to have much within the crew to help keep her alive.

[Bullfrog]

54 minutes ago, Bisounours said:

So in general, is she just getting sent up the middle of the board and trying to hand out as much stunned as possible? Do you have any issues with her getting focused and taken out quickly? If they can make it through her terrifying she doesn't have seem to have much within the crew to help keep her alive.

I have found her to be tanky enough to last the games. The crew does not have much healing or support but Serena Bowman (versatile) has a healing bonus action (bottle of painkillers). 

A good defense mechanic (besides her terrifying 13) is her DF/WP mask trigger that gives the attacking model stunned (after resolving does not matter if they succeed). Once you have a model within 6" that gains stunned (from the trigger for example) than misery triggers and you can push that model 2" in any direction, even out of combat with Pandora. Generally, I often use her Despairs Influence with her as the target anyways to give her automatic mask on her duels for the mask triggers on her other abilities which means usually the mask is also already built into her DF/WP stat for the turn. 

 

It is a quick way to shut down a charge from a 1" melee model or even some 2" melee models if they are not already base to base with you. 

[Mut]

Giving Pandora a mask with Despairs Influence is a really good way to ensure she stays out of trouble. Pandora, more than most NB masters, is hugely dependent on really good positioning. I like to also have Iggy near her for an additional Misery proc when he inevitably gives something Burning.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I find her actions too precious to use Despair's Influence on herself. I just use mood swings and keeping her slightly behind the action by a few inches, so the enemies have to go past my primary beaters to damage her.

EDIT: though I suppose if you have no other Woe models to care for and she is being moved around with Fly With Me, she might be a bit more flexible?

[Bisounours]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I find her actions too precious to use Despair's Influence on herself. I just use mood swings and keeping her slightly behind the action by a few inches, so the enemies have to go past my primary beaters to damage her.

EDIT: though I suppose if you have no other Woe models to care for and she is being moved around with Fly With Me, she might be a bit more flexible?

No mood swings when she’s not the leader unfortunately. Big bummer cause I could see it being a good counter to some masters/crews that want that specific activation order.

[Nagi21]

The odd thing is I've found that Candy is enough of a mini-Dora that she fills all the same slots in other crews while being nearly half as much cost.  I dunno that I'd want Pandora specifically in many matchups.

[Regelridderen]

4 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

The odd thing is I've found that Candy is enough of a mini-Dora that she fills all the same slots in other crews while being nearly half as much cost.  I dunno that I'd want Pandora specifically in many matchups.

I'm with you. Pandora is more about supporting her crew, while Candy is full-on disrupting the enemy crew.

I mainly use Dora for Despairs Influence and Mood Swings aside from their shared abilities. DI is useless outside of Woe and MS despite being an amazing ability, really shines more in a crew reliant on Manipulative and controlling the order of things to pile on and remove conditions.

[Nagi21]

2 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

I'm with you. Pandora is more about supporting her crew, while Candy is full-on disrupting the enemy crew.

I mainly use Dora for Despairs Influence and Mood Swings aside from their shared abilities. DI is useless outside of Woe and MS despite being an amazing ability, really shines more in a crew reliant on Manipulative and controlling the order of things to pile on and remove conditions.

See I use Dora for Mood Swings and Box Opens, I've never gotten too much use out of Despair (although I bring a changling for it so... eh).  Just walk up to the enemy and proceed to make them COWER IN FEAR FOR THEIR MISERABLE LIVES AS THE END SWEEPS UPON THEM!  Without her leading Mood is dead, and box is good but not game changing in a crew that doesn't have the misery to support it.  Other than that, Candy does Self Loathing just as well (except for the occasional slow which doesn't matter with her).

[Regelridderen]

5 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I've never gotten too much use out of Despair (although I bring a changling for it so... eh). 

Despair is amazing for guaranteed suits, the push is just a nice bonus. E.g. My last game involved chucking a low Crow at Carver allowing him to push in range for Breath of Fire, kill off a false witness with her scheme markers Up in Flames, then turn around and charge a Stone and hand-depleted Lucius with a guaranteed Execute - the second part failed because of Serene Countenance, but still... And Candy loves a guaranteed Mask for just about anything but walking.

I’ve yet to field a changeling. I always spend those 5 Stones on a Sorrow/Aversion instead.

[Nagi21]

13 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

I’ve yet to field a changeling. I always spend those 5 Stones on a Sorrow/Aversion instead.

I always have the sorrow/aversion get sniped unless I keep it way back, which isn't so useful for them, but very useful for the changeling.

[Regelridderen]

3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I always have the sorrow/aversion get sniped unless I keep it way back, which isn't so useful for them, but very useful for the changeling.

I find the sorrows to be excellent damage sinks. It takes a few hits to take them out due to incorporeal, and their Life Leech quickly bring them back to full health. 

I rarely bring up directly in the face of the enemy. Rather have them linger about, scheme, and support the crew via Glimpse of Insanity and Misery. The only thing they engage singlehandedly is 5-6 stone minions.

[Ezuma]

19 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

I find the sorrows to be excellent damage sinks. It takes a few hits to take them out due to incorporeal, and their Life Leech quickly bring them back to full health. 

I rarely bring up directly in the face of the enemy. Rather have them linger about, scheme, and support the crew via Glimpse of Insanity and Misery. The only thing they engage singlehandedly is 5-6 stone minions.

Interesting, trying to get my head around Pandora lately and I was struggling to really visualize how to properly use the Sorrows. Good to hear they're not useless, but I wonder how the three ghosts (sorrows/lyssas/aversions) rank up or if there is any consensus there?

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Ezuma said:

Interesting, trying to get my head around Pandora lately and I was struggling to really visualize how to properly use the Sorrows. Good to hear they're not useless, but I wonder how the three ghosts (sorrows/lyssas/aversions) rank up or if there is any consensus there?

I'm still getting the hang of her myself, but my hope for them is...

Pandora is very much a zone control master (there is a portion of the board where if anything comes to it, her crew will just destroy whatever is there). The sorrows then have a section of the table they can act freely on (either by supporting with auras + stun, or scheming, or whatever). If the opponent comes into that zone to kill the sorrows, something scarier will stomp the enemy for it.

As for ranking up sorrows/lyssas/aversions... I've no idea, I've not tried the unreleased models yet, but my first impulse is that they all fill such different roles it would be hard to rank them directly against each other.

[Regelridderen]

Lyssa are very situational. Mostly anti-tech vs Rasputina or Euripides, as they rely on Ice Pillars. 

Sorrows are really nice, you miss them, when you don’t have them, even if they don’t do much, when they’re there. Their effect is subtle a few points of damage here and there, handing out Stunned, giving a small push to trigger Kade’s Pounce or herd opponents into Pandora.

Aversions. Since getting your models in the right position is key to winning Malifaux, Aversions will indubitably end up being one of the most hated models in the game. Their Antipathy amounts to  handing out Terrifying 13 vs charges in a bubble, and then some. While allowing you to reposition your models and pushing your opponent around. 

Aside from creating a bubble of death, Pandora wins by controlling her opponents positioning and activation making her very frustrating to play against

On the other hand she doesn’t like mobile opponents with lots of guns. The Family is a horror to face. Lots of WP6 combined with Focus and Pushes and 12” range. It neuters so many of her abilities.