UK Nationals Resser round-up!

[Granty1982]

So this past weekend was the annual UK nationals, the largest Malifaux event in the world. Fantastic event run by the hardcore henchman himself, Mr David Brown. 2 days and 7 games with players from many different countries. 

I decided after having several debates on here and FB to run fixed Seamus for the event (dressed up as him as well) and test what I've been preaching. After 6 games, I was in 2nd place but unfortunately bounced off of Shen, dropping me to 10th place overall but still best in faction. The following will be around up of the models I took and hopefully generate some healthy debate based around practice rather than theory.

 

Seamus...

Oh.. My.. God.. Absolutly fantastic master able to function in pretty much any game as either a high output beater or scheme runner. I had a high opinion of him before the event and am even more impressed! Hardest game for him was vs Misaki, played by Steve Johnson. Misaki was able to hunt him down and make his movement harder and his crew was geared to take his hits (Fuhatsu, samurai, ototo, lone swordsman and fox with multiple arses thing).

 

Copycat.. 

Did what he needed to do. I think in 7 games he attacked 3 times. Mostly he was walking to where Seamus 2anted to be and using his bonus or dragging Seamus out of the cack!

 

Gravedigger..

Great minion with reasonable cost. Pulsing focus turn one for the crew then acting as a support healer, scheme runner or sitting in my deployment digging a corpse and dropping a scheme for a very easy 2nd point on dig graves.

 

Carrion Emissary..

Works really well with Seamus. Enables the turn 1 2x focus shots from him by using his markers to spawn a zombie and place blocking just past the half way line. Beyond that he offers board control with his coffins and has a great dmg track. He generally attracted a lot of hate and I dont think he survived a game but with 6 df and wp plus h2k hes absorbed a lot of my opponent AP and distracted from what I was doing with other models.

 

Archie..

Do I need to say anything? Hes the absolute nuts! Beating or scheming he can get where he needs to go and get the job done! Well worth 10ss although can be a bit squishy if over committed or poorly placed.

 

Toshiro..

Another totally solid model for the crew. Hands out focus like candy, great dmg track and can summon one of the most frustrating minions ressers have to offer!

 

Ashigaru..

Squishy archie and Seamus..? No problem! This guy will stand there and take the hits as well as preventing you opponent charging! H2k plus a 2" range with a bonus action to heal 1 and get off of his h2k! Can really ruin an opponents day with essentially a throw away summon.

 

Bete..

Used her a couple of times and she did what she needed to do which was generally scheming and being a pain in the ass for my opponent. She is not a beater by any stretch of the imagination and requires some finesse but if used right can score points easily on a hemes such as claim jump and vendetta by simply achieving the first point then burying. Also great for putting pressure on summoners!

 

Asura Rotten..

Used twice with the goal of scoring power ritual using the zombies she summons to drop schemes. Not overly effective beyond that but gives an opponent something to think about. VERY stone hungry!

 

Vincent..

Playing against a summoner? Take Vincent! Watch your opponents glee of summoning a big scary gibly thing turn to despair when you toss a stone for a crow and delete it with ease! Ignores friendly fire and can shoot 3 times! 

 

Mortimer..

Fairly good beater with h2k and chatty. Produces corpses for Seamus or toshiro to use with a really nice movement trick. Situationally very good.

 

As you can see, other than Bete I took NONE of the redchaple keyword in any games. In my opinion they offer nothing special unfortunately and I'd love to see Wyrd work on them some more. Why would you take sybelle when archie costs the same and is better? The belles and doxys are ok but very limited in what they can do and Seamus functions just fine without them. It would be nice to see some small changes to them made to make them worth taking in games as I'd love to be playing a thematic crew, but at tournament level it simply dosnt work.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That’s pretty much been the consensus I’ve heard. I don’t think anyone complained about Seamus himself being a bad model this edition. It’s all down to his keyword not really functioning very well with him, or together.

I‘ve gotten so many games with him since the final closed and that tally’s with my opinion. I personally don’t like Mortimer or Gravediggers, but my opinions pretty much tally with the rest of yours.
 

As an addendum to your opinions above let me recommend a Nurse. I especially like bringing a Nurse if the emissary is along as sometimes it’s hard for Seamus to get back to her to get the focus, and the emissary I find often has trouble getting in 2 shots a turn since I normally have to move once. He loves the focus for blasts, and her heal with the enissary’s H2K, plus her ability to use bedside manner to protect him I find is very useful. Not to mention all the shenanigans you can pull with Tools for the Job.

[ShinChan]

22 minutes ago, Granty1982 said:

As you can see, other than Bete I took NONE of the redchaple keyword in any games. In my opinion they offer nothing special unfortunately and I'd love to see Wyrd work on them some more. Why would you take sybelle when archie costs the same and is better? The belles and doxys are ok but very limited in what they can do and Seamus functions just fine without them. It would be nice to see some small changes to them made to make them worth taking in games as I'd love to be playing a thematic crew, but at tournament level it simply dosnt work.

Congrat for your result, it's really, really good!

Just wanted to point out that Sybelle (as it has been discussed here a couple of times) it's in a really good spot. Quite tanky, 2" range and minimum damage can easily be bumped to 5. I strongly recommend you to give her a chance  I think that her main problem is that she has some very situational abilities, but a good pick. A different role than Archie, but a model that can easily score by herself Claim Jump.

Archie is more a missile model, and quite fragile against models with ruthless. He's really good, but as I said, a different role than Sybelle.

[Granty1982]

Yes I've used Sybelle a fair bit and would love to use her more as I've got the alt model which is one of my favourite sculpts. As you say she can be amazing but I find on average Archie achieves more for the same cost. I dont think I killed many things with Archie all weekend and used him mainly as a big scary scheme runner or anti scheme runner as Seamus did the heavy lifting in the crew.

I'll have a look at nurses as in all fairness I've totally overlooked them to date. I'm not sure if I've even read their card Haha!

[Paddywhack]

7 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Congrat for your result, it's really, really good!

Just wanted to point out that Sybelle (as it has been discussed here a couple of times) it's in a really good spot. Quite tanky, 2" range and minimum damage can easily be bumped to 5. I strongly recommend you to give her a chance  I think that her main problem is that she has some very situational abilities, but a good pick. A different role than Archie, but a model that can easily score by herself Claim Jump.

Archie is more a missile model, and quite fragile against models with ruthless. He's really good, but as I said, a different role than Sybelle.

I don't hate her as much as some others do, but she is a stone or two to pricey for what she does. As the OP says, Archie fills a similar role for the same cost and more reliable output. I do like her Beckoning Call way better than Lure (wish the Belles had it too). I wish she had a trigger built in to her Bleeder Lash (maim?). Or if Undivided Attention just worked regardless of engaged maybe? 

Love the alt model, but she's a hard sell at 10SS. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I want to love Sybelle and I used her in the first 60+ games I had with Seamus to see if there was some magic I was missing, but I cannot fathom how anyone could think she’s in a good spot. She’s utter trash comparatively. Honestly I think she’s one of the worst models in faction, by a large margin.

She only has 2 AP with a very bad set of bonus actions. Her ability to give out extra actions to minions is very situational and more importantly *requires* bunching up *and* extra additional investment in minions that aren’t very good, so the required costs don’t come close to the payout received. I mean she isn’t anywhere close to as useful as other 10ss models out of or even in keyword.

I mean I’d struggle to fit her in if she cost 7 and had 9 wounds. The ONLY thing she brings to the table is min 3, but you can have that and extra actions, and or more utility for the same cost out of keyword. I mean compare her to Mr. Graves and Mr. Graves easily comes out on top. Comparable stats and defenses, better bonus action, better movement ability, better attack and dmg, and he isn’t really anything to write home about and is rarely taken in most Lynch crews I see and he’s 2 stones cheaper.

If you want to compare in faction Archie outshines her by so much it’s not even close to a comparison for the same cost. I mean Kentauroi outclass her by a large amount for dmg and utility, and they are a stone cheaper even out of keyword.

I mean she fit the original parameters of high cost models for 3E, but changes to what 10 stone models can get away with on other models, plus the late changes to conditions, especially injured, really took a toll on her design. And to be clear I think the condition change was necessary, but there is a large difference between needing to go first and be close to an enemy, and having that enemy have to activate Within 6”, and all you get for all that set up is -1 to their stats, for their activation, instead of being able to bonus action out injured 1 which hit their stats on attack and defense for the whole round, which if memory serves is what that used to do before the injured changes.

I really, really, REALLY want to like her. I hate not including her in crews, but I’d argue she’s vastly worse than she was last edition, and costs more, and she was pretty bad last edition.

[Granty1982]

So what we all like to see done with Sybelle and the keyword to make it useable in competitive play?

With the belles rather than giving Seamus positives on just to hit but dmg too would make me want to take all keyword models although may be too strong.

Sybelle I'm not sure. Some kind of card draw would be nice as that's what I feel is missing personally.

[Gloomy]

I think Scarlet Temptation should be a 2" aura again. Not sure why they made it smaller, especially as Sybelle's  range is 2" That would make the belles more useful too

Sybelle as she stands should probably cost 8 stones although I'd be happier if she stayed at 10 but got a rework to fill a more significant role. As was said above there are much better options in Ressers for the same cost. I'd rather she fill a completely different role than a (sort of) beater/ (sort of) tank

When they replaced Projected Voice with beckoning call it was definitely a step up but I would have much rather seen her get something either like an obey or make her be able to summon belles. Both options would fit her thematically and would make her a unique model worth the 10stones. In comparison Vasilisa has similar abilities, she can summon Stitched and has an obey for friendly minions and only costs 8 stones and is versitile

This may be too much but if the Belles had By Your Side they could keep up with Seamus and make more use of a 1" Scarlet temptation and fill the role of scheme runners. You would have to increase they cost to 6  (or maybe higher) but it would put them on par with Undergrads as great keyword minions and would definitely see competitive play

[Fetid Strumpet]

By your side for red chapel is too good. That’s why it got changed to keyword only because late beta Seamus was abusing Crooligans.

[Gloomy]

5 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

By your side for red chapel is too good. That’s why it got changed to keyword only because late beta Seamus was abusing Crooligans

Yeah your right, although maybe Sybelle could have something like her 2e call belle ability. I was sad she lost that

[ShinChan]

15 minutes ago, Wintergloom said:

I think Scarlet Temptation should be a 2" aura again. Not sure why they made it smaller, especially as Sybelle's  range is 2" That would make the belles more useful too

Sybelle as she stands should probably cost 8 stones although I'd be happier if she stayed at 10 but got a rework to fill a more significant role. As was said above there are much better options in Ressers for the same cost. I'd rather she fill a completely different role than a (sort of) beater/ (sort of) tank

When they replaced Projected Voice with beckoning call it was definitely a step up but I would have much rather seen her get something either like an obey or make her be able to summon belles. Both options would fit her thematically and would make her a unique model worth the 10stones. In comparison Vasilisa has similar abilities, she can summon Stitched and has an obey for friendly minions and only costs 8 stones and is versitile

This may be too much but if the Belles had By Your Side they could keep up with Seamus and make more use of a 1" Scarlet temptation and fill the role of scheme runners. You would have to increase they cost to 6  (or maybe higher) but it would put them on par with Undergrads as great keyword minions and would definitely see competitive play

Vasilisa doesn't have 2" melee attack that can easily go to mininum 5 damage. Sybelle also has 5 wounds more and can attack with a .

Regarding Scarlet Temptation, I totally agree that 1" doesn't make sense and Bump in the Night is too situational, which I think is the main problem with the keyword. I do like Undivided Attention, is like bumping her Df and Wp to 6, while having Terrifying and HtW makes her extremely tanky.

I've seen her "get delivered" by the Rider, getting in melee a couple of models, followed by the Seamus activation and shooting with that  .

It's a different role than Archie, he is more "versatile" thanks to his high mobility, but he's also quite glass cannon, specially if the enemy has any form of ruthless.

[unti]

I would have loved for sybelle to get a shockwave action where she uses other redchapels as the marker to force a wp duel for a damage or distracted or something... But to late I guess...

[Gloomy]

8 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Vasilisa doesn't have 2" melee attack that can easily go to mininum 5 damage. Sybelle also has 5 wounds more and can attack with a

Oh yeah I agree that would all be too much with a summon and obey as well, what I meant is I'd be happy to lose some of her tanky/beater stuff for her to fill more of a Vasilisa style role

[Fetid Strumpet]

My fix for Sybelle, and for red chapel generally:

Scarlet temptation range = to largest melee range on the model.

Bump in the night changed to: when an opposed duel involving a model within 6” aura occurs, Red Chapel models may add a mask to their final duel total.

Personal attention changed to: Enemy models within 6” aura gain injured 1 and subtract 1 from their duel totals during their activation.

Rotten Belles gain a bonus action: 

Until the end of the turn, all red chapel models involved in an opposed duel with a model engaged by this model may add a ram to their final duel totals.

[TomResser]

On 11/11/2019 at 5:50 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

That’s pretty much been the consensus I’ve heard. I don’t think anyone complained about Seamus himself being a bad model this edition. It’s all down to his keyword not really functioning very well with him, or together.

I‘ve...

 

Thank you for your great report and information about your tournament

How did you play your first round in a match? 3 of your choosen models needs corps marker ( Gravedigger, Toshiro and seamus), but you get only 2 (Gravedigger and emisarry) in the first round, if you use the ritual of Gravedigger to get focus for all.

 

[SteampunkCake]

44 minutes ago, TomResser said:

Thank you for your great report and information about your tournament

How did you play your first round in a match? 3 of your choosen models needs corps marker ( Gravedigger, Toshiro and seamus), but you get only 2 (Gravedigger and emisarry) in the first round, if you use the ritual of Gravedigger to get focus for all.

 

Seamus doesn't need a corpse marker on turn 1. And if he does, he goes and makes his own.
Grant managed to flip RJ for damage with Seamus' Flintlock against me 3 out of 5 turns in our game. Killed Archie, Molly and the Dead Rider. 

[Granty1982]

My crew varies a bit from game to game so the initial setup is a little different but as a basic idea let's assume I'm using the following;

Seamus(whisper)

Copycat

Emissary

Toshiro

Gravedigger

Archie

Mortimer

Crew will for up around GD with archie and copycat on a wing. First activation grave digger will pulse out focus. If I have the tome, give a second focus to toshiro and move or drop a scheme if dig graves is in pool. Mortimer will then RIP out a corpse and start moving to position I want to hold. Toshiro activates and summons an ashigaru, pushes it 3 and gives it focus and gives Seamus his second focus. Carrion emissary moves to a place where is can drop 2 marker on centre line, replacing one with a MZ in opponents half. Seamus then teleport in and murders something with 2 focused shots then ports away or if I'm brave charges into melee. If I charged copycat gets him out of dodge. If I didnt copycat moves into a position I want seamus later in game. Really depends on terrain. Archie then moves to wherever I need pressure, anti scheming or scheming himself.

Activation order can change slightly but that's pretty much it.

Matt's comment above is true and highlights why whisper on Seamus can ruin an opponent. Pay close attention to what's been flipped as well as with stoning you will have seen 8 cards in your hand. 

After a turn one blitz like above the opponents Angus clenches and you just need to mop up the models he tries to position. A great example of that is vs dreamer I was able to kill both the bandersnatch and chompy in turn one using Seamus and Vincent (opponent flipped black so huge luck involved)

It can be shut down very well too. Steve Johnston took misaki who Seamus hates more than shen as well as loads of ruthless, high armour, h2k models giving Seamus no real targets. Fortunately he is a shit hot scheme runner which is what he became in that game.

[Granty1982]

2 hours ago, SteampunkCake said:

Seamus doesn't need a corpse marker on turn 1. And if he does, he goes and makes his own.
Grant managed to flip RJ for damage with Seamus' Flintlock against me 3 out of 5 turns in our game. Killed Archie, Molly and the Dead Rider. 

Molly was assumed dead anyway Haha! Serves you right for hiding 2 scary beaters behind night terrors! Was so bloody happy you didnt play Kirai in that pool too as would have struggled

[TomResser]

2 hours ago, Granty1982 said:

My crew varies a bit from game to game so the initial setup is a little different but as a basic idea let's assume I'm using the following;

Seamus(whisper)

Copycat

Emissary

Toshiro

Gravedigger

Archie

Mortimer

Crew will for up around GD with archie and copycat on a wing. First activation grave digger will pulse out focus. If I have the tome, give a second focus to toshiro and move or drop a scheme if dig graves is in pool. Mortimer will then RIP out a corpse and start moving to position I want to hold. Toshiro activates and summons an ashigaru, pushes it 3 and gives it focus and gives Seamus his second focus. Carrion emissary moves to a place where is can drop 2 marker on centre line, replacing one with a MZ in opponents half. Seamus then teleport in and murders something with 2 focused shots then ports away or if I'm brave charges into melee. If I charged copycat gets him out of dodge. If I didnt copycat moves into a position I want seamus later in game. Really depends on terrain. Archie then moves to wherever I need pressure, anti scheming or scheming himself.

Activation order can change slightly but that's pretty much it.

Matt's comment above is true and highlights why whisper on Seamus can ruin an opponent. Pay close attention to what's been flipped as well as with stoning you will have seen 8 cards in your hand. 

After a turn one blitz like above the opponents Angus clenches and you just need to mop up the models he tries to position. A great example of that is vs dreamer I was able to kill both the bandersnatch and chompy in turn one using Seamus and Vincent (opponent flipped black so huge luck involved)

It can be shut down very well too. Steve Johnston took misaki who Seamus hates more than shen as well as loads of ruthless, high armour, h2k models giving Seamus no real targets. Fortunately he is a shit hot scheme runner which is what he became in that game.

Thanks for your replay. That means you prefer to have enogh Modells to generate all the needed corpse marker. 

In the games you played with Bete, you changed her against Toshiro?

 

Seamus(whisper)

Copycat

Emissary

Bete

Gravedigger

Archie

Mortimer

 

 

[Granty1982]

Mortimer, bete, toshiro, manos, Vincent and asura are the interchangeable models

[Granty1982]

It really depends on the strats, schemes and opponent. I'm currently toying with the idea of dropping the gravedigger for a doxy but need to test it. 

Toshiro is there for when I know I'm going to be on the receiving end of some hurt and having played Matt quite a bit I knew he would be bringing the ruder and archie with the intent of hammering Seamus. I got very lucky and for the second game in a row I believe he flipped a black joker on defence.

Seamus in my opinion and many would argue that it's not worth much Haha is that people that have played Seamus are often falling into the trap people did with the m2e viks slingshot. They spend so much time focused on Seamus that they loose sight of all the other toys on the table. Reice, a club mate of mine and UK best bayou player is really tough to play against and his advice to people is generally to just ignore seamus and accept he will kill a model a turn. Focus on scoring points and playing your game.

[TomResser]

9 hours ago, Granty1982 said:

It really depends on the strats, schemes and opponent. I'm currently toying with the idea of dropping the gravedigger for a doxy but need to test it. 

 

Hello,

dead doxi is a very tough Modell (h2W, disguised, end focus and gives distracted) and has a great ground control!

But if you switch Gravedigger against doxi you will lose the blasphemos ritual and a source of corpse marker.

To compensate this you could give Archie the Grave Spirirts Touch for the ritual. But a source for corpse marker is still missing. Maybe you could also try to play dead dandy?

[farmoar]

Because the corpse generation keeps getting brought up, is it ever worth it to spend the 2ss to just start with a Mindless Zombie to pulse out focus? It seems to me that after the first couple of activations on turn 1, you will be getting diminishing returns on Blasphemous Ritual (too spread out to catch most of the crew).

[Sagrit]

I'm not sold on the idea of hiring Mindless Zombie just to give Focus+1 turn one. Even if it's Focus+1 for several models (which is nice but not really necessary to be honest)

Pros:

• No need of corpse generation like Mourner, Gravedigger, Dead Dandy, could save some SS not hiring those models
• Extra activation
• Can deliver corpse marker 8" away from Deployment zone (no idea why you'll need it)

Cons:

• Still need a Blasphemous Ritual, probably GST on some model (not an cons actually, great upgrade)
• You probably will give opponent pass token turn one
• It literally means you buy only Focus+1 for 2ss (which is a cost of Upgrade for some other model)

My thoughts - if you really need a corpse Turn One, just hire Dead Dandy, it's a great model for only 4ss, it will help you deny opponent's schemes, it will help you with Redchapel Killer ability.

[TomResser]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:37 PM, Granty1982 said:

It really depends on the strats, schemes and opponent. I'm currently toying with the idea of dropping the gravedigger for a doxy but need to test it. 

Hello Granty,

what is the result of your tests.

In my opinion it should be a good trade. I'm thinking about to give the dead doxy a Grave Spirirts Touch. That makes her nearly undestructable, has the focus ritual and it is for the oppnent a big challange ^^

But it needs anything more to  generate more corpse marker, maybe a dead dandy! In this case is your soul cache very low....

I want to test today this idea's!