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TT's dominance in UK's Tournament


Cursed25

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I've heard TT did very well in the UK Tournament and I was wondering if people who were there or even played it could give us some info about their games? what went well? match up they got? what worked and didn't? etc! :) 

 

lots of small infos to help every TT players!

 

ps: Also I fear whe could get nerf a lot if we continue to dominate like this (everybody already know TT is a strong faction) What do you think will get nerf? my bet for now is on Shenlong and chi mechanic but we have a lot of other really strong crew and I also fear for them 😕 

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1 hour ago, Granty1982 said:

Imo having played against shen then only issue is the 6" push and irreducible dmg. Other than that hes fine.

I also think the wandering style action is way too strong for an action with no TN that can affect your model, opponent models and makes it really hard to do any scheme that relies on dropping scheme markers. While also being a pain to crew that likes corpse and scrap markers!

 

All other abilities that move models don't come close to that kind of utility and have a TN around 12

 

The only other thing I think is too strong his the chi mechanic! Chi is often making you cheat after opponent and makes it almost impossible to beat! A lot of times I used Shenlong my opponent couldn't defend against me at all! Even a cheated Red Joker couldn't beat some of the Duels!

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1 hour ago, Cursed25 said:

The only other thing I think is too strong his the chi mechanic! Chi is often making you cheat after opponent and makes it almost impossible to beat! A lot of times I used Shenlong my opponent couldn't defend against me at all! Even a cheated Red Joker couldn't beat some of the Duels!

Am I wrong in thinking this is primarily a Shenlong issue rather than a Monk issue? Apparently the 1st place Shenlong player hired almost entirely out of keyword. If Chi is nerfed rather than Shenlong without those other Monks getting a look at then the rest of the keyword might become really bad.

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56 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Am I wrong in thinking this is primarily a Shenlong issue rather than a Monk issue? Apparently the 1st place Shenlong player hired almost entirely out of keyword. If Chi is nerfed rather than Shenlong without those other Monks getting a look at then the rest of the keyword might become really bad.

yeah! I feel Monks in general are more of a support crew for Shenlong! he is the dragon's chosen after all! ;)

 

wandering river are awesome but mostly do schemes and LRM are very good healer! Also Charm Warder are nice counterpick vs certain crew! Apart from those 3, I don't think the rest of the keyword is worth it. The problem with Chi is mainly on Shenlong being able to do what he wants and having stat 7-8 on most duels is really strong. Maybe put a cap on the nnumber of chi a model could have? this won't nerf the rest of the keyword and will turn down Shenlong because he will have to gain more chi spread out during the game instead of hoarding a lot of it turn 1 and be done with chi generation after?

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17 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Am I the only one focusing on his Fermented River Style, and the crazy damage potential he has? Combined with the “free” 6-inch push through models, and the follow-up hit.

Nope, that is a pretty big part of it. His damage track wouldn't be very impressive if he could actually ever have a negative flip for damage. He also effectively gains focused on his blast shoot attack if you are in concealment and cover. Models with built in negatives to enemy attacks or hard to wound aren't all that happy either. 

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4 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

The only other thing I think is too strong his the chi mechanic! Chi is often making you cheat after opponent and makes it almost impossible to beat! A lot of times I used Shenlong my opponent couldn't defend against me at all! Even a cheated Red Joker couldn't beat some of the Duels!

The Chi modifies who cheat first? I thought for cheating only the cards plus stat counts.

According with the Rulebook Duel step (A-F, pg 10) the modifiers to the duel are applied in the step D (even if Chi must be declared in step B) and cheat fate happens in step C.

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I suspect that the secret culprit in making TT perform so well is actually Minako Rei.  Many crews can provide the scrap/shadows required to get the Katashiros out, and then you are creating models with no limit, which can scheme, do damage, and have no summon vulnerabilities (as no upgrade is attached),  All from a 8 SS versatile henchman who can usually pull their weight even without summoning anything.

My kneejerk response is that ALL summon effects should be attaching upgrades, not just the summoning masters.  This at least allows hypothetical counterplay.  But maybe Minako should just attach the Given Flesh upgrade to the Katashiro?  Then you can't double-dip summons with Asami, the Katashiro have a time limit of existence, and anti-summoning actually works.  Obviously Minako's summon would have to be slightly re-worded to allow Given Flesh to consume shadow markers to discard the starting flicker.

Shenlong is clearly very, very, very good.  Probably too good.  But he wasn't the only TT master in the top 5.

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11 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Nope, that is a pretty big part of it. His damage track wouldn't be very impressive if he could actually ever have a negative flip for damage. He also effectively gains focused on his blast shoot attack if you are in concealment and cover. Models with built in negatives to enemy attacks or hard to wound aren't all that happy either. 

But he appears to be drowning in plus-flips now, and this seems to be a part of the problem - No?

I was under the impression that Shenlongs intended strenghts was his flexible playstyle and abillity to adapt, as the situation changes. Not his incredible damage output.

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2 hours ago, Armour said:

I suspect that the secret culprit in making TT perform so well is actually Minako Rei.  Many crews can provide the scrap/shadows required to get the Katashiros out, and then you are creating models with no limit, which can scheme, do damage, and have no summon vulnerabilities (as no upgrade is attached),  All from a 8 SS versatile henchman who can usually pull their weight even without summoning anything.

Don't forget the Karma mechanic and the Wanyudo. Attack her with a weakling and she get an easy way to summon it. Attack with a good model and all her damage versus that one will be irreductible. She is quite good for 8SS.

2 hours ago, Armour said:

My kneejerk response is that ALL summon effects should be attaching upgrades, not just the summoning masters.  This at least allows hypothetical counterplay.  But maybe Minako should just attach the Given Flesh upgrade to the Katashiro?  Then you can't double-dip summons with Asami, the Katashiro have a time limit of existence, and anti-summoning actually works.  Obviously Minako's summon would have to be slightly re-worded to allow Given Flesh to consume shadow markers to discard the starting flicker.

There are other non-master summoners that work fine without attaching upgrades, the big problem of Katashiros is probably how good they are at scheming being also summoned by a decent model like Minako. I wouldn't use the same upgrade than Asami tho, double-dip summons should be doable for TT as it is for other factions.

If I changed something, it'd be giving them an different upgrade to limit a bit the scheming power of summoned Katashiros... for example an upgrade with a rule simmilar to the Soulstone Miner where the Katashiros treat his Interact action as a :ToS-Fast: (that would keep their fighting power and mobility untouched, but it will make them choose between the "Blow by the wind" free 5'' placement or an interact, weakening their scheming power)

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1 hour ago, katadder said:

TT are not dominating uk tourneys though. They have won 2 since 3e release. Outcasts have also won 2 and arcanists have won 5. The other factions have 1 each.

So 2 out of 13 so far. Yep totally broken and need nerfing

Not all tournaments are created equal though. Wasn't this the biggest one so far? Additionally, as the meta develops people will figure out the best models and lists which ought to mean that more recent tournaments are more optimized and should be given more weight.

If TT dominate the next two tournaments it would definitely be worrying from a balance standpoint because people ought to be adapting to Shen, even though by your metric they would be at 4/15 tournaments and would be behind Arcanists.

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1 hour ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

But he appears to be drowning in plus-flips now, and this seems to be a part of the problem - No?

I was under the impression that Shenlongs intended strenghts was his flexible playstyle and abillity to adapt, as the situation changes. Not his incredible damage output.

If he wasn't so mobile with easy access to stealth and butterfly jump he'd be easier to adapt to as well. His weird push without a TN that steals markers also messes immensely with your marker schemes and makes it easy for him to do them himself. 

The winning crew also has excellent card draw which helps with a lot of things. 

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3 hours ago, katadder said:

TT are not dominating uk tourneys though. They have won 2 since 3e release. Outcasts have also won 2 and arcanists have won 5. The other factions have 1 each.

So 2 out of 13 so far. Yep totally broken and need nerfing

That's a misleading way of cutting the tournament results (at best).

Of the 20 UK M3e tournaments on Malifaux Rankings (http://malifaux-rankings.com), plus this weekend's Nationals;

  • Ten Thunders:  6
  • Arcanists:  6
  • Outcasts:  3
  • Ressers:  2
  • Bayou:  2
  • Guild:  1
  • Neverborn:  1

If you look at the podium places of the four Grand Tournaments which have been held, which are the well attended competitive two day events, it's as follows;

  • Thunders:  5
  • Arcanists: 3
  • Outcasts: 2
  • Ressers: 2

Or if you want to exclude the Welsh GT from the beta period it's;  TT 4, Outc 2, Arc 2, Res 1.

UK Nationals (7 rounds, >80 players) top 10 were;  4 Thunders, 4 Outcasts, 1 Arcanist, 1 Resser.

Now we can argue about the right way to count events, and if we should count from a time when the beta was still tinkering around the edges or not, but I really don't think it's honest to present a narrative that TT aren't doing really well at both local and national levels in the UK.

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Let's see, it's true that shenlong is a master with very strong mechanics, yes.

But I have played many games with him and without the company that takes the thing does not work the same. In the end this list allows you to draw a lot of cards, it has a lot of heal, mobility and punch.

The strongest thing I see of shenlong is its irreducible damage trigger. Since with the cards you draw and chi it makes it very difficult for the opponent to prevent you from killing certain key miniatures.

But come on I have a long list of things that I think wyrd has missed. In the end I have the 7 factions and I played practically everything and there are several miniatures that are not well balanced.

 

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4 hours ago, Armour said:

I suspect that the secret culprit in making TT perform so well is actually Minako Rei.  Many crews can provide the scrap/shadows required to get the Katashiros out, and then you are creating models with no limit, which can scheme, do damage, and have no summon vulnerabilities (as no upgrade is attached),  All from a 8 SS versatile henchman who can usually pull their weight even without summoning anything.

My kneejerk response is that ALL summon effects should be attaching upgrades, not just the summoning masters.  This at least allows hypothetical counterplay.

Oh man, Hamelin would be a logistical nightmare.

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26 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Oh man, Hamelin would be a logistical nightmare.

As I asked during beta, there should be a "generic upgrade" doing nothing but saying that the model is a summoned model. Some models could be exempt, like rats, bayou gremlins from demise... So that actions dealing with summons should actually work on summons

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