Strategy/scheme pools for Pandora?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I've been toying with the idea of picking up Pandora for a while now, and was wondering where people see her fitting into strategy/deployment/scheme pools?

Where does she excel? Looking her over, it seems like flank deployment and wedge deployment are good bets, and scheme-marker heavy pools? I imagine she'd be okay at corrupted idols with a small elite crew, but would potentially struggle with turf war? Are there any schemes in particular she is well suited to? Claim Jump seems likely?

[Da Git]

I would have thought anything where the enemy wants to bunch up would be good for her...

[Ogid]

The above, basically, she wants to park her ass in a centered spot and control the battle from there and don't split; her crew isn't good running around doing objetives; she has also bellow average scheme marker droping eficiency and expensive models, so looking for OOK hires isn't a bad idea for pools that require dropping several markers. 

A more detailed answer:

Deployment: Best Wedge or Flank.

Schemes:

• Harness the leyline: Doable, allow her to control a centered spot. Some OOK hire to stack the markers may help. Depends on the amount of denial of the other crew tho.
• Search the ruins: Possible depending on the terrain and the enemy denial.
• Dig their graves/Detonate: Doable, use Misery/Lures to put them in position. Some OOK hires may be good here to help with the markers tho.
• Take prisioner: Good too (lure in and stun/slow/stagger/engage and activate the tentacles), kill everything that come close trying to help.
• Hold up: Not her best, her crew is elite and more killy than tanky... maybe with Lyssas and a Cyclop kidnapping some 5-6SS models near of a pilar.
• Assassinate/Deliver: Master dependant but doable.
• Claim Jump: No brainer with her.
• Vendetta: Doable but depending on the other crew.
• Power Ritual/Breakthrough: Not good. Too mobility oriented.
• Outflank: Not good. She lacks the tools to quickly reinforce a flank and force to split the crew.

Strategies:

• Idols: Decent, needs a elite crew + a few pacts to control the marker drops tho.
• Turf wars: Decent for her, she may control the center point, kill enemies to flip markers and spinball sorrows to interact with the markers.
• Reckoning: Good for her, this is what she does.
• Explosives: Not her best, too mobility oriented.

Cyclop + Lyssas in this crew could be good in certain pools... Lyssa near of a Pilar is tanky for a 4SS model (Df5, 4Wds, Incorporeal and Shielded+1, heal 1, plus possible extra heal pulse from Cyclops), that may be used to score Hold up (especialy considering Lyssa may lure them if they run away, and Cyclops may stagger enemy model around Pilars). The Cyclop droping scheme markers from pilars could be good to stack scheme markers and make easy to defend a smaller Harness the leyline zone or score Dig/Detonate.

For Dig/Detonate Aeslin may be also a good Hire with his "Draw Out Secret" trigger. Cheap models able to drop 2 markers in 1 turn like Wicked Dolls are also to consider.

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

The above, basically, she wants to park her ass in a centered spot and control the battle from there and don't split; her crew isn't good running around doing objetives; she has also bellow average scheme marker droping eficiency and expensive models, so looking for OOK hires isn't a bad idea for pools that require dropping several markers. 

Are you sure? She seems super movement efficient and scheme marker efficient on paper. Her sorrows can leap ~20 inches in a turn. As long as they have some terrain to protect them, should be quite doable.

[Regelridderen]

I’d mostly look at her for Reckoning and Turf War.

Scheming isn’t her strong side, but she’s got Iggy to blow up opponent markers.

I wouldn’t say, she lacks mobility, there are plenty of pushes and incorporeal troops. And models like Sorrows can be deceptively resilient via Life Leech and incorporeal, they can really stak up some wounds - as long as they are kept away from high end beaters. 

Pandora is really great at disrupting the opponent. Once they get in contact with her, they are hit with a combination of Slow/Stunned, that renders them useless, while they waste away from Dam1 pings. The bigger opponents fall, as their attacks are turned against themselves. Most deadly is her resource drain, as she forces tons of WP duels to drain a hand, and once an opponent is drained, Pandora has a field day.

Activation order is imperative with her, as Defense on your best models comes from manipulative, so you want to get those in position via pushes and effects from other models. 

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Are you sure? She seems super movement efficient and scheme marker efficient on paper. Her sorrows can leap ~20 inches in a turn. As long as they have some terrain to protect them, should be quite doable.

I'm quite sure, the only legit is Iggy; and he is much better at denying than he is at scoring. But go ahead and elaborate about it, maybe I'm missing some key tricks.

[Ogid]

2 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Most deadly is her resource drain, as she forces tons of WP duels to drain a hand, and once an opponent is drained, Pandora has a field day.

An important note about this. 2 out of the 4 Models with an Execute trigger in the faction are Woes (Kade and Carver), and Pandora (or a Changeling) may give them a suit. If an oponent cheats too many duels he can be punished very very hard by a woe crew. Both of these models have stat 7 (so very accurate) and with careful planning Kade may have Fast if an enemy is moved with Misery into him (it's possible to set up 5 executes in a turn)

[Maniacal_cackle]

This seems like a pretty narrow list of areas where she excels schemes/strats wise. Would people largely see her as a counterpick? She'd shut down a lot of crews that rely on triggers or bonus actions.

And people mention Iggy removing markers, but also good to note her poltergeist can do it too! And Carver for that matter can remove them at range as well. That's a lot of scheme denial built into the crew.

The mobility seems pretty good though:

• Aversion can push allied models forward.
• Kade has two abilities to move allies (lure and where's teddy)
• Candy can use On your Heels offensively, and hand out fast
• Iggy can gain fast himself.
• Lyssa can 'bring it' on allied models (situational, requires positioning and an 8 card.
• Pandora can push other woes 3" per action (very inefficient, but likely doing this most turns at least once)
• Poltergeist has a 6" incorporeal move
• Sorrow can leap ~10" with an action.
• Hooded Rider has Ride with Me (a staple for the crew according to some of the past posts)

 

[Ogid]

They have some movement tricks, but those aren't that good with scheming imo.

Most of their movement tricks require an ally in the destination point (lure, bring it, where's teddy, misery loves company...) which defeats the point of it for scheming, some of them may target enemies (on your heels, misery loves company) but woes doesn't have "don't mind me" or abilities to disengage that easily and go for schemes (plus most of their mobility uses normal AP, not bonus actions). Those are efficient to reposition allies/enemies and annoy them tho.

Candy may give fast but the basket has very low range, being a tactical action will deal full damage to incorporeal models and it'll also use the APs of one of the most important models of the crew (and a suit), it's far from ideal. Using the Glimpse of insanity for that could be a bit better, but it still requires a trigger, reduce her mobility/ofensive power and may mess with the activation order because you'll generaly want to activate Candy last. Aversion and Pandora pushes are useful, but that won't help that much with scheming beyond giving a model a head start.

Incorporeal gives some good mobility and some defense, but they lack the tools to stand up as good schemers (push to disengage, leaps, don't mind me, nimble, interact as bonus...). The only 2 models that may do some work as schemers are Iggy (with reckless and 3 actions may cover some terrain and interact) and Sorrow; bonus point as both Iggy and Sorrow may use the Misery aura to disengage (after hitting an stat 5 attack tho) having still 2 APs to move and interact; which is the only thing that come close to what good schemers do. Lyssa is cheap and incorporeal, it's not a bad model to put schemes near of the bubble, but not much far away because she has few answers when contested and it's not that hard to kill unless she can get close to an ice pilar (something scarce in a Woe crew). Also the only model able to drop 2 schemes in 1 turn (useful for schemes that ask for many of them) is Iggy (and taking damage).

The good thing about woes pseudschemers is that at least they need to be handled with Care for the other player, what they lose in speed and scheming eficiency is traded for damage or a mix between tankiness and damage: Iggy is squishy, but he may also kill most 5-6SS models that gets too close quite fast (3 min damage counting Misery plus Burning and 3 actions, plus he can also use the Oportunistic (burning) to give himself ain the second and third attack), Sorrow has incorporeal, life leech and give stunned; most 5-6 SS models will struggle to damage him and life leech will tip the balance towards the sorrow over time.

[Nagi21]

The issue I find with a lot of people when looking at Pandora's scheming is two-fold: First, the bubble in their mind is smaller than the actual bubble on the table.  Yes misery is only six inches but that's six inches from every model with it, so that bubble can go from the center of the board to one of the outflank edges pretty easily (assuming a non-diagonal centerline).  In fact I would hesitate to call it a bubble, being it's more like a black hole with other abilities to pull various models in.  Secondly, the actual bubble itself only needs a handful of key models in it.  Pandora and Candy and another cheap misery aura like an aversion or lyssa are all that really needs to be committed to the main center.  Rider splits off as soon as he delivers the candy to the kids.  Teddy and Kade serve almost no bubble purpose shy of the lure and that's just as good with them slingshoting around the table.  You could take Carver and Serena, then you have a reinforcement from Serena via Ted and Carver on multiple fronts.  You could take Angel and then just have her do her own thing independently, or Hinamatsu and the same.  Poltergeist is better served hanging back and supporting the flanks and coming in when he's needed rather than sitting around as a simple stunned aura.

Pandora should ideally be split into two halves as a crew:  Pandora, Candy, and the small minions to hold the center, and then the mid-high tier minions and enforcers to play on the outside.  If they commit to a flank then you have ways to stop that.  If they see a weaker bubble and come to break the center, then (usually) Pandora and Candy can do their thing long enough to pull reinforcements in from the side.  Obviously there are some schemes you're never going to want to take (Power Ritual, breakthrough, outflank in a corner deployment), and obviously if your opponent brings a crew that wants to fight in the center or the scheme pool is all middle of the board based, you bring the black hole and drop the hammer (the secret word is Teddy).  

Pandora 3e is not Pandora 2e where she wants a bubble and if she doesn't she's gonna be behind.  She wants a bubble around her and some models, but the crew has mobility (that doesn't make it a mobile crew) and a lot of tools to work away from each other.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Nagi21 great points. Initially I was quite confused about Pandora being a bubble crew, since her auras don't stack, I had initially assumed she wasn't a bubble crew at all. Good to hear that sentiment is at least partially on the right track.

[Ogid]

Good points, they can work like the MSU; can bubble hard or can have some packs of 2-3 models around supporting each other (Reading my older posts in this thread, I maybe stressed too much the full bubble idea). 

Covering more terrain is fine versus the right enemy crews; but it also opens some vulnerabilities that can be exploited by the right foes; it's not that easy for a woe crew to reinforce quickly a flank from the center with something that's not a Sorrow.

[Nagi21]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Covering more terrain is fine versus the right enemy crews; but it also opens some vulnerabilities that can be exploited by the right foes; it's not that easy for a woe crew to reinforce quickly a flank from the center with something that's not a Sorrow.

Pure woe would have trouble yes, but the versatile models we have access to can gap close pretty fast (Rider and Hina first come to mind).

[Regelridderen]

15 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

 Teddy and Kade serve almost no bubble purpose shy of the lure and that's just as good with them slingshoting around the table. 

Pandora and Candy might not need support from Kade and the bear, but Kade really appreciates getting a guaranteed suit from Pandora and have a Misery aura push trigger his Pounce. Getting hit by 3 executes or coordinated ‘bear claws’ really puts a drain on an opponent, and hitting your opponent hard is the murder baby’s best defense.

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When it comes to Strategies, I think, Pandora has a lot of adaptation options, dependant on opponents. After hiring the guaranteeds Pandora, Candy and the Poltergeist.

For Reckoning, look to the execution’ers Kade and Carver. Once resources are drained, you can go to town on the hard models, enforcers, Henchmen and masters. Also do not underestimate the staying power of Sorrows. Incorporeal and Life Leech goes along way - a min. Dam3 model will most like ly need at least three actions to take it out.

For Turf War where killing is equally important, make sure your crew has some mobility via Iggy/Sorrows, to get out from the central brawl.

For Idols you need a combination of initiative, big bases and speed. Ancient Pact upgrade plus versatiles like Hinamatsu and Hooded. The pact gives you initiative bonus to decide, where the idols spawn, the big bases can cover the idols and stop enemies from interacting. Once you determine where the idols drop, you draw opponents into their demise.

For Plant Explosives I let the minions dominate. Sorrows and Aversions Incorporeal gives mobility for bomb drops while their Misery allows them to affect fighting from a distance. The beaters need to hold the tide of, but actual kills are less relevant. 

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When it comes to tailoring to an opponent, I look mostly to the beaters. Will Terrifying be an issue, then Carver and the Rider will be more relevant than Teddy/Kade - Ruthless is great, but the keyword in general has more synergy with Terrifying of its own draining opponents hands. If Armor and Demise abilities are dominant, then Kade/Carver will have a field day with the Execute trigger.

For schemes I generally avoid those involving scheme markers, and take those that let me profit from the things, the crew already does best. namely killing and pushing opponents around.