Crime & Punishment - Poor Arcanist players

[Ogid]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'd say you could make exactly the same argument about any figure in any box if you want. But I'm not restricted to "tribal" lines and if I buy the Zipp box it's because I wanted to play Zipp. If I only want it for the first mate, then I decide if the box is worth the cost. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. I've got a load of metal masters that I don't have totems for because it wasn't worth rebuying the rest of the box for the totem. I also own some masters multiple times because I chose to buy a second box for 1 figure. 

That never born player has bought a crew for 2 different factions containing 6 figures. Its their choice if they only use one. And it's their choice if that is a worthwhile purchase. 

I wouldn't make that argument for any other box (that I aware right now). Most boxes include models from 1 keyword or from 1 faction; those models could fit more or less my playstyle, but these are models I may use in a game. This game is "organized" in a Faction vs Faction style (it is nice being able to start to play with one master only tho) and the boxes are expected to be organized like that. It's like if in Warhammer fantasy a player is forced to buy a big box of goblins to get a high elf commander for example.

In the first mate case one of the best henchmans of the crew is hidden behind a 50 bucks "paywall" for a NVB player that doesn't care about Bayou/Outcasts. It's not about being "tribal", it's about having a budget; not everyone want or can collect more than one faction. In my case, I do like Zoraida; but that Master is very low in my purchase list right now for the First Mate. It's annoying having to buy Zipp to get access to one of his best models, (tho this case is a M2E sprue issue as far as I know) and I can buy a lot of NVB miniatures with those 50 bucks.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

And honestly, 3rd party online single model sellers exist... no one with a brain is paying fifty American dollars for the first mate.

This is a good point. Any suggestions on sites? I know about Gadzooks Gaming and that's it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

In the first mate case one of the best henchmans of the crew is hidden behind a 50 bucks "paywall" for a NVB player that doesn't care about Bayou/Outcasts.

I think this hits the nail on the head. It exacerbates pay-to-win concerns (or pay-to-have-an-edge concerns). 

Granted it is likely this way simply because sprues were set up this way from previous editions, so can't really complain too much about it. But when they do it intentionally it is pretty poor form.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

In the first mate case one of the best henchmans of the crew is hidden behind a 50 bucks "paywall" for a NVB player that doesn't care about Bayou/Outcasts.

I’m going to try to focus on the important point:  The amazing amount of evil genius that you’re crediting Mr. Caroland with.

Have you seen the pictures of the sprues in the Zipp box?  It’s two pieces of plastic, one is Zipp, the First Mate, the Doctor dude, and an Iron Skeeter connected by a plastic runner.  The other piece of plastic is two iron skeeters connected by a plastic runner.  That’s the answer to two questions “Why are Iron Skeeters sold in a box of two?” and “Why is the First Mate not available separately?”  And also probably the answer to “How big a mold did Wyrd contract out to use and produce?”

At least, it is when you consider that those models were released three years ago, with the 2016 book, and Wyrd outsources their plastic production.  So the sequence of events is:

• ”We’ve got the money for X number of molds, and we’ve got to fit Y models on there.”
• ”This fish guy is part of Zipp’s theme, right?”
• ”Another master, henchman, and minions box done.  What’s next?”

Because, honestly, if you’re complaining that the best henchman of the keyword is locked in box with the theme it released with, the solution Wyrd can probably afford is to make it no longer the best henchman in that keyword.  Because they’re sort of stuck with the sprue choices they made.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

@solkan totally agree it is understandable given the circumstances.  

If they were intentionally doing this stuff it'd be over the line. As it is, it is a frustration we have to live with.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

I’m going to try to focus on the important point:  The amazing amount of evil genius that you’re crediting Mr. Caroland with.

Haha. I'm not saying there is an evil plan there, most boxes are legit. However this is very unfortunate for a NBV player that doesn't play OUT/BAY, the fact this is caused by that "legacy" sprue doesn't make it suck less; but it does make me more prone to understand it as there is no foul play.

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, solkan said:

Because, honestly, if you’re complaining that the best henchman of the keyword is locked in box with the theme it released with, the solution Wyrd can probably afford is to make it no longer the best henchman in that keyword.  Because they’re sort of stuck with the sprue choices they made.

I missed this bit before. If Wyrd realized they cannot offer it to NVB players, It would had been a legit solution; but in beta/alpha, now is late for that kind of changes.

However there is always other ways. For example making a cool alt model and sell it in a small box. That would be a must buy for NVB players and I'm sure a good percentaje of Bayou and Outcast players will also get it because we all love those kind of stuff and the first mate is a very popular model.

13 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Because the majority of people are satisfied, no it's not bad.

And honestly, 3rd party online single model sellers exist... no one with a brain is paying fifty American dollars for the first mate.

Nice, very supportive of you! Everyone has to be satisfied (and honestly 2 out of 3 isn't that big, that's a 33.3% of the players screwed).

Also those solutions aren't reliable (second hand) or are hurting Wyrd and also the players if they are caught in an official event with a "hacked" model (buy it for someone else)

[Tors]

8 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I missed this bit before. If Wyrd realized they cannot offer it to NVB players, It would had been a legit solution; but in beta/alpha, now is late for that kind of changes.

However there is always other ways. For example making a cool alt model and sell it in a small box. That would be a must buy for NVB players and I'm sure a good percentaje of Bayou and Outcast players will also get it because we all love those kind of stuff and the first mate is a very popular model.

Nice, very supportive of you! Everyone has to be satisfied (and honestly 2 out of 3 isn't that big, that's a 33.3% of the players screwed).

Also those solutions aren't reliable (second hand) or are hurting Wyrd and also the players if they are caught in an official event with a "hacked" model (buy it for someone else)

You're math is off! Assuming the Factions are distributed evenly, thats 1/7 of the players for Nvb only (proably a little less, as we can exclude the NVB/Bayou Players). Assuming half of them don't care about swampfiend in general, the first mate or the money "wasted" on the Rest of the Zipp, and the other half do, for what ever reasons. Thats 1/14 or roughly 7%.

7% that have at least 4 other options (split boxes/ buy with single part resellers or second hand [as they sold whole boxes from Wyrd in the first place there isn't even much of a draw back for wyrd]/ convert your own model). Not counting just borrowing one for am Event OR BEWARE! playing without first Mate. All of this solutions are perfectly fine, doable and even officially tournament legal.

Thats better than "not bad" thats not even a Problem

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Tors said:

You're math is off! Assuming the Factions are distributed evenly, thats 1/7 of the players for Nvb only (proably a little less, as we can exclude the NVB/Bayou Players). Assuming half of them don't care about swampfiend in general, the first mate or the money "wasted" on the Rest of the Zipp, and the other half do, for what ever reasons. Thats 1/14 or roughly 7%.

7% that have at least 4 other options (split boxes/ buy with single part resellers or second hand [as they sold whole boxes from Wyrd in the first place there isn't even much of a draw back for wyrd]/ convert your own model). Not counting just borrowing one for am Event OR BEWARE! playing without first Mate. All of this solutions are perfectly fine, doable and even officially tournament legal.

Thats better than "not bad" thats not even a Problem

We were talking all the time about the players that may field the first mate (so 3 factions, 2/3) and I didn't want to complicate the maths too much. But if you insinst: Neverborn is more popular than Bayou/Outcast (not necesarily bettter tho) and Zoraida is a very popular Master in NVB (in a recent poll in the NVB faction forum, tied with Dreamer for the second more popular master of the faction after Pandora), so those numbers are much higher than your estimation. And watching it from a keyword point of view, it affects to half of the players that want to play Swampfiends (and if a player decides his favourite faction is NVB and he is going to start collecting Zoraida... well, tough luck man!)

And yes, there are options (I myself have a friend who play bayou from I could borrow the first mate if needed); but when that player want to complete that keyword, it'll be much harder (expensive) for him than with any other keyword. Those "solutions" are just patches:

• Splitting boxes? Good luck finding a Bayou/Outcast player that want to give up the Henchman.
• Second hand single model? Not reliable (hard to find) and expensive (it won't be a fair price)
• Borrow it? It can be done, but it require a Bayou player in your meta willing to lend it and that isn't playing that tournament.
• Not having it... the point of completing a keyword is having all the options avaliable.

Maybe it's not a problem for you if you don't play NVB or you play Bayou/Outcast. For for some players it is. It's not a gigantic problem, the model is still avaliable; but it's much harder to get than it should for half of the players that want to play Swampfiend.

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, Ogid said:

if they are caught in an official event with a "hacked" model (buy it for someone else)

I'm just not sure what this means at all. How is buying a single model second hand a "hack" or something a player will get in trouble for at an event?


As for my solution to the first mate thing, I'm just gonna find a sailor's hat and maybe an anchor and stick them on a Silurid.

[Ogid]

Just now, santaclaws01 said:

I'm just not sure what this means at all. How is buying a single model second hand a "hack" or something a player will get in trouble for at an event?


As for my solution to the first mate thing, I'm just gonna find a sailor's hat and maybe an anchor and stick them on a Silurid.

With "3rd party sellers" I thought more in a model created with a homemade sprue or a 3D printer. If it's a crew for someone else or a single model for Wyrd then it would be no problem.

The Silurid one could work if the TO agrees, but conversions are supposed to use the original model. A Silurid with a hat would be a cool Silurid with the GG0 rules.

[CD1248]

If it's that big of a deal buy a Warden off a bits reseller like Gadzooks, or secondhand.

Or buy the m2e warden box which appears to still be for sale right now.

Sounds like a textbook case of making a mountain out of a molehill.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

With "3rd party sellers" I thought more in a model created with a homemade sprue or a 3D printer. If it's a crew for someone else or a single model for Wyrd then it would be no problem.

Yeah,it just means buying the single mini from someone else instead of in a box.

 

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

The Silurid one could work if the TO agrees, but conversions are supposed to use the original model. A Silurid with a hat would be a cool Silurid with the GG0 rules.

I haven't met anyone that would be that much of a stickler.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

As for my solution to the first mate thing, I'm just gonna find a sailor's hat and maybe an anchor and stick them on a Silurid.

I was thinking of doing this exact thing xD. So yeah, good suggestion!

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Although it is unfortunate that this is prohibited by Gaining Grounds, as I think this has implications for Wyrd support in terms of prizes? I don't think Henchman are allowed to deviate from those guidelines if running official Wyrd events?

So a Silurid with an anchor couldn't show up to any new official events run by Henchmen (but was fine under the old rules)?

[solkan]

36 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Although it is unfortunate that this is prohibited by Gaining Grounds, as I think this has implications for Wyrd support in terms of prizes? I don't think Henchman are allowed to deviate from those guidelines if running official Wyrd events?

See Page 11, the callout box:

Quote

Also, the winner of every event must burn their models as a sacrifice to the one true imp... me!

Just kidding. But to be clear: this document is malleable, and should a TO disagree with something in here, it is completely up
to them to make the change for the benefit of themselves and their community. It's your event, not mine.

The only people that would probably get in trouble for not using the guidelines as specified would be the people getting paid to run an event.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, solkan said:

See Page 11, the callout box:

The only people that might get in trouble for not using the guidelines would be the people getting paid cash to run an event.

And Henchmen don't get paid.  

 

Ah, the malleable line is something I missed! Thanks Solkan.

Yeah, there are some pretty decent options then for getting these models! I'll likely go the Silurid route myself, thanks for the suggestion SantaClaws.

[Kadeton]

I've pruned the thread of some inappropriate comments and issued warnings, since things escalated after I specifically asked people not to do so.

Again: Be respectful of other forum users at all times, not "until they say something you disagree with" or "until they say something disrespectful".

[yool1981]

On 11/9/2019 at 8:04 PM, CD1248 said:

If it's that big of a deal buy a Warden off a bits reseller like Gadzooks, or secondhand.

Or buy the m2e warden box which appears to still be for sale right now.

Sounds like a textbook case of making a mountain out of a molehill.

Gadzook currently has 1 warden and shipping cost to my country puts the single warden at 27 USD... Additionally, availability on Gadzook is not always guaranteed.

The M2E version is not available in well known webstores in Europe but available on Wyrd on which shipping costs is usually a deal-killer for European.

The model is unless I am wrong not elligible for special order either.

That leaves second hand market and luck.

So although this is not the end of the word, this is extremely annoying to have to pay for 2 executionners I don't need (as some players have said, sometimes you are on a budget with your miniature purchases). I think this is a poor choice from Wyrd (or a mistake? only one keyword is printed on the box, did they forget the Warden was augmented when the issued the box?)

[Allandrel]

I am very firmly in the camp of "models packed together should share the exact same set of keywords." This is doubly true if one of them can be hired out of faction, but the other cannot.

Having to but a model in your faction, but out of your master's keyword, in order to get a model that is in your master's keyword is frustrating - but at least you can hire it out-of-keyword.

Having to buy a model that you cannot hire AT ALL in order to get a model that is in your master's keyword is unacceptable.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just noticed that third edition Rasputina doesn't have the elementals in her core box (unlike second edition).

This is an improvement, I believe, becauase it means it is easier for Sandeep to collect elementals to summon.

So there's definitely some improvements in reshuffling as well!

[dzlier]

On 11/6/2019 at 1:55 AM, yool1981 said:

who do you want to share with? A Guild player that will also want the Warden because it is in his faction?

Since Wardens used to be in their own box, maybe one that Bought the Wardens but not Executioners?

[Gnomezilla]

49 minutes ago, dzlier said:

Since Wardens used to be in their own box, maybe one that Bought the Wardens but not Executioners?

That would be someone who played Hoffman yet not any iconic Guild list...there aren’t many of us! (And we are raising an eyebrow at the complaints over having to buy the First Mate out of faction, having done the same to acquire Joss—arachnids were a bit of an afterthought in most lists.)

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

And we are raising an eyebrow at the complaints over having to buy the First Mate out of faction, having done the same to acquire Joss—arachnids were a bit of an afterthought in most lists.

Well, you know the saying: "Evil of many...".

Joss is now in a box with only Augmented.

[KGC.MILKBAG]

On 11/6/2019 at 1:55 AM, yool1981 said:

As to the SKU reduction, have you seen the number of stand alone ref boxes?

I mean you see a lot of 2e boxes with stand alone models.  How many standalone 3e boxes have been released???