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What's up with Lucius

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I’d love to play around with Lucius at some point, as I love the idea of stopping a bunch of rotting zombies with a lawsuit. But I’m not entire sure, what to do...

I’m looking at mimic/elite tricks :

Mimic there are lots of unique abilities/attacks, that can be great to reproduce/abuse in multiples, and with doppelganger, agent 46 and changelings, you’ve got lots of opportunities.

Obey Zoraida has gotten a bad reputation from this, and with lawyers, mimics, you get plenty of chances to turn the opponents crew against him - or throw idols around, And obeying your own is of course a great way to direct damage and focus your efforts towards a particular target.

Card Draw Activating models out of turn, can give you cards, however only if the activation came from a more expensive model... Within keyword this mean Lucius can draw cards from everybody, while lawyers can obey investigators to draw cards... I feel, I’m overlooking some clever tricks here.

Staggering Garrotes this seems inefficient, but interesting. Hitting opponents with staggered for extra damage with stat7 attacks. But 0’ reach makes these dependent on good planning.
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How do you play him? What models do you hire for him? What strats does he excel at? How do you approach him as a Neverborn player?

 

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Kind of a place to start.

 

Lucius is a very interesting master, his keyword relays a lot on how obey works and drawing the cards to replace you hand, the abilitybtondiscars cards making models that shouldn't be as tough as they seem.

 

Remember that lawyers are 6ss they count as 8ss for the purposes of when they obey your own models meaning they can obey investigators and other lawyers to draw cards, also tools for the job is till end of the turn,

 

From playing this crew you might need to obey into an obey (dont this to obey from around a corner to obey a model I couldn't see.

 

Also lucius can only obey friendly mimics elites and minions so this will have an effect on additional models you take out of keywors, while the lawyers can obey anything.

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Apart for the answer I gave in the other thread: https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147902-lucius-what’s-his-trick/?do=findComment&comment=1196979

I don't know the synergies in GUI, but I can guess some good some models that can go very well with them in NVB... Lucius have to be great to play when a player owns most of the faction:

  • For long range firepower the 2 clear winers for me are Candy with her self-loathing and Angel Eyes with the ignore Cover attack (to copy with both mimics). Concealment will be a problem (that can be solved with BBS pulsing focus on the other hand)
  • In NVB there is also a good staggered theme to support the investigators: Vasilisa plus a few puppets, the Emissary and maybe Cyclops would be the safest ones.
  • Hinamatsu is a very good model, lawyers giving her shielded will help her a lot considering her Armor+2 (4 damage needed to make her reduce her Wds) and if they can obey a model a make him dissengage; then a free Wicked attack for Hinamatsu during which the player control the flip of both models. Plus all the utility she brings (staggered with Vasilisa, Lure, Distracted...)
  • Vasilisa fits nicely in a staggered list; plus she can summon stitched together out of scrap (dolls dying), heal constructs and with False claim she can also obey easily other allied minions. Both Vasilisa and the dolls get some bonuses when attacking staggered models. As happens with Hinamatsu Armor+2 plus shielded is hard to crack. A list with puppets, investigators and Lawyers has to be hard as nails.
  • The Emissary is tough, may stagger and may attack versus Mv (very useful in a staggered heavy list). Plus the Agent47 copying Roots for bellow may be quite good to trigger reliabily tomes/crows for some serious CC or blasts; Grasping tentacles is a very good control ability on top of all the staggered and can be even used by a Changeling. Staggered + Grasping is a serius lock up.
  • The rider and Agent47 can be good dive buddies, ride with me, 2 greatswords and Analyze Weaknessess, nothing fancy but very effective.
  • Candy is another good dive buddy for the Agent47 (while also enabling some ranged firepower with the self-loathing); she also has a "on your heels" trigger, her corrupted inocence aura is nuts (the stunned may also help the Agent to stay alive), she has a heal (with a "burnt out" trigger if offense instead of healing is needed). The basket is a very good target for changelings.
  • Aeslin: Potentialy quite good, both mimics may copy Decay with the Into Thorns trigger for some serious damage, Injured and control (specialy for staggered lists, staggered into severe terrain is a nasty combo)
  • Serena is another very good buddy for the Agent 47, IP could make very easy to get the Hole in the world trigger whem the agent is copying her ranged attack; and her mele damage track and range is good, on top of that a heal for the squishy agent and she being Eternal.
  • The Grootslang seems very fun with them, not sure how good tho. Both Agent47 and the Dopplegange may mimic "Lair to Lair" (Changelings too but needing a 9 instead of a 7, 6 or 5), this can be used to give them a very high mobility when the Grootslang is near (Changelings may also be used to Create Lairs instead of having to use the Grootslang AP for that). Plus he is Wicked, which pairs nicely with Lawyer's Obey (same that Hinamatsu) and it has the Slink Away trigger that may be used to reposition the Agent47 in a pinch.
  • Killjoy is another one that could be potentialy good, but not sure how much. Masive Cleaver have a good damage track and good triggers; Drink blood may give the Agent 47 a very good sustain considering the other player cannot cheat and he can stone for damage reduction or the suit in a pinch.
  • A pretty cheesy one very dependent on the other team. Including Thoon for potentialy 3 Frozen Trophy in one turn including Agent47 and Doppleganger, if a few model are imprisoned, it can snowball quickly.
  • Another cheesy strat, include the Widow Weaver to misposition enemies very easily with the "Into Dream Web" trigger (both using WW or the Mimics)
  • The BBS focusing pluse and growing into a mature can also be a very good model for the crew, Focused is always handy. And a Mature could be really good in this crew with so many obeys (and being a minion), plus his attacks are good to copy. Plus Fly with me is always great.
  • Cyclops is another one that looks great, he is pretty self-suficient being able to create ice pilars to trigger his own Frozen Vigor, the pilars can be used as cover for the crew, to drop schemes, heal, stagger and on top of it he has a good damage track and Wds for his cost. Lyssa can be a good model to hire with the Cyclops, to force things to move near of a Ice pilar to stagger them with the Cyclops, it has Myssery (Staggered) plus copying the claws attacks with the mimics (getting also the suit) can be pretty fun.
  • Autum Knights: One of the best minion tarpits of the faction, it'd be good keeping an eye on them. Plus they have Germinate to put some severe terrain (also usable by Changelings)
  • Rougarous: One of the hardest hitting minions on the Faction; these may benefice a lot from shielded, also very interesting to keep an eye on them.
  • Wisps: Squishy as hell but they may give a lot of negative conditions (also his attack could be a good target for the Doppleganger/Agent when controling is more important than killing); and may be replaced by an Azde, also interesting to keep an eye.

 Masters that could fit in:

  • Dreamer (without LCB): Cheap as second master (but also kind of squishy), in turn 2 he could had summoned his SS cost in minions, getting 2 high mask for him would be easy to do in a crew with so much card draw; both Stitched together and Insidious Madness may be good tarpits that can also be delivered with the Wp attacks of other models while the kid is in Scheme duty. Alph isn't as good as the 2 above, but I can see one use for him with the Agent47: Agent uses analyze weaknessess with the trigger to place into B2B with a dangerous model(s), that would also summon the Alph; now the agent has efectively H2W versus those models.
  • Euripides: Some Savages fits the crew quite well and Changelings may copy his Tactical to drop a LOT of pilars while also dealing indirect damage.
  • Pandora: May be good versus condition focused crew if the Scribe isn't enough. She has a good long range attack and a very powerful pulse and bring good tacticals for the Changelings and Poltergeist may be also decent with the crew (Distraction into Obey or Boring Conversation) and False Witnesses may drop scheme markers for good damage Telekinesis
  • Nekima: Not sure how good she would be. She may be a good disruptive piece while the rest of the crew do their thing. Shielded from lawyers, plus the Scribe supporting her could be handy.
  • Titania: As above, it could work but not sure how well. She is a good tarpit, synergize with some models of the crew and let the crew to include Gorar, who may be used to bring an enforcer or minion back like the Doppleganger, the Emissary or a Mature/Rougarou/Investigator. Plus Changelingsmay copy her Germinate to reposition or create severe and concealing terrain (for restrict enemy movement, set up into thorns trigger or defend the crew versus ranged attacks)
  • I don't think Zoraida and Marcus synergice very well with him. 2 suportish masters is risky... maybe Zoraida to generate scrap for Vasilisa, plus obey is always handy, the card draw would be overkill tho...

This would need some testing to see which ones are really viables, but NVB opens a ton of posible variations and shenanigans for Lucius crew.

Edit: Lol, just got ninjed by Gaston XD. Browing his thread, I missed the Distraction aura in the False Witness... That is huge for Wp based attacks in NVB like self-loathing, twist reality, the Wisp/Insidious one... The FWess are squishy but if something get near of them (or one of the reposition tricks mentioned above are used to put a model into the aura), it can get heavily punished.

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Don't forget that changelings can use "just like you" to use Lucius' "Issue command". If you use a changeling to use issue command on lucius, they can have him issue a command to someone else with "following orders" to trigger card draw. And remember that it's still the changelings activation so, you can issue command again in Lucius' activation to trigger more card draw from the same model.

You can of course have a lawyer obey the changeling to use just like you to issue command on Lucius to issue command to another model with following orders to get 2 card draws from the same action. This is quite card intensive and time consuming, but doable...

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1 hour ago, Hawkoon said:

You can of course have a lawyer obey the changeling to use just like you to issue command on Lucius to issue command to another model with following orders to get 2 card draws from the same action. This is quite card intensive and time consuming, but doable...

This chain activation is legal, but It's a kind of gamble imo.

A lawyer needs a 9:mask(just a 9 if it was activated before and got the mask as free suit) and the Changeling needs a 7 for issue command. The Lucius player could flip really well and end with 2 extra cards, but if the flips doesn't go his way, he could end needing to cheat 2 moderate to severe cards to draw 2 cards that could be 2 weak ones.

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It depends on whether you have the cards in hand or not, and if you are able to use them to draw new ones. A 7 or a 9 honestly isn't that valuable anyway and cycling them out for better (or getting worse cards out of your deck) isn't that bad.

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1 hour ago, Dark Reaper said:

It depends on whether you have the cards in hand or not, and if you are able to use them to draw new ones. A 7 or a 9 honestly isn't that valuable anyway and cycling them out for better (or getting worse cards out of your deck) isn't that bad.

A 7 and a 9 aren't that valuable that's true. But not always you'll have exactly those 2 cards; imagine a hand of 1,4,6,9,11,12. If only one of them is failed then a 9 for 2 cards is a good trade, but if both duels go south then having to cheat a 9 and a 11 for 2 cards hurts.

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I love Lucius, I liked him last edition even before the errata. He is my favorite master this edition. I do not have agent 46 yet so for a beater I bring a mature Nephilim. I like to put inhuman reflexes on it and just make the thing charge a lot of times a turn. My normal list is 

Lucius Scheme (Neverborn) Size: 50 - Pool: 5 Leader: Lucius Mattheson Totem(s): The Scribe Hires: Doppleganger

Mature Nephilim Inhuman Reflexes Changeling Ancient Pact

Changeling 2 Ancient Pact

Guild Lawyer

Guild Lawyer 2

Everyone buffs up the Mature and Doppleganger and moves into position saving those two for the last activation. By that time something tends to be forward enough for the Mature to charge usually with high cards to do some damage.  Starting turn two everyone makes the mature charge doing a damage from blade rush on top of what ever he can get to hit. It is a great way to get around a bunch of defensive tech. Having him engaged helps keep him alive as well.

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Ty for the list. I'm a bit surprised to see 2 Ancient Pact in that list tho. Are these really worth it with Lucius?

And have you tried the 2 other top notch minions beaters with him? Geryon seems very solid with Lucius (specialy paired with a Cyclops to have Frozen Vigor and extra healing; the Old Ways is an amazing ability and Dopple/Agent can even copy Shoulder Rush to get an extra focused at the cost of a low tome the first turn), Rougarou would need a bit of help staying alive, but that one hits like a truck (specialy paired with a Knight to generate underbrushes near).

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I've been thinking about a list with Lucius that could be quite amusing. I'm not sure how competitive it'd be, but it's probably very fun, I'd pay to see the face of someone not expecting this XDD.

List: Lucius, The scribe, Euripides, Primordial Magic, Geryon (Inhuman Reflexes), Changeling, Changeling2, Changeling3, Black Blood Shaman. Cache 0.

I'm not a fan of low caches, but it could work well as the main beaters are minions and it's not a suit dependent list.

The fun thing about this list is the stupid amount of Ice pilars that may be created: Euripides may drop 2 per AP with a tome, that action may be copied by the Changelings and Lucius may order the Changelings to use it (going full retard droping Pilars and getting the double tome each time 18 pilars may be dropped in 1 turn XDD). This list has the potential to generate more pilars than a Savage one by a large margin.

But generate Pilars it's not just for the sake of it. Each time that action is used, enemies near of the created pilars (that action, not every pilar) will need to perform a Mv14 duel or get damaged (2 damage). So it may generate a lot of indirect damage and create very serious roadblocks, a lot of Cover and restrict LoS; the pilars are destructible but having declared Lucius as Leader anti-terrain abilities aren't expected and removing them with AP is extremely ineficient. Bonus point: Lucius' Hiden Sniper ignores Cover. The crew has also some scheme denial in the Primordial Magic "Sheer Cold" thanks to the amount of Pilars.

The high number of pilars may also be used by the Geryon later to refill his Wds (1 Pilar = 2 Wds). Primordial Magic may be used to give Incorporeal to the Geryon, making it more durable and able to ignore the pilars while charging around (when the mature grows, he will also ignore them thanks to flight and Euripides may move around with his bonus action also using the pilars). Geryon is also interesting to obey because he can reposition, damage and focus all at once with Shoulder Rush.

Appart for spamming pilars the Changelings may be used to issue command the Geryon/Mature; 2 nice beaters. Shoulder Rush is another interesting ability for a Changeling, letting him shoulder rush into a bunch of models, deal some damage and then use Whispered Truths (The chances of come out alive of shuch a move are low; but if a bunch of models are slowed and damaged, it may be very worth it)

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10 hours ago, Ogid said:

Ty for the list. I'm a bit surprised to see 2 Ancient Pact in that list tho. Are these really worth it with Lucius?

And have you tried the 2 other top notch minions beaters with him?

My first game going ancient on both changelings the first one blacked jokers his first flip so it won a lot of favor for that. I find this crew makes of every card you can get. There have been games that those extra two cards have helped tremendously. Pluse two to initiative helps keep your beater alive when you have a better chance to go first and deal with what ever problem last turn leaves you.

 

I have not tried the other beaters mostly because I don't own them yet and the Mature works so well.

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4 hours ago, Corwin said:

My first game going ancient on both changelings the first one blacked jokers his first flip so it won a lot of favor for that. I find this crew makes of every card you can get. There have been games that those extra two cards have helped tremendously. Pluse two to initiative helps keep your beater alive when you have a better chance to go first and deal with what ever problem last turn leaves you.

mmm... I see you are using 2 Lawyers, maybe those needs to cicle faster to get more high cards to cheat obey. The +2 to initiative is very good tho.

4 hours ago, Corwin said:

I have not tried the other beaters mostly because I don't own them yet and the Mature works so well.

Fair enough. The mature seems very good; however running only 1 beater could be risky imo. If the other player manage to kill it early, you'll have a ton of obeys/commands, but no good model to command.

I'm not sure how the points would fit, but another way to get the mature early without paying for a full mature would be with Vasilisa. Including Vasi and BBS (doable droping the mature+IR plus one of the 2 Pacts), you may grow it in turn 1 thanks to Pulling the Strings (can use :ToS-Fast: actions); you'd miss the upgrade tho. That would orient the list a bit toward the staggered theme and maybe you'd want to change it to include a few dolls and a Investigator, but Vasilisa by herself is a good tarpit (especially if she may get some shielded)

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@Corwin, I've been thinking about a Vasi list adapting yours; check this one out:

  • List: Lucius, Scribe, Alan Reid, Vasilisa, Black Blood Shaman, Lawyer, Wicked Doll, Wicked Doll 2, Wicked Doll 3, Changeling, Changeling 2. Cache 4.

The advantage of this list is having 11 models, that's a lot of spare AP to score and it'll give the other player a lot of pass tokens; putting him in the position of giving Lucius lots of cards or the activation control (Alan gives also an extra free card). And even if the Mature is killed, there is plenty of good targets to obey. The trade off is it'll make easier for him to gain initiative and it also loses the strong charge+IR synergy. I dropped the 2 Pacts because it won't be enough to counteract the amount of pass token given and for the high number of card draw of this list.

Turn 1 set up: The idea would be growing the BBS into a mature in turn 1 thanks to "Knife" corpse generation (fliping/cheating 2 masks) and using twice "Blasphemous Ritual" thanks to Vasilisa (which will generate 2 Focused+1 pulses), this will let the player have a Mature with 8 Wds in turn 2. I'd also use Alan to kill one of the dolls after it activates. Startle (relent) + a charge (relent) will one shot it. Then that Scrap may be used to summon an Stitched Together (needs a 9+:mask) and this gives another pass token to the other player. This will require 3 masks, but with the amount of card draw, it won't be hard to do. If all goes according to plan at the end of turn 1 this will be the list:

  • Lucius, Scribe, Alan Reid, Vasilisa, Mature Nephillim, Lawyer, Stitched Together, Wicked Doll, Wicked Doll 2, Changeling, Changeling 2. Cache 4.

The ability to replace the dolls with the Stitcheds is very good to both give the other player more pass tokens (cards for Lucius) and to generate more reliable puppets to tie enemy models. The Stitched together are decent tarpits, plus a dangerous but unreliable piece with the Gamble. Lucid Dreams may be used to set up 1 good gamble your life each turn; but It can be obeyed to use Gamble your life even without that safety net (in a Lucius crew there won't be a hot deck, so it may end killing the sitiched; but as Vasilisa may heal it or summon more, it's not that big of a deal). Funny thing, Gamble your life is a tactical action, so Lucius can gamble his Changelings in a pinch XDD. Another good synergy of gamble is the buit in "Bloody Fate" trigger to cicle low cards. Stitched mele attack is average; but if a high ram is removed with Lucid Dreams, a focused attack with Drink blood may heal them a lot (specialy if the target is killed as it also has Eat your Fill)

Other interesting Synergy is "Drawn out secret" Obey trigger (from Lawyers) and Vasilisa's "Pull out the strings". The Lawyer may obey a Mature/Stitched and drop a Scheme marker, marker used later by Vasilisa to obey that model (and as Vasilisa obey may use bonus actions, it may even be used to heal the Mature consuming the corpse of a recently killed model, repositon 2 models with "Fly with me", use Lucid Dreams to remove a high card for another good gamble that turn or use "Impasioned defense" again). Dolls may also be good to set up schemes for this with Creep along. Vasilisa, the dolls/stitcheds and Alan may stagger a lot of model and take advantage of that; plus the "Needle and Thread" attack may force other models to discard a lot of cards or become useless that turn.

I like how this list looks like. It mixes the obey shenanigans of Lucius quite nicely with a Puppet theme that gives the list some backbone (high Df armored models, healing and the ability to replace fallen puppets) and control (staggered, discard card or disable abilities...) which will help to keep alive the importat pieces (and it's also thematic, I can imagine Lucius using Puppets as disposable assets). Puppets also support the staggered theme well and adds some punch with Gamble your Life (very unreliable after the first one and with short range, but the threat of it could make the other player think twice before diving into range of it). It's also nice having 4-5 Keywords in a same list working so well together. Losing the IR in the mature hurts a bit, but I think it's worth it and I personaly rather a list that may adapt if one or 2 key pieces die.

I'm starting to like Lucius a lot, the ability to be able to field very different playstyles is quite good imo (and fitting for a Mimic theme).

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@Ogid I like the looks of that list a bunch. How have you found Alan Reid? I like the look of a lot of his new keyword models.  I'm in the process of making an Agent 46 proxy to have some more teeth available.  One thing I did with my original which had a third changeling instead of the the ancient pacts was have the Doppleganger go forward the end of turn one. Start of turn two I carried over a 13 and drew a 12 of rams and then was able to take 6 hidden sniper first two from Lucius stoning for min 4.

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8 hours ago, Corwin said:

@Ogid I like the looks of that list a bunch. How have you found Alan Reid? I like the look of a lot of his new keyword models.  I'm in the process of making an Agent 46 proxy to have some more teeth available.

Glad you like it :). I need to test him, but for what I see in his card I like Alan. He isn't a pure beatstick like the Agent 47; but he has some punch on top of a lot of utility and synergy with NVB models.

Nepharious Pact is something I'm willing to pay 2 SS to get in other crews, and he bring it for free; that's a big plus. Diversion is a great ability, for example, he is one of the very few models able to slow down Archie (Diversion prevent him to jump and Ruthless doesn't bypass Intimidating Authority), but it's kind of a tie because he won't be able threat Archie (numbskull). Being a Henchman he has the SS to avoid being so easily killed, so is more reliable than a Investigator.

His Garrote is a bit worse than the Investigator and he lacks the free push when a marker drops, so it's slightly worse in the mele beating department; but it has an Execute trigger, something that may be useful in this crew with the Puppets forcing discards and "TALK" could give a lot of info. However "One more question" is amazing, slow, some damage and 2 very useful triggers (one of them may trigger an attack from a Mature for example) and Startle set up his own Garrote or activate the puppets abilities (Stolen Breath and ignoring :-flipto both duel and damage). Derriger isn't impressive, but having some ranged damage doesn't hurt either, maybe in 1 out of 20 games could be useful.  Boring Conversation is probably better for other crews, but it's also a very good ability, into models with very low Wp or in a crew with 2 or 3 False Withnessess that one may be very good.

Alan and Investigators could also work very well with a Cyclops+Lyssa in NVB. Cyclops may stagger in area with no resist possible. Lyssa has bring it and a Missery aura with Saggered, great for both adding some damage or move enemies into b2b with Alan/Investigators, plus the Ghost is sturdy for a 4SS model, especially near of a Pilar (created by the Cyclops).

8 hours ago, Corwin said:

One thing I did with my original which had a third changeling instead of the the ancient pacts was have the Doppleganger go forward the end of turn one. Start of turn two I carried over a 13 and drew a 12 of rams and then was able to take 6 hidden sniper first two from Lucius stoning for min 4.

That's a good move, but it's not something you can always count on because it relies in having a better hand than the other player (something not that hard with the amount of card draw of this crew) and the stat 5 hurts a bit, but some low df model could be death with using it...

For a Sniperish strategy in a Lucius Crew I'd go with Agent47, Angel Eyes, Vasilisa, 2 BBS, 1 Doll and 1 Changeling. As in the list I posted above, the aim is getting a Mature in turn 1 (and then grow the second Mature in turn 2). The focused will help a lot getting Severes with the rifle (and may enable a 24'' focused shot; very expensive but if the right target is killed it may be worth it), while also having dangerous/Resistant close combat models (2 Matures, Vasilisa, Stitched and Agent 47). Agent 47 copying a clockwork rifle with his Inhuman Psycology is something to fear (and he can be obeyed by Lucius). Matures may also reposition models with Fly with me to get the right angles to shoot (Bonus point: Angel Eyes is immune to Black Blood splash).

But this one would need to be tested a bit to see it it's reliable... In turn 1 it needs at least 3 masks (Matures), idealy 4 (Matures+Stitched) and there is less card draw than in the above list. In that case a way to balance it would be dropping 1 BBS to add a second changeling with pact I guess. In a pinch, the Agent may Mimic "Knife" and stonne the corpses... but that's very inefficient so it's better avoided.

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