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Lucius - what’s his trick.


Regelridderen

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56 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I’ve only done theorycrafting, but it seems like you want to use the ability where you discard to put the opponent at - flip to attack, given that you’re able to draw a bunch in this deck.

Two fun draw tricks:

Alison Dade’s blackmail ability resonates really nicely with Lucius: the opponent must choose whether to discard 0, 1, or 2 cards or give you pass tokens for every card they don’t. Then she has a built in :ToS-Tome: to trigger an effect where she can discard any number of pass tokens to draw a card. Since Lucius gives you a draw whenever ANYONE discards a pass token, you could draw four cards here. She can do it twice (or three times after auto-fast from the opponent revealing a scheme) although she needs two distinct targets to do so — stat 6 :ToS-Tome: vs WP within 6”. So now you’re looking at a potential top end of a 12-card draw out of Allison’s activation ... and that’s assuming you’re not just there with an elite crew and can discard your own pass tokens to double up in the first place.
 

The second trick may or may not work, but it’s obey stacking: you use Lucius to obey a lawyer to obey someone else. Maybe throw the doppelgänger or Agent 46 into the chain if you want (and string the order across the board a la telephone?). This relies a bit more on flips going your way ... but if you only want the card draw out of it and are treating the resulting action as a bonus, you can cycle a ton of cards. One note: longer chains take pacing, since mimic keeps the ability until the end phase but means those powerful figures have to go earlier.

Lucius only draws if the pass token is used to skip an activation. 

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2 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I’ve only done theorycrafting, but it seems like you want to use the ability where you discard to put the opponent at - flip to attack, given that you’re able to draw a bunch in this deck.

Two fun draw tricks:

Alison Dade’s blackmail ability resonates really nicely with Lucius: the opponent must choose whether to discard 0, 1, or 2 cards or give you pass tokens for every card they don’t. Then she has a built in :ToS-Tome: to trigger an effect where she can discard any number of pass tokens to draw a card. Since Lucius gives you a draw whenever ANYONE discards a pass token, you could draw four cards here. She can do it twice (or three times after auto-fast from the opponent revealing a scheme) although she needs two distinct targets to do so — stat 6 :ToS-Tome: vs WP within 6”. So now you’re looking at a potential top end of a 12-card draw out of Allison’s activation ... and that’s assuming you’re not just there with an elite crew and can discard your own pass tokens to double up in the first place.
 

The second trick may or may not work, but it’s obey stacking: you use Lucius to obey a lawyer to obey someone else. Maybe throw the doppelgänger or Agent 46 into the chain if you want (and string the order across the board a la telephone?). This relies a bit more on flips going your way ... but if you only want the card draw out of it and are treating the resulting action as a bonus, you can cycle a ton of cards. One note: longer chains take pacing, since mimic keeps the ability until the end phase but means those powerful figures have to go earlier.

Lawyer doesn't get you a card for obeying doppel or agent 46.  You have to cost less than the obeyed model.  That doesn't mean it isn't useful.  Sometimes you want to obey 46 more than once.

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11 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Is it really worth it, trying to chain activate via Lawyers, considering they need at least a 9, and even a Doppleganger Obey needs a 7?

I mean, you need to substitute for something better, without needing to cheat the duel for it to work. 

If you really want a second ap from the agent in the same activation you can obey a lawyer to obey him since you can't obey the same model directly twice in an activation. Might be pretty corner case but sometimes you really need to squeeze out that ap before something heals above htk or similar. Drawing the card for the lawyer is at least a consolation price that might net you a decent card. If you're targeting an investigator you get two. 

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23 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Is it really worth it, trying to chain activate via Lawyers

I only ever did it if I had cards in hand because it was funny, it was rarely efficient.

As @Ludvig says, it's going to be worth it to get one more AP through your output models occasionally, but it's probably not something you want to plan on doing.

 

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

Lawyer doesn't get you a card for obeying doppel or agent 46.  You have to cost less than the obeyed model.

Did this change late in/after the beta? I must have missed it.

It makes Investigators waaaaaaaay less appealing, and unfortuantely makes Dopps a lot more so.

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33 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If you really want a second ap from the agent in the same activation you can obey a lawyer to obey him since you can't obey the same model directly twice in an activation. Might be pretty corner case but sometimes you really need to squeeze out that ap before something heals above htk or similar. Drawing the card for the lawyer is at least a consolation price that might net you a decent card. If you're targeting an investigator you get two. 

The lawyer is a way to do it, but a bit expensive; it'd need a 9:mask (just a 9 if he was activated before that turn and got the suit). The changeling using Just Like You to copy "Issue Command" may do it with only a 7 while also bypassing the once per activation limitation.

13 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

Lawyers counts as cost 8 thanks to court authority, so doppel and investigators would draw cards. 

Investigators may draw, but Doppel is also 8, the cost needs to be higher.

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47 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The lawyer is a way to do it, but a bit expensive; it'd need a 9:mask (just a 9 if he was activated before that turn and got the suit). The changeling using Just Like You to copy "Issue Command" may do it with only a 7 while also bypassing the once per activation limitation.

Investigators may draw, but Doppel is also 8, the cost needs to be higher.

The :tomeis also important here, especially if you target an investigator. A lwayer who already activated can get the 14 :mask:tome needed to drop a scheme. If you can drop it, the investigator will give a free push, and probably another draw when he activates. That's conditionnal, but extremely efficient for  1 AP

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31 minutes ago, le_wahou said:

The :tomeis also important here, especially if you target an investigator. A lwayer who already activated can get the 14 :mask:tome needed to drop a scheme. If you can drop it, the investigator will give a free push, and probably another draw when he activates. That's conditionnal, but extremely efficient for  1 AP

Good points, this may be great to reposition investigators taking in count the range 0'' (drop behind them and push into b2b with something). Dropping a scheme in a place where matters with his one is hard and require an specific high suit in the hand, but it's definitely something to keep an eye on it (and as pointed, the investigator may "recicle" it)

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20 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

Or you can push him out and then charge, which situationally can be even better, or even push the opponent. The possibilities are endless.

Endless possibilities, but not that many 9 of :tome or :maskpossibles in hand. you must keep in mind the possibility, but not depend on this.

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3 hours ago, extremor said:

Has anyone tried „the judge“? Also a free action to give Staggered @ 12“ and do 2 damage as well....

and a decent melee action to copy... 

It could be worth a whirl, the judge is pricy but solid.

However mind the main problem with OOK henchmans/enforcers with Lucius is these can't be commanded by Lucius/Changelings directly, you'll need to use lawyers to give them extra actions per turn which is more expensive in both SS and cards (plus it also mess with your activation order because the Lawyer needs to activate first to get the suit) or it force a bubble because you need that model in range and at least Agent/Doppleganger+Changeling also there to copy his actions and issue 2 orders with Lucius... So I'm not sure how well it'd work tho, especialy being the judge better in close combat (it may get out of range easily and require you to move forward the whole bubble).

What about a Pathfinder? It's cheaper (6+1) and a minion (easy to command), he has a solid long range action worth to copy and may summon traps that stagger with also a decent range. The dissadvantage is you need 2 activations to stagger something if the trap is not there and the stat is only 5: Summon trap at 4'', around 1.2'' base, move+charge 6'', engagement 1'' =  around 12.2''; but the advantage is he may summons several traps that force enemies to discard cards to dissengage from them.

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For a mele beater with staggered yeah, the Jury is the one.

However mind the trigger isn't built-in (so you'll need to expend SS) and the coordinated attack is a trigger so the triggered attack cannot declare triggers (the Jury cannot get back the SS with his built in trigger, not sure if that was the plan). However the part of his kit that synergize better with the staggered is Alan's mele attack tho.

Definitely try it out to see how it works! But check also minion options that will synergize better with the crew: Reporter/Thalarian/Pathfinder for staggered or a Guardian as good target for a coordinated attack (greatsword will have the positive flip for damage) for example.

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To be honest I just wanted to play alan and investigator since the investigator draws a card if acrivated by alans trigger... 

yes it may cost a ss but in return you get an additional solid 3/4/5 attack and an additional Card. 

I havent found a way to play Lucius efficiently and am desperatly looking for „the clue“..! 😅

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25 minutes ago, extremor said:

To be honest I just wanted to play alan and investigator since the investigator draws a card if acrivated by alans trigger... 

yes it may cost a ss but in return you get an additional solid 3/4/5 attack and an additional Card. 

I havent found a way to play Lucius efficiently and am desperatly looking for „the clue“..! 😅

How to build a stong Lucius crew in three easy steps:

  1. Add Lucius and his totem.
  2. Add a bunch of stompybots.
  3. Replace Lucius and his totem with Hoffman and his totem.
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1 hour ago, extremor said:

To be honest I just wanted to play alan and investigator since the investigator draws a card if acrivated by alans trigger... 

yes it may cost a ss but in return you get an additional solid 3/4/5 attack and an additional Card. 

I havent found a way to play Lucius efficiently and am desperatly looking for „the clue“..! 😅

I need to test him yet and I'm not into Guild so I can't give you the perfect crew recipe, but maybe can point toward the right direction.

Lucius is a support master that will deal most of his damage using his mimics or minions, so it's important that the crew offer him that posibility, some top tier minions that he may command. His command may only target a model once per activation, but using the changeling he may obey the same model in his activation several times (while also drawing cards while doing so). Commanding minions or Elite/Mimic can be done with a 5 (Lucius) or a 7 (Changelings). However commanding an OOK non-minion require a 9 from an lawyer and a 11:mask from a Changeling. Inside the Keyword his investigators are the minions heavy hitters and the Agent47 his best offensive henchman, but they need some set up and are both squishy and close combat oriented. OOK models with ranged abilities or sturdy mele beaters may be used instead of these.

He also has a lot of scheme shenanigans both for denial and for easy scoring, and he has also a lot of card draw; plus thinking outside of the box she can make a lot of different playstiles abusing the mimics shenanigans.

I'm more into NBV and was able to elaborate more there, maybe that thread can give you some ideas: https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/147911-whats-up-with-lucius/

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6 minutes ago, Ogid said:

 However commanding an OOK non-minion require a 9 from an lawyer and a 11:mask from a Changeling. Inside the Keyword his investigators are the minions heavy hitters and the Agent47 his best offensive henchman, but they need some set up and are both squishy and close combat oriented. OOK models with ranged abilities or sturdy mele beaters may be used instead of these.

 

Changelings can't copy lawyers

The temptation with Lucius is to try to run him like last edition, where with thralls x2 and monster hunters x2 you could brawl with most other crews.  M3e lucius crews can't do that.  It's gonna take finesse, or at least a board that lets you gunline.

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Just now, 4thstringer said:

Changelings can't copy lawyers

Lol, that's what I get to write the posts too fast XD. You are right, changeling can only copy tacticals. The way would be copying Issue command from Lucius (7) to obey a Lawyer (9) so it may obey non-minion... probably too convoluted to be worth it.

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