Lore inconsistency with death marshalls?

[Astrella]

So I noticed that in ME3 Death Marshalls are undead, but recruiters even though they are death marshalls themselves are living? This seems like a bit of an odd inconsistency.

[solkan]

56 minutes ago, Astrella said:

So I noticed that in ME3 Death Marshalls are undead, but recruiters even though they are death marshalls themselves are living? This seems like a bit of an odd inconsistency.

It's Lichecraft.   

More seriously, it's a side effect of the magic that they use.  The previous occupant of the Judge position wore a mask because of the state his face was in.  And the effect was demonstrated to be strong enough that some death marshals are vulnerable to necromantic control (see the last Lady Justice vs. Nicodem encounter).

Death Marshal start out living.  They end up somewhat undead.

[Cursed25]

I thought it was the other way around??

 

If I remember right in the M2e lore entry of the lone marshall. He was a death marshal (undead) first and he manage to gain more control over his power and went back to is normal ''living'' self!

[Adran]

I'm fairly sure its bad for recruitment if the department that fights undead uses undead to hire more people.

So perhaps the recruitment is performed by people that are either naturally less corrupted by the magic, or perhaps they are prevented from using some of the magics that cause the undead process.

[Myyrä]

Recruiters also seem more powerful than regular death marshals, and many of the more powerful members of the office seem to be less affected by the necromantic energies than your average death marshal. The new guild book also hilights that there differences even between your foot-soldier level death marshals, when it comes to speed and effects of the decay process.

[Hagisman]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I'm fairly sure its bad for recruitment if the department that fights undead uses undead to hire more people.

So perhaps the recruitment is performed by people that are either naturally less corrupted by the magic, or perhaps they are prevented from using some of the magics that cause the undead process.

In "Post Mortem" (Tales of Malifaux 110), Governor-General Marlow calls out Lady J for using necromancy to create Death Marshals. But Lady J does counter that all Death Marshals volunteer to become undead. Justice and the old Judge both hint at the fact they went through a similar process, but are both living in the rules.

I agree with other people who commented before that once Death Marshals are able to train they go from sentient undead back to living. Though it's likely just cosmetic in regards to their appearance. 

[Ludvig]

Death marshals are just press ganged zombies but it's a well kept secret.

[4thstringer]

6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Death marshals are just press ganged zombies but it's a well kept secret.

Don't tell Marlow.

[Ludvig]

Just now, 4thstringer said:

Don't tell Marlow.

I'm sure we can come to an arrangement that guarantees my silence... For now...

[4thstringer]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

I'm sure we can come to an arrangement that guarantees my silence... For now...

I'm sure we can.  Come by Mr. Mattheson's office between the hours of 9-10 pm and I'm sure we can guarantee it.

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I'm sure we can.  Come by Mr. Mattheson's office between the hours of 9-10 pm and I'm sure we can guarantee it.

I thought I was speaking on his behalf! The intrigues within that office must be hell. 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Hagisman said:

In "Post Mortem" (Tales of Malifaux 110), Governor-General Marlow calls out Lady J for using necromancy to create Death Marshals. But Lady J does counter that all Death Marshals volunteer to become undead. Justice and the old Judge both hint at the fact they went through a similar process, but are both living in the rules.

I agree with other people who commented before that once Death Marshals are able to train they go from sentient undead back to living. Though it's likely just cosmetic in regards to their appearance. 

The most recently written material is in Above The Law, as far as I know.  

Quote

Functionally, the heavy clothing serves to shield the faces of the Death Marshals from view: nearly all of them have been corrupted by the malignant necromantic energies they employ.

The longer a Death Marshal serves, the more their flesh withers and their organs rot, until eventually, they have the appearance of a walking corpse.  Even those rare few Death Marshals who are immune to this creeping corruption tend to adopt the uniform of the others, if only out of solidarity for their less fortunate peers.

Some of the oldest Death Marshals have been so infused with necromantic energy that they have actually become undead themselves.  These veterans continue to work for the Guild despite their "condition", and the other Death Marshals do their part to ensure that the Guild as a whole does not realize how corrupted their peers have become.

Some of the Death Marshal effects described in the roleplaying game are temporary (the flaming skull head effect is described as basically a manifest power), but the overall process isn't just a temporary cosmetic thing.

Are there definitely undead Death Marshals?  Yes, officially.

When the still living ones are on the job, do they end up basically becoming undead temporarily?  The flaming skull head thing isn't just a cosmetic effect.

They are using Necromancy, and it's a blurry dividing line between living and undeath.  

Edit:  As far as why the Death Marshals were living in M2E and are undead in M3E, there probably is a lore shift going on.  I'm still waiting for my Guild book to arrive to see what the updated background entries say.

[Hagisman]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

Edit:  As far as why the Death Marshals were living in M2E and are undead in M3E, there probably is a lore shift going on.  I'm still waiting for my Guild book to arrive to see what the updated background entries say.

Based on how Marlow reacted it seems as though all Death Marshals are either Undead or somewhere between Living and Undead. I don't think the actual Death Marshals were Living, even though their cards said so in M2e. There is no hint that Lady J modified the process to make Death Marshals as far as I know. 

The hint that they are something more than normal living people is that Necromancers, aside from Karina, cannot raise undead Death Marshals.

[Cactus3D]

14 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

Based on how Marlow reacted it seems as though all Death Marshals are either Undead or somewhere between Living and Undead. I don't think the actual Death Marshals were Living, even though their cards said so in M2e. There is no hint that Lady J modified the process to make Death Marshals as far as I know. 

The hint that they are something more than normal living people is that Necromancers, aside from Karina, cannot raise undead Death Marshals.

This was wrote at ttb core book. They are ordinary human, but they have deep knowledge about necromancy. And can cast "aure", which make them like ghost rider.
What is more interesting, that death marshals couldn't be raise up and drop the corps. But at both 2th and 3rd Malifaux it's not as described

[Hagisman]

36 minutes ago, Cactus3D said:

This was wrote at ttb core book. They are ordinary human, but they have deep knowledge about necromancy. And can cast "aure", which make them like ghost rider.
What is more interesting, that death marshals couldn't be raise up and drop the corps. But at both 2th and 3rd Malifaux it's not as described

That's the tough part of balancing fluff with crunch. If all Death Marshals didn't drop Corpse markers they would be very unbalanced against crews that required them.  They are already getting a lot of buffs against Undead so adding that on would have to replace one of their other abilities.

[solkan]

19 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

Based on how Marlow reacted it seems as though all Death Marshals are either Undead or somewhere between Living and Undead. I don't think the actual Death Marshals were Living, even though their cards said so in M2e. There is no hint that Lady J modified the process to make Death Marshals as far as I know. 

The hint that they are something more than normal living people is that Necromancers, aside from Karina, cannot raise undead Death Marshals.

Well, keep in mind that we do have the Through The Breach rules to offer a second opinion, and don't just have to go from the Malifaux rules.   

In "Malifaux reality", the Death Marshals are probably a mixture of living trainees, undead veterans, and the reanimated "recruits" from the recruiters.  But the wargame mechanics have to make simplifications from "reality".

20 minutes ago, Cactus3D said:

This was wrote at ttb core book. They are ordinary human, but they have deep knowledge about necromancy. And can cast "aure", which make them like ghost rider.
What is more interesting, that death marshals couldn't be raise up and drop the corps. But at both 2th and 3rd Malifaux it's not as described

If you look at the Death Marshal Recruiter, the recruiters basically have all of the features that you're looking for in a "Death Marshal".

Mechanically, Grim Recruitment on the Death Marshal Recruiters means that the Death Marshals are the Marshal equivalent of Bayou Gremlins.  There's five models and an upgrade in Bayou where you take a fancy Gremlin and when it dies you get a Bayou Gremlin.

That's why I'm anxious to see whether the entries in the Guild book have been rewritten substantially compared to M2E.  Because there's some after-the-fact opportunity to retcon "M2E" Death Marshals back in between "M3E" Death Marshal and "M3E" Death Marshal Recruiter.

Disclaimer:  Or I'm just wishlisting how to get three editions of Death Marshal models onto the table together again.  

[Cactus3D]

6 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

That's the tough part of balancing fluff with crunch. If all Death Marshals didn't drop Corpse markers they would be very unbalanced against crews that required them.  They are already getting a lot of buffs against Undead so adding that on would have to replace one of their other abilities.

So, models with demise "didn't drop scrap or corps marker", constracts, spirit-like units - all their are also unbalanced? No, just lore and tabletop have old discrepancy and you try to find something new at this now.

[Cactus3D]

Quote

The hint that they are something more than normal living people is that Necromancers, aside from Karina, cannot raise undead Death Marshals.

This is because when he died, he turned into the dust. No corps = no raise.

[Hagisman]

13 minutes ago, Cactus3D said:

This is because when he died, he turned into the dust. No corps = no raise.

But Karina can raise them without a corpse?

[admiralvorkraft]

14 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

But Karina can raise them without a corpse?

Well Karina is supposedly the best Necromancer in Malifaux. She's just also kind of nuts... I think Tara says something along the lines of Karina having forgotten more about necromancy than Nicodem ever knew.

[solkan]

7 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

But Karina can raise them without a corpse?

Back when Karina was sane*, she was exceptional for being able to resurrect Death Marshals at all.

In the wargame (M2E), killed models drop corpse markers and various models discard corpse markers to summon models.  M2E Karina and Tara didn't use corpse markers to get playable undead Death Marshals.   M2E Tara could hire Death Marshals (with the Undead characteristic) because of how the various rules aligned (justified by Karina's abilities and the story line), and Karina when (with a lot of luck) summoned Death Marshals with the Undead characteristic.  The same way that Seamus in M2E could hire undead Showgirl models.

In Through the Breach (2nd edition, anyway), the ability that prevents a Death Marshal been reanimated is gained on the second level of Death Marshal, Pine Box is third level, and flaming skull head effect is fifth level.

M3E Karina was rewritten so that she doesn't do any of that in game any more, and Tara can't hire Death Marshals any more.

Disclaimer:  It's a pain in the butt trying to track down Tara and friends' M1 rules, I think because of how she was the result of an annual event.  

[Adran]

44 minutes ago, solkan said:

 

Disclaimer:  It's a pain in the butt trying to track down Tara and friends' M1 rules, I think because of how she was the result of an annual event.  

They didn't have M1 rules. Whilst the story took place in M1, we didn't get them until the M2e book. 

M1 death Marshall didn't drop corpse markers under the" never me" ability ( I think). 

[solkan]

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

They didn't have M1 rules. Whilst the story took place in M1, we didn't get them until the M2e book. 

Ah, okay.  I didn't realize that's what the real life timeline of occurrences between the event and Tara haven rules.  

I'm once again confronted by the fact that it's almost impossible to find any of the traces of the 2013 Dead of Winter event now, other than saying that there at one time were six faction stories being written for the event.   

 

[Adran]

I think that there were 6 stories, but they were written from the perspective of the faction that won that week. Tara was the outcast, who won the event, karina was the resser, the guild was a death Marshall ( who karina killed with a rock to the head then raised), the never born was a nephlim and arcanist was a miner if I remember. I can't remember if we had tt then, but if we did they had a sniper, who shot Tara I think

[Hagisman]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

I think that there were 6 stories, but they were written from the perspective of the faction that won that week. Tara was the outcast, who won the event, karina was the resser, the guild was a death Marshall ( who karina killed with a rocket to the head), the never born was a nephlim and arcanist was a miner if I remember. 

This almost lined up with the creation of the Lone Marshal, Hayreddin, and Anna Lovelace. If it weren't for the arcanist being a miner. If it was an outcast librarian that woul make sense.