What to bring - vs Shenlong

[Paddywhack]

It's very quiet on our forum, so here's a question for the week:

What and who would you bring if you knew you were facing ShenLong? He's a real piece of work, so how do you face him? 

If you want more info, let's say Turf War as the strat with a mix of schemes. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I suspect Kirai would be a really good pick against him. She doesn't have hard to wound in her crew, so is going to make his -'s become plusses not as big a deal.

[Ogid]

Shenlong into RES? Let me suggest some good choices:

Now seriously, Kirai is probably good; however the Charm Warders may have a field day versus that crew. Terrifying is probably another good answer, he can't tech versus both H2W/Manipulative and Terrifying at the same time.

[Paddywhack]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

Now seriously, Kirai is probably good; however the Charm Warders may have a field day versus that crew. Terrifying is probably another good answer, he can't tech versus both H2W/Manipulative and Terrifying at the same time.

True, but I've found terrifying to be more of a nuisance than anything else. I'm not saying it's bad, it's not, but it rarely really stops someone from doing something they want to do. Looking for models without HtW is a good idea though. 

OK - let's add a little more detail. You are the declare stage and she declares Shenlong as you declare McMourning... How do you minimize Shenlong's brutal rules? Go completely out of theme? Hire Kirai as a second master? 

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

OK - let's add a little more detail. You are the declare stage and she declares Shenlong as you declare McMourning... How do you minimize Shenlong's brutal rules? Go completely out of theme? Hire Kirai as a second master? 

I'm not that into RES... but let me think.

Kirai as a second master is a solid choice, Shenlong as leader can switch upgrades in the middle of a turn and gain Butterfly Jump that is annoying to deal with and monks have a ton of healing. Goryos have both Mark of Vengeance (only stat 5 tho) and Frenzied Charge, plus he hits like a truck with both Puncture and Flay (they can also kill any wandering more that get too close of them); Von Schtook seem hard to use as a second master but the "Academic Superiority" negate Shenlong tech. A few SS to keep the Doc safe would be needed.

But I don't think the double master is needed but dodging H2W models when possible is a good call. The Emissary is a good model, it has the poison theme, terrifying and no H2W. The zombie versatile theme also seems as a good choice, the zombies have poison and Asura/Mortimer aren't that vulnerable to him; plus Shenlong doesn't want to stop and play with the Zombies. The Doc and Sebastian may also use the corpse markers to summon flesh constructs and doggies (they are vulnerable to him but Shenlong have to go deep and can't kill everything). From OOK Anna Lovelace seem good too, "Hostile Work Enviroment" will deny any healing to the monk form the rest of the crew, isn't vulnerable to him and can use zombies as bombs.

IDK, just a few ideas; I'm not into RES so not sure what is viable and what's not.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I haven't played against Shen Long, but if already McMourning... I'd probably build a regular crew. Even if he hits you hard, you'll heal up. Unless he has condition removal? But no sense losing all your synergies due to one ability.

[Cursed25]

37 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I haven't played against Shen Long, but if already McMourning... I'd probably build a regular crew. Even if he hits you hard, you'll heal up. Unless he has condition removal? But no sense losing all your synergies due to one ability.

if Shenlong wants a model dead he will surely kill it! Habitually shenlong's crew will boost him turn 1 with 8-9 chi and a few focused and with this he will surely kill one model a turn! also don't forget TT have Tanuki to remove conditions so your high poison stack can be removed easily! Monks are one of the strongest crew in TT but they are glass canon! be ready to take a beating and capitalise on every mistake! Bait Shenlong to charge (and surely kill) a good model but not vital to you and after that attack him really hard! He will use a lot of chi to protect himself and once he does not have much of it he is way easier to manage! You will have to bait him because Shenlong has a lot of mobility and has a 12'' threat range with only one charge!

 

The rest of his crew will surely consist of sensei yu (helps stacks a lot of chi), low river monk (healer), tanuki (no dmg from poison, gives focused, condition removal and heal), wandering river monks (schemers) and fermented river monks (no dmg from poison and wants to get lots of it for tankiness) if you declare the Doctor!

[newsun]

While the idea you've already committed to McM puts an active constraint, is it maybe getter to start at the faction step and is there a master who is best into 10t to begin with? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, in that case...

Maybe go the grindy route then. Gravediggers + grave golem is a solid beater that is hard to take down, plus McMourning can stay in a safe position and spam summon flesh constructs. Archie is a very mobile beater and possibly hard for Shen long to chase down without fully committing? Kirai as a second master also seems good, forcing him to choose between masters to kill. If you play a defensive game, you may be able to countercharge and kill Shen Long as well?

But yes, ideally you deal with it at faction stage, but you can only own so many crews.

[newsun]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But yes, ideally you deal with it at faction stage, but you can only own so many crews.

Well I always assume all the models released unless someone states otherwise. Malifaux is so cheap compared to most model games.

[Paddywhack]

12 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you play a defensive game, you may be able to countercharge and kill Shen Long as well?

Usually sound, but man that Chi is a real pain. Shenlong can stack quite a bit and then is at +2 on every duel if he wants. Makes it very, very hard to even hit him. 

15 minutes ago, newsun said:

While the idea you've already committed to McM puts an active constraint, is it maybe getter to start at the faction step and is there a master who is best into 10t to begin with? 

Also a good question. After playing ShenLong I was thinking Kirai or VonSchtook might have stood a better chance, but that neg into a pos is a brutal ability, especially on a master with a 5 severe. I'm not sure Shenlong would ever get close enough to VonSchtook knowing what he does. His threat range is also ridiculous.

Kirai is definitely a good choice as she doesn't rely on HtW as much. Bringing an Onryo or Goryo to stop healing may start becoming a staple for my crews (ran into lots of heals with TT's). 

If you hear TT's what master do you reach for and why? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, also, soulstones reduction? If you're that worried about your master dying to him, bring a bigger cache to buy a few turns?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also Toshiro to summon Ashigaru, or snag some shieldbearers? Some solid defensive tech (can he ignore armor?), and can redirect attacks from another model if you want them protected.

Ashigaru 2" engagement range can also make things awkward, especially as McMourning can teleport out of melee. Can Shenlong?

[Sybarite]

The monk crew has very easy access to irreducible damage triggers.

[Ogid]

Shenlong is very dangerous, but he has to commit hard to get the kill; so yes, the key is making him pay for it. Some anti-support skills are also important because Monks are usually high in healing; if you can prevent the healing or the targeting, Shenlong will need to be much more careful. Summons seems as a good option because it'll increase the models that can attack him, forcing him to burn chi or take extra hits, without Chi he is a Df5 H2K model with 12 Wounds, that's not that hard to kill.

H2W need to be avoided versus him like the plague because it becomes "Easy to Wound" (he not only ignores it but he gets a free  to damage); letting him reaching easily 3 or 5 damage per hit.

Shenlong, @Maniacal_cackle,  has every trick in his book. He can turn  into (Fermented R Style), ignore extended reach or disengage while attacking in the same action (Fermented Style), can charge from 12'' away (Fermented R Style), can have a built in trigger for Irreductible damage or Onslaught (Low R Style), can gain Ruthless and generate 1 with severe damage (High R Style), can gain Buterfly jump to be harder to kill and may a Push (Wandering R Style), can even ignore H2K and Demise with his  and negate the gain of a condition discarding chi... If he wants to kill something, he will have the tools to do it.

So the Golem or the Ashigarus won't work (ignore demises and ignore extended reach), the extra cache will help (but with some crazy luck he could kill the doc with irreductible damage only), a shieldbearers could be interesting as bodyguard tho...

[Maniacal_cackle]

Ah yes, no to demise.

Ashigarus still seem like a great summon against him. He can only attack your master on a charge with falling rave kick, which you can redirect to the Ashigaru. The falling rave kick can't one shot the Ashigaru if it is at full health, and even if it isnt, wasting his attacks and chi on it is useful.

He seems like a squishy ball of death in fermented style. You just need to absorb the first charge, and then tear him apart. It creates an awkward situation for him to have to try to end in a defensive stance using tomes triggers. But if you keep him off his main attack, that is useful.

Seems like a lot of stopping power for a 5 stone summon.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I have yet to play against him and am learning as we go here, but seems to me like one of the keys to beating him is to make his styles awkward. Forcing him to cycle through styles is going to drain his resources pretty fast, especially if you're doing it with efficient summons.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also worth noting that minion swarming is likely the best way to kill Shenlong anyway.

He uses resources as defensive tech. To take down that type of model, you want swarms of attacks, not big beaters.

Toshiro + two grave diggers + McMourning is two summons that first turn, which gives you four minions to beat down with. Pretty efficient for 22 (+2 for suits) stones (assuming you're not playing wedge with immediate combat).

[Ogid]

Checking the profile, the Ashigarus does look legit versus him... Armor, no H2W and take the hit. And even if Toshiro is vulnerable to him, Shenlong needs an entire activation with a Severe hit (and Toshiro can use SS, so the assassination can fail) and even if he is killed, at least the Ashigaru and Reliquary stays in play...

[Paddywhack]

20 hours ago, Ogid said:

Shenlong needs an entire activation with a Severe hit

Shenlong will get severes, often several an activation with his +'s to Damage flips. 

Ashigaru are an interesting choice. From what I'm hearing from Shenlong players though is that they aren't really cycling upgrades often. With a stack of Chi making him Df7, he lasts quite a while. 

23 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, also, soulstones reduction? If you're that worried about your master dying to him, bring a bigger cache to buy a few turns?

I burned 5-6 last game and it didn't help at all... 

[Maniacal_cackle]

22 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Ashigaru are an interesting choice. From what I'm hearing from Shenlong players though is that they aren't really cycling upgrades often. With a stack of Chi making him Df7, he lasts quite a while. 

Yes, I imagine Shenlong players don't want to cycle upgrades, but that was the point about Ashigaru. They make it awkward for Shenlong (as he may have to spend tomes just to get the styles he wants against them).

As for the chi/df 7, I imagine you have to attrition his chi. Rather than hitting him with Archie, as Molly I'd try to hit him with two rabble risers. 6 attacks should drain chi pretty quickly. That's why I suggest minion swarms for him.

But I've not played him yet. I'll report back after facing him in a tournament 😜

Oh. Also on the TT forum he is very reliant on his other models. Archie should be able to leap in and destroy his squishy support models. If he tries to Shenlong Archie, just cat and mouse him and make him waste time running around the board. Any action he doesn't spend hitting something is good.

[newsun]

One tactic against him that can be situationally useful is when they have cheated already to hit you is to cheat really low to put them on positives which becomes negatives. Won't always come up, but it's something to do with low cards.

 

He might also end up being one of those models you have to let run amuck and simply focus on your schemes and pick off the rest of his crew.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Great point @newsun. Never lose sight of objectives.

 

[Wyamphri]

Sensei Yu is very important for chi generation, killing him can cripple the rest of the crew pretty hard as they are quite squishy without chi. Shenlong is pretty self sufficient after the initial load up I've found, so I think it's safe to say, you're just gonna have to let him do his thing, but ofcourse, don't make it easy 

[Tapdancer]

Speaking as an actual Shenlong player a number of things work.

Kiria is the most challenging her vengeance ability really stacks up particularly as the onslaught trigger is just as important (it generates Chi rather than consumes it) as the irreducible trigger.   Same is true of her favourite secondary beater Yasanori that depends on onslaught and hates chip damage.  THis is also true of terrifying models, it matters, draining hand of of low cards and moderates works  because of how Drunken Style works.

Shenlong hates the totem outside of reckoning, such a waste of resource if the bloody thing pops right back up after killing.

Any model that prevents attacks generated by charges and or retargets attacks, Ashagari have been super effective in disrupting a Shenlong.

Kill the scheme runners and totems.  I have lost games whilst murdering a crew because they have sacrificed their beaters  to kill my point scoring minions.

Don't be scared of the Charm Warders they are a great model for 7 points  but they have to be up front / in melee to be truly dangerous to a summoner and they have nothing but chi to keep them alive.

Shenlong will have ways round most counter picks but remember all of those way round will be way less efficient than Drunken River Style spamming onslaught/irreducible

I have been beaten by a number of times by Resser masters, Kiri, Von Stuck and Yan Lo (That was in TT but I believe the approach was transferable).  It always been because of smart picks, smart positional play and making that game winning choice when it matters.