Mut Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, 74legion said: Mask is not embedded and have to spend a card (it may not be or it would be a pity, or a stone shower for masks). Yesterday I played against Shenlong - it resets the Chi and not getting the condition. PAIN. And there's Lynch who can't get stunned. So having inhuman reflexes is helpful against face-slapping fans. No but she can give it to herself with Despair's Influence for the entire turn, thereby guaranteeing it for all Df/Wp duels. That's a pretty standard play for her once she gets into the fray. Inhuman is meh, it can be great on the right models but I agree with the sentiment that solid play lessens the need to spend two stones on this. Ancient Pact is a great upgrade for certain crews, not so good with others, and can win you some games of Corrupted Idols so I tend to run two of it in those lists. +2 Initiative is big. Eldritch Magic sees play against Kaeris, and maybe McMourning or Brewmaster. That's it. Pandora being able to pull all burning and injured off a model for one action is pretty devastating to a Kaeris crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 hour ago, 74legion said: Mask is not built and have to spend a card (it may not be or it would be a pity, or a stone shower for masks). Yesterday I played against Shenlong - it resets the Chi and not getting the condition. PAIN. And there's Lynch who can't get stunned. So having inhuman reflexes is helpful against face-slapping fans. Well, Shenlong is a case apart XD. It depends on who you are going to face of course, in TT the Masked Agent has an ability that disable defensive triggers; so any TT master may ignore her trigger. In those cases IR could be considered (but anything that make Shenlong use chi is welcome tho). As said above the mask isn't built in, but she may use "Despair's Influence" in herself and discard a mask to activate her "defense and utility mode", gaining a mask in all her duels until the end phase; depending on who she is facing it may be worth it. If you plan to use this but you don't want to use her APs or activate her early, you may include a Changeling (who can copy tactical actions from masters). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LexLock Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 Inhuman Reflexes is also good for moving bubbles around and discouraging enemies from taking potshots and it really neuters lures. Pandora is already pretty safe against potshots with her terrifying 13 and giving out stunned on a trigger, she also has no melee attack to use with blade rush (although she can still technically charge), so she's probably the worst master in faction to take inhuman reflexes on. Still I'm taking it if I'm dealing with something killy with assassinate in the pool, or if I want my opponent to hate Pandora even more than usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 If trying to protect Pandora, Inhuman reflexes seems better on the poltergeist. As long as it is near her, it makes terrifying duels super hard. So extra survivability on the geist seems like a higher priority? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunagami Posted November 19, 2019 Report Share Posted November 19, 2019 12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said: If trying to protect Pandora, Inhuman reflexes seems better on the poltergeist. As long as it is near her, it makes terrifying duels super hard. So extra survivability on the geist seems like a higher priority? Hmmmm, I like this idea...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted November 19, 2019 Report Share Posted November 19, 2019 While the idea of IR in Poltergeist could be good in certain scenarios, don't forget he is a enforcer with df4, 5Wds and Incorporeal. It's not hard to one shot (something that render Butterlfy Jump useless), even with an sniper (any Clockwork Rifle with a Critical Strike/Swift action trigger will do the trick) and with Sz3 and 50mm it's also hard to hide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regelridderen Posted November 19, 2019 Report Share Posted November 19, 2019 I agree with @Ogid... The poltergeist is so easy to kill, that it's best defence is positioning. Keeping it unaccessible, via other models, placing it in Hazardous terrain etc. I'd rather spend those 2 stones on a stronger offence and force opponents to make a hard choice, and risk a skinning knife in the back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullfrog Posted November 23, 2019 Report Share Posted November 23, 2019 I would say to give sorrows a few attempts. I find having just 1 sorrow is not very useful but having 3 sorrows has worked really well for me. I often view them as tar pits to tangle up the stuff that I do not want my core crew (Pandora, Candy, Baby Kade and Teddy) to be dealing with until I have killed the current threat that I want to take out. I often find myself using lures or all the 2" pushes from Misery to suck something into my area of death. I often will have two of them as a pair to tank something coming into my core crew for a turn and send the third one to help or out to the other side to tangle with a scheme runner. Do not forgot they have the mask trigger built in to their attack to really the 1/2/4 is a 2/3/5 attack (assuming the enemy is stunned) and I usually just do a focus attack to help with the damage flip. I have caught my opponent off guard a few times with a very late turn sorrow attack after they used all their cards to keep their other models alive from the Baby Kade onslaught. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LexLock Posted November 23, 2019 Report Share Posted November 23, 2019 Also life leech is so good. Unregistered damage is really nice to have, especially on a cheap model like the sorrow. Just throw yourself onto an already activated model and you can end up doing pretty decent damage with just your auras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regelridderen Posted November 23, 2019 Report Share Posted November 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, LexLock said: Also life leech is so good. Unregistered damage is really nice to have, especially on a cheap model like the sorrow. Just throw yourself onto an already activated model and you can end up doing pretty decent damage with just your auras. Life Leech is amazing. Not least on how quickly it can bring a wounded sorrow back to full health. Having two Sorrows just linger on the outskirts of a brawl does a lot simply via Glimpse and Leech, allowing the Sorrows to just move and scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74legion Posted November 23, 2019 Report Share Posted November 23, 2019 If sorrow is to consider only a couple of abilities and attacks, you might think that it is good. But it is not. Instead of 2 sorrows I will take 2-3 pupae for 3 ss. with stealth. And you can compare 2 things with 1 Siren Bowman or Carver. The choice is obvious. I look at the Aversion card and think why do I need this for 6 ... . I look and cry .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted November 23, 2019 Report Share Posted November 23, 2019 It depends on the role you want for that model. Only for schemes? Dolls for 3 SS are a good deal. For schemes but also able to stand his ground, sturdy and cheap? Sorrow. Need someone to wreck face? Carver/Teddy... Sending a doll to wreck face is going to go south, send Carver/Teddy to scheme is very ineficient. If the only thing that mattered were how powerful the models are, we would all play with Triple master plus rider. A sorrow is able to take similar costed models on, and he may make other scheme runners more ineficient stunning them. Why would you send a more expensive model to do a job that he can do for 5SS? Plus he brings a cheap Misery aura around. Aversion is a position control model. F Reminder reposition friendly models. Antipathy is like a poor's man disguised (a model charges, if it fails the TN13, it get pushed before making the attack) and increase the push of friendly Miseries. Terrorize push some other model back his entire Mv which is like draining an order; and Scatter for her may be a 6'' push (and the first 3'' have no TN). Taking in count several schemes rely in positioning and the other player may rely in having some models in range to help others, that's her role; mess all that up. I'm not sure how good they are, but they have a clear role. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted November 23, 2019 Report Share Posted November 23, 2019 Part of it is that 5-6 stone models are just not great in general. People buy packs of 3 and hope to be able to take three of a model into a game, but really you're probably only going to ever take 0-2 of a model. 5-6 stone models just aren't great to spam IMO. They usually fill a niche and so you snag some as needed. Sorrows and Aversions definitely bring tools to the table (even if you just need a model that can bonus action stun, move, interact). Even Stitched Together, arguably our best 5-6 stone minion, I rarely hire more than one of them. So I think part of it is perspective. If you're expecting a minion you can load up on, 5-6 stone minions are going to disappoint. But they provide good action efficiency for cost, and usually come with a trick or two. You can often find a bit of space in your crew for 1-2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagi21 Posted November 24, 2019 Report Share Posted November 24, 2019 7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said: 5-6 stone models just aren't great to spam IMO. They usually fill a niche and so you snag some as needed. Sorrows and Aversions definitely bring tools to the table (even if you just need a model that can bonus action stun, move, interact). Even Stitched Together, arguably our best 5-6 stone minion, I rarely hire more than one of them. Necropunks and Crooligans disagree lol Also I run 2-3 Stitched in a dreamer puppet list. Gamble is OP man XD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted November 24, 2019 Report Share Posted November 24, 2019 29 minutes ago, Nagi21 said: Necropunks and Crooligans disagree lol Also I run 2-3 Stitched in a dreamer puppet list. Gamble is OP man XD Crooligans are great, but are 4 stones. It is the 5-6 stone models that are a bit more suss. Necropunks are arguably one of the best 5-6 stone scheme runners in the game by all accounts, and even those often pros in the States only take 1 of in their typical list (sometimes 2) for Transmortis. Stitched Together - you're right, it actually is viable to run solid crews with even 3 of them. But by and large, I think it'd be extremely rare to find 3 or even 2 copies of any given 5-6 cost minion in a top tier list. Most of those models aren't meant to be spammed. A single sorrow feels like it brings something pretty good to the table. But if you're running 3 sorrows and 3 aversions, you're probably going to feel like both models are weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted November 24, 2019 Report Share Posted November 24, 2019 There are thematic or list focused in one theme where multiple models of one kind may fit. His puppet/nightmare list may be an example. Stitched is the only puppet/nightmare model so for a crew promoting that synergy, 1-2 (and summon the rest ASAP) or 3 of them are a solid pick. However in Nightmare Stitched is the only minion with a decent damage output; Dreamer doesn't have Jogorumos, Elementals, Goryos or Executioners. His 7SS minion is more a tarpit than a damage dealer and the 5SS minion has min 1 damage and it's not hard to kill; so it's logical they are spammed in his crew when damage is needed. In NVB, 2 BBS are worth it even OOK to grow 2 matures. I could see 3 Waldgeist in a thematic list with Bad Juju and the Emissary or Gigants in a list around pilar spam... but in NVB the other 6SS models are probably not that worth spamming. However in other factions there are pretty good 6SS models to spam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 Just to make sure, Lyssa and Aversion are not released yet, right? I have a tournament in Feb and you can proxy unreleased models, so I might plan to do that. In which case I'll have to start practicing them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagi21 Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said: Just to make sure, Lyssa and Aversion are not released yet, right? I have a tournament in Feb and you can proxy unreleased models, so I might plan to do that. In which case I'll have to start practicing them! They are indeed not released yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mut Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 7 hours ago, Nagi21 said: They are indeed not released yet. And at the rate Wyrd is going lately, we may not see them until next December Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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