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Regelridderen

Hard counters

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So sometimes a counter to an opponents strategy is just to have the right model. Such as how in Guild a Death Marshall Recruiter can counter Misaki’s bury sheananigans. 

So what hard counters have you discovered? Which aces do you like to pull, when an opponent declares for certain Masters?

 

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Iggy with Eldrich magic upgrade is good againts Kaeris to get rid of both burning and injured with Dispel. (You remove the burning with oppurtunists when using dispel magic to remove injured).

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9 minutes ago, Hawkoon said:

Iggy with Eldrich magic upgrade is good againts Kaeris to get rid of both burning and injured with Dispel. (You remove the burning with oppurtunists when using dispel magic to remove injured).

Also true of Pandora in general against condition crews. If you give her Eldritch Magic she can handle any offensive conditions or buff conditions with ease.

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I don't think NVB has that many hard counters, but there are ways to adapt, from the top of my head:

Woes in general are models to consider versus crews that rely on states (or if you think something like a lot of focused pulse is going your way), as noted above with the eldritch upgrade if you need the condition removal in your own models.

It's worth to note models with :+flipto damage flips (or with flay) that may get around hard to wound with a Focused (Rider, Wrath, Rougarous), Hinamatsu could also work here with her onslaught and flurry.

Doppleganger is a solid model, and to consider if you think that you are going to need an extra of something that other model brings (double twist reality versus armor spam for example). Angel Eyes is also to consider if there is a high priority suportish model you need out of the ecuation asap (She is a henchman so she can stone the trigger she needs and her 6 stat is high for a sniper, but she needs some Focused badly to perform well)

The emissary and the rider are unimpeded, so nice models versus severe terrain spam. Nephillims or Nightmares are also good versus these with all the flight and incorporeal.

The upgrades are something to consider too. IR is very good, specially versus attack spam (onslaught, flurry...), Eldritch is a bit expensive but that dispel magic is worth it in some match ups.

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Some NB weaknesses...

Dreamer - to some degree, he will be countered by blast damage. He protects himself by redirecting attacks to his neighbours, which means that he is vulnerable to you hitting those neighbours and spreading the damage with blast.

Zoraida - countered by double or triple master (since Masters are a hard counter to being obeyed).

Titania - incorporeal is a soft counter, since she gets so much free severe terrain.

Some strengths/ability to counter others...

Pandora (and co) - hard counters to all sorts of things.

Serena Bowman - counter to condition-based crews, and also crews that like to spread out their damage (like all healers).

Serena/Teddy/Chompy/Mature Neph/everything with a 2" engagement range - many crews struggle with two inch engagement ranges.

The obvious ones like Ruthless, etc.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Zoraida almost single-handedly counters both Plant explosives and Corrupted idols?

Yes, but the thread isn't as much about choosing a master, but if you reach for any particular tools, whenever your opponent has declared his?

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On 10/10/2019 at 12:28 AM, Regelridderen said:

So sometimes a counter to an opponents strategy is just to have the right model. Such as how in Guild a Death Marshall Recruiter can counter Misaki’s bury sheananigans. 

So what hard counters have you discovered? Which aces do you like to pull, when an opponent declares for certain Masters?

 

I don't plan around certain masters, but factions as a whole, since that's what you end up with in competitive malifaux i.e. tournaments.  So with that in mind see below (also I'm not including Marcus as he kinda runs similar to Nekima with a few tweaks, and I've less matchup experience with him, and Lucius is... really not neverborn anyway right now):

Guild:  Into guild there are no particularly HARD counters, but you have to be aware of what the strat and scheme pool will look like to avoid ending up in a bad matchup.  For instance on a corrupted idols game is likely going to run into Nellie or Lucius, which means you may have to deal with your own models murdering yourself (bad for nekima, meh for Pandora).  The hardest counter in the matchup from what i've seen is a tie between Perdita vs Nekmia (you gotta be on point with your positioning and don't have much room for error), and Sonnia vs Titania (Sonnia will end up negating most of your concealment if you're on fire... and you will be on fire).  Overall I've had moderate success overall into guild even in some questionable matchups.

Resurrections:  This one is pretty tricky.  I would avoid Dreamer into Ressers, but the neverborn ladies don't have a particularly fun time into a lot of ressers because of the issue that there are so MANY models to kill, and they usually have hard to wound on most things.  Seamus isn't a bad matchup into most, but the constant repositioning on him makes slow crews like Pandora suffer in a lot of pools.  Von Schtook is also one that would be bad to bring pandora into, but I find that Nekima can play into him pretty well from a point scoring standpoint (usually...).  This is also the reason I wouldn't bring dreamer blind.  Academic Zeal works on your nightmares regardless of how cheap and easy they are to kill, and unless you're playing into reckoning (which I don't usually like dreamer into anyway), you're gonna have a bad time.  I couldn't tell you about Yan Lo cause I've not seen anyone use him (at least in this faction), and Reva is workable with all of them.  McMourning and Jack are good matchups to bring pandora into (Jack has higher wp but his minions are free game, and the condition removal makes up for it), but getting bit with Von Schtook leads to "Does he know that I know that he knows that I know" territory of analysis.  Kirai... ehh... I don't love or hate anything in particular about her matchup more than the others.   It's ressers... it's gonna suck regardless.

Arcanists:  Fun territory time.  Marcus is a non-factor as he is straightforward and there isn't anything that particularly counters someone else.  It's all about the minions he brings on this one and at that point you're committed.  Ironsides is a rough time for Nekima, as 1v1 she will break you, so if you pick into that matchup you're going to need to find some range to make that work (I recommend Zoraida as a second master for that).  Sandeep is the same issue with ressers in that you'll be dealing with 14 or 15 models around turn 2 & 3.  I don't like Titania in that matchup... or at least a normal Titania (you'll likely need a rider in this one).  Pandora is great vs Kaeris and Sandeep (and with Eldritch magic any of them can make things work vs either... somewhat), because of constant condition removal, but you have to watch for Collette because Pandora doesn't move much to react to the everchanging board state that is the star theatre.  Mei Feng I couldn't tell you cause I've literally never seen her played... ever.  Hoffman... I've seen played, no experience playing vs him though.  Joss is bad.  Seriously whatever gets near Joss is going to die so if you bring slow movers or Nekima... be careful.  As for Rasputina... Pandora is good because poltergeist removes pillars aoe, but you have to be aware of the irreducible damage on the blasts (no incorporeal).  I like everyone into Raspy really, some more than others.  

Neverborn:  Hmmm... Each matchup in here can (mostly) be played around, but you have to be aware of a second master zoraida if you bring heavy beaters.  Also Zoraida has issues vs Titania because the concealment of trees can force negative obey flips (no cheating), so something to remember.

Outcasts:  So... yea... oh boy.  Jack we already covered.  Zipp into Nekima is hilarious but I'd play it.  Pandora into Viktoria lacks mobility hard, and then there's the Zipp and Hamelin that cause problems (why Hamelin is wp 7 and Pandora 6 I'll never f***ing know...), and Parker is better at most schemes she wants to play into so... yea don't really bring pandora unless you know it's something you personally like.  Nekima plays well into a lot of this... although Tara causes trouble removing all her good models so keep your soulstones close with that.  Titania is a poor choice into Leveticus but you can (kinda) predict when he'll show up based on the strat/scheme pool.  Just leave the knights at home when he comes out to play if you get caught in that one.  Dreamer is good into a lot of these matchups because he can match the mobility of most of them, and hits pretty hard, but you have to be careful vs Parker because he will EAT YOUR SOUL(stones) ALIVE!!!!

Ten Thunders:  Ok so here's the thing.  I like Nekima into every single one of these matchups (some more than others), except Misaki.  And I really, REALLY don't like Nekima into Misaki.  If you get caught on the wrong end of the Katanaka gunline... I really hope that table is bolted down and you know the cover rules like the back of your hand.  Good luck to ya.  That being said, Titania is good vs most of them (no idea on Yan Lo), particularly if the enemy isn't careful and overestimates his position (although this is not a given with Shen Long as that's more or less where he wants to be).  Asami you'll want to bring the big boys as 3 Jorogumo is a non-zero possibility within the first two or three turns.  Pandora has her usualy mobility limiting issues so unless the strat scheme pool is extremely kind, i'd leave her at home.  Zoraida and Dreamer are both good in most of these as they are either mobile enough to keep up with the enemy or able to use their own plans against themselves, so no issues with either of them.  

Bayou:  Leave pandora at home (noticing a theme?).  The reason here is very simple.  You will lose to bushwackers and rooster riders.  If you know going in it's going to be Zoraida bayou then you can bring her, but if there is the slightest chance of there being Mah Tucket, don't even consider her.  Bayou games need mobility more than anything else.  Nekima can work vs a lot of those, because the bayou is full of corpses, particularly Somer (don't dive the pigapult... it's a trap).  My bayou 3e experience is pretty limited due to lack of play (thankfully...), but Pandora blind is impossible as far as I can tell.

 

Overall our major counters are more models, and guns... lots of guns.  Also while I said Misaki was bad but Perdita wasn't, that was in the grand scheme of looking at the counter matchups in the faction.  Perdita is pretty based on strat/scheme (not that she's bad, but there are better choices into certain pools on paper), which allows you to somewhat predict her, while Misaki is very good in most if not all due to the mix of hypermobility and murder, which leads to surprise moments.

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