Aversion: Antipathy vs charge

[Trekin]

What happens if my opponent charges int the antipathy aura?
Charge reads "Push this model up to it Mv in inches. It may then take a [melee] action that does not count against it's Action limit.
Antipathy reads "After an enemy model ends a move withing 4in of this model, after resolving the current action, the enemy model most pass a TN 13 WP duel..."

Charge itself is an action. But it's a push followed by a melee action. 
Would the WP duel trigger after the push but before the melee action? Or after the charge has completely resolved?

 

[Adran]

The attack in a "charge" is a new action and will occur after all things relating to the charge action are complete. So the apathy duel and push will all occur after the push but before the attack. The section in the rules is actions caused by effects I think. 

[solkan]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

The attack in a "charge" is a new action and will occur after all things relating to the charge action are complete. So the apathy duel and push will all occur after the push but before the attack. The section in the rules is actions caused by effects I think. 

It's Actions Generated by Effects, on the page before the Detailed Timing chart.

Side note, if anyone is looking at the rules, there's a separate, partially redundant callout for Actions Generated by Triggers.  And partially redundant note on the bottom of the Detailed Timing chart.  I've lost count of the number of times that I've looked for that section, found the others, and become unsure whether the other section really existed.  😟

[Ogid]

A follow up question here. Antipathy state the push is ignored by the same ability of friendly models... is that a convoluted way to say multiple Antipathy auras do stack? Hence, if you charge into 3 Aversions and fail the 3 Wp flips you could be pushed half table away XD?

It seems to be the intention: If the push is ignored, that aura isn't changing any other game state in that model, so the model is not considered affected by it according to the aura's rules.

[Mycellanious]

14 minutes ago, Ogid said:

A follow up question here. Antipathy state the push is ignored by the same ability of friendly models... is that a convoluted way to say multiple Antipathy auras do stack? Hence, if you charge into 3 Aversions and fail the 3 Wp flips you could be pushed half table away XD?

It seems to be the intention: If the push is ignored, that aura isn't changing any other game state in that model, so the model is not considered affected by it according to the aura's rules.

It means the opposite. It means the push from Aversion doesnt count as a Move for the Purposes of Aversion, so you specifically cant chain them. You csn however, Aversion someone into a Pyre marker, have Iggy push them from Misery, then Aversion them a 2nd time...

[Maniacal_cackle]

37 minutes ago, Ogid said:

A follow up question here. Antipathy state the push is ignored by the same ability of friendly models... is that a convoluted way to say multiple Antipathy auras do stack? Hence, if you charge into 3 Aversions and fail the 3 Wp flips you could be pushed half table away XD?

It seems to be the intention: If the push is ignored, that aura isn't changing any other game state in that model, so the model is not considered affected by it according to the aura's rules.

Are you thinking of the aura rules about not stacking?

The aura rules don't allow stacking for the same event. One change in game state at a time.

The aura rules DO allow chaining. If you stun a model, remove the stun, and then stun it again... Misery can hit it twice.

With the aversion, if it didn't say it can't happen off others, each movement would be a separate game effect and potentially cause another aversion effect.

Next question: if antipathy hits a model in base contact... The model moves three inches and ends within the antipathy aura...  Does it happen again?

Can a single charge cause double antipathy from the original target?? It only excludes other friendly models.

[Maniacal_cackle]

And also I assume if you use misery to move the opponent into antipathy, they then have to make a willpower duel to not move further??

Neat crew.

[Ogid]

52 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

It means the opposite. It means the push from Aversion doesnt count as a Move for the Purposes of Aversion, so you specifically cant chain them. You csn however, Aversion someone into a Pyre marker, have Iggy push them from Misery, then Aversion them a 2nd time...

Ok, this makes sense, this rule avoid Antipathy to throw a model into another antipathy to chain trigger them.

However my point is the rules in the pg 30 say that the auras with the same name don't affect the same model if they are going to change any game state. If an Antipathy aura ignore the push of other Antipathy auras, then those other auras aren't counted as being affected the model... Unless making a Wp13 duel with no effect (for that aura) is "changing its game state"

34 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Next question: if antipathy hits a model in base contact... The model moves three inches and ends within the antipathy aura...  Does it happen again?

Can a single charge cause double antipathy from the original target?? It only excludes other friendly models.

I should be missing something because It don't see the rule that stops the aura for triggering itself, but I don't think that's intended (this will create an infinite loop if the model would be pushed into impassable terrain for example)... 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

And also I assume if you use misery to move the opponent into antipathy, they then have to make a willpower duel to not move further??

This one seems correct.

 

We are getting something wrong here... could someone break this aura down?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think the ability will need to be errataed to exclude any friendly rather than other friendly, so an Aversion can't self chain.

Unless we missing something?

[solkan]

It's not quite an infinite loop (it just lasts until the model passes the Wp duel), but it's still a pretty extreme situation.

Better demonstration setup:

• Use Iggy to drop a Pyre marker someone convenient, even if it's just right next to Iggy.
• Move the Aversion up and use Scatter to Push the enemy model into the Pyre Marker, stopping base contact with the obstacle.
• That sets off Antipathy and you start the 0" Push loop, gaining Burning until you pass the Wp duel.
• After you finish all of the Antipathy pushes, then the Hazardous Terrain effect triggered by Scatter gets resolved.

I'm not sure how much work it is for Iggy to get Burning +3 on a model to get that Pyre Marker on the table.  

Edit:  Although, wait a second.  The limit on Hazardous Terrain is "it suffers the effects of the Hazardous Terrain after the current Action or Ability is resolved (to a maximum of once per Action or Ability)."  Note that in "Once Per Effects", it says "A model can only take an Action or Ability that is once per Activation once during an Activation."  So I think "once per Ability" means the same "once during each Ability".

The timing for the Antipathy pushes is tail recursive (the happen after the push, so each new instance of Antipathy is resolving during the Antipathy).

• Antipathy.  Model is pushed
  • Antipathy.  Model is pushed
    • Antipathy.  Model is pushed
      • Antipathy.  Model is pushed.
        • Antipathy.  Passes the damned duel.
      • Hazardous Terrain effect resolves.
    • Hazardous Terrain effect.  But it has already resolved once during this ability.
  • Hazardous Terrain effect.  But it has already resolved once during this ability.
• Hazardous Terrain effect.  But it has already resolved once during this ability.

I'm not sure that this is the right way to resolve it, but honestly I'm not sure how "once per Action or Ability" is supposed to work.  

[Ogid]

5 hours ago, solkan said:

It's not quite an infinite loop (it just lasts until the model passes the Wp duel), but it's still a pretty extreme situation.

Good point! the Wp roll may break the loop. But it's still recursive, so you may push a model 6'' away in the right circunstances lol.

However the catch is the ability isn't a may, it's a must. So the other player may take advantage of that to flee from the woes bubble if he is in problems (moving in a position to be pushed 6'' in the direction he wants and even cheating to fail the duels)... maybe that's why pandora doesn't like them in the fluff XD.

5 hours ago, solkan said:

The timing for the Antipathy pushes is tail recursive (the happen after the push, so each new instance of Antipathy is resolving during the Antipathy).

I'd say it's consecutive; it happens after the push and at that point the Antipathy effects just got resolved.

Antipathy(triggered): Wp duel fail -> Push (end)+Hazardous. Antipathy(triggered): Wp duel fail -> Push (end)+Hazardous...

10 hours ago, Ogid said:

However my point is the rules in the pg 30 say that the auras with the same name don't affect the same model if they are going to change any game state. If an Antipathy aura ignore the push of other Antipathy auras, then those other auras aren't counted as being affected the model... Unless making a Wp13 duel with no effect (for that aura) is "changing its game state"

I have still have doubts about this part tho; Do Antipathy auras stack?

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, solkan said:

It's not quite an infinite loop (it just lasts until the model passes the Wp duel), but it's still a pretty extreme situation.

Better demonstration setup:

• Use Iggy to drop a Pyre marker someone convenient, even if it's just right next to Iggy.
• Move the Aversion up and use Scatter to Push the enemy model into the Pyre Marker, stopping base contact with the obstacle.
• That sets off Antipathy and you start the 0" Push loop, gaining Burning until you pass the Wp duel.
• After you finish all of the Antipathy pushes, then the Hazardous Terrain effect triggered by Scatter gets resolved.

I'm not sure how much work it is for Iggy to get Burning +3 on a model to get that Pyre Marker on the table.  

Edit:  Although, wait a second.  The limit on Hazardous Terrain is "it suffers the effects of the Hazardous Terrain after the current Action or Ability is resolved (to a maximum of once per Action or Ability)."  Note that in "Once Per Effects", it says "A model can only take an Action or Ability that is once per Activation once during an Activation."  So I think "once per Ability" means the same "once during each Ability".

The timing for the Antipathy pushes is tail recursive (the happen after the push, so each new instance of Antipathy is resolving during the Antipathy).

• Antipathy.  Model is pushed
  • Antipathy.  Model is pushed
    • Antipathy.  Model is pushed
      • Antipathy.  Model is pushed.
        • Antipathy.  Passes the damned duel.
      • Hazardous Terrain effect resolves.
    • Hazardous Terrain effect.  But it has already resolved once during this ability.
  • Hazardous Terrain effect.  But it has already resolved once during this ability.
• Hazardous Terrain effect.  But it has already resolved once during this ability.

I'm not sure that this is the right way to resolve it, but honestly I'm not sure how "once per Action or Ability" is supposed to work.  

Why are you applying the Antipathy push nested. This is sequential effects. Fully resolve the initial one before moving onto any additional effects.

 

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

I have still have doubts about this part tho; Do Antipathy auras stack?

No. Do you also want to try and argue that if a model pushes into two Antipathy auras and passes the first duel they'd have to take another duel since they weren't pushed?

[solkan]

3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why are you applying the Antipathy push nested. This is sequential effects. Fully resolve the initial one before moving onto any additional effects.

I didn't stop and read the part in Antipathy where it said "after resolving the current Action" in Antipathy.  

On the other hand, sequential effects doesn't come into it.  Antipathy is "After an enemy model ends a move within 4 of this model".  Without the "after resolving the current Action" to spin the effect off to later, Antipathy would be resolved immediately after the push (before the end of the previous Antipathy) because of the instructions to fully resolve the effect.

Of course, that creates a slightly different problem.  What's the timing on Antipathy supposed to be against free standing movement abilities like Battle Tempo?

Quote

Battle Tempo:  During the Start Phase, this model may Push up to 2" in any direction.

And then there's the indirect sequences:

• Fire Golem activates, setting off Fiery Presence
  • Nearby model gains Burning +1
    • Iggy's Misery goes off in reaction to the gaining of Burning, and the Move option is chosen
      • ??? When does Antipathy resolve because there's no current Action ???

If we assume, and I think we have to, that the "after the current Action" clause is intended as "If an Action is being resolved, delay this effect until the "After the action is resolved" step (no delay if outside of an Action)."  But if that's the case, it's back to the Antipathy tail-recursion.

Because, again, "fully resolve before moving on to any additional effects" means

1. Resolve the effect
2. Resolve any effects that happened "after" that effect
3. Now that all of the non-reschedule consequences of the first effect have been resolved, advance to the next effect and go back to step 1.

 

 

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

No.

Would you mind to elaborate? Other antipathy auras ignore the game effect that produces a change in the game state of that model. Which could make this aura stackable.

I'm not sure if this is how it is supposed to work but it's a possible reading; so if you see clearly why this aura isn't stackable, please go ahead and explain it.

4 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Do you also want to try and argue that if a model pushes into two Antipathy auras and passes the first duel they'd have to take another duel since they weren't pushed?

No, either the auras aren't stackable and then just 1 is triggered (choosen by the other player) or they are stackable and then 2 duels are triggered at the same time, independent of each other. 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Would you mind to elaborate? Other antipathy auras ignore the game effect that produces a change in the game state of that model. Which could make this aura stackable.

No, it can't.  The aura rules state that only one aura can affect a model.  The fact that the other abilities ignore the push doesn't change the fact that the push happened.  

"This Push is ignored by the Antipathy Ability of other friendly models." vs. "After an enemy model ends a move within 4" from being satisfied for the other friendly models." means that the Push that Antipathy generates doesn't trigger Antipathy.  Again, the push still happened, and because it happened the Aura rules mean that the other instances don't get to do anything.  Note:

Quote

If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the Aura would change its game state in some way), then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice.

That's all from the receiving model's view, not the models generating the auras.  So it doesn't matter whether the generating models are ignoring each other's effects.  And this may well be one the situations which justify the fact that it's the receiving model's choice which Aura affects it.

More importantly, the Wp duel qualifies as "game state change" as far as the Aura stacking rules are concerned.  A model surrounded by three Aversions at the end of a move doesn't take up to three TN 13 Wp duels until it fails one, it only takes one duel.  

[Ogid]

44 minutes ago, solkan said:

No, it can't.  The aura rules state that only one aura can affect a model.

Yes, but these auras ignore the effect of each other; so for the point of view of that aura, other auras with the same name aren't affecting that model.

44 minutes ago, solkan said:

The Wp duel qualifies as "game state change" as far as the Aura stacking rules are concerned.

This is the only part that could make it stackable... and barely because that Wp duel changes nothing in the model from the point of view of that aura... but I could buy that one.

It's weird, it could be as I'm saying but at the same time but as "game state change" isn't defined a "blank" Wp duel could count as it... and this would be a very convoluted way to say these auras stack (and it's also there to avoid chain trigger other auras with other pushs) so my reading couldn't be intended... I'm not fully convinced but as it seems i'm the only one making that reading, I'll stand with yours.

This ability could use a good FAQ explaining how it is supposed to work because between the timings, the recursive trigger and this possible stackable reading it's a mess...

[Maniacal_cackle]

It seems pretty clear to me that ignoring antipathy is to avoid the following sequence:

• Enemy moves near an aversion.
• Fails willpower duel, gets pushed away near another aversion.
• Enemy has now completed a move near an aversion. Has to take another willpower duel.

The aura rules prevent two antipathy effects from applying to the first movement.

The antipathy rules prevent the second willpower duel (other than having to do it again for the original antipathy model, which is probably needing an errata).

The antipathy rules are probably there to prevent a ping pong effect where you charge one aversion and end up getting pushed 9".

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

Yes, but these auras ignore the effect of each other; so for the point of view of that aura, other auras with the same name aren't affecting that model.

This is the only part that could make it stackable... and barely because that Wp duel changes nothing in the model from the point of view of that aura... but I could buy that one.

It's weird, it could be as I'm saying but at the same time but as "game state change" isn't defined a "blank" Wp duel could count as it... and this would be a very convoluted way to say these auras stack (and it's also there to avoid chain trigger other auras with other pushs) so my reading couldn't be intended... I'm not fully convinced but as it seems i'm the only one making that reading, I'll stand with yours.

This ability could use a good FAQ explaining how it is supposed to work because between the timings, the recursive trigger and this possible stackable reading it's a mess...

Imo your interpretation is just super wrong for 3 reasons. 

1. The ability says "This Push is ignored by the Antipathy ability of other models." The Push itself is what is ignorned, not the other Aversion's Aura

2. Although the Aversion ignores the Push, the model that was Pushed does not ignore it (obviously) meaning that the affected model is still considered to have its state changed by the first Aura, and since THAT model doesnt ignore anything about the ability, there is no case to be made that it does not have its state changed 

3. Even if 1 and 2 are incorrect, the Push is considered ignored, so as far as the 2nd Aura is concerned the target is not considered to have moved.

What I want to know is can the same Antipathy Aura trigger itself? So like can you move a model 2" to the edge of the Aura, then fail the duel again, then be pushed 3" away again for a total 5" of movement. Or, can you repeatedly trigger the aura on the same model is Hazardous terrain to dedify them. The only timing stipulation is "after resolving the current Action. So you walk into range, the actiom is resolved so Antipathy pushes them away but still inside the Aura range. Once the move is completed the Action is still finished, so Antipathy is still in its timing to trigger.

Similarly the Aura rules only cover if the Aura is effected by multiple Auras of the same name at the same time, not if the same Aura triggers itself repeatedly. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Mycellanious my interpretation is that the rules as written DO allow you to do the same Antipathy twice in a row like that (since it says 'other friendly'), if you meet the requirements.

I suspect that is not intentional and is in need of an errata.

The hazardous terrain may not quite work, though, as there is some funkiness about how many times hazardous gets applied during multi-part moves.

[Ogid]

I'm not saying I'm sold with that reading; just that it's a possible reading considering the rules.

16 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

1. The ability says "This Push is ignored by the Antipathy ability of other models." The Push itself is what is ignorned, not the other Aversion's Aura

2. Although the Aversion ignores the Push, the model that was Pushed does not ignore it (obviously) meaning that the affected model is still considered to have its state changed by the first Aura, and since THAT model doesnt ignore anything about the ability, there is no case to be made that it does not have its state changed 

1. In the aura rules what it's checked to stop different auras for affecting one model is whether those auras is changing anything in said model, if the push is ignored then we are left with a Wp duel with no effect. Is a Wp duel that produces nothing a change in the game state from the POW of the rules that will stop other auras for affecting that model?

2. The state of the model is obviously changed, but if other auras ignore that, then they could trigger for what stated above.

16 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

3. Even if 1 and 2 are incorrect, the Push is considered ignored, so as far as the 2nd Aura is concerned the target is not considered to have moved.

3. That wasn't my point. I never said the push from one aura may trigger a different one, but that 1 movement could trigger 3 auras at the same time for how it is worded (queuing 3 pushes if the 3 Wp fips are failed)

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Mycellanious my interpretation is that the rules as written DO allow you to do the same Antipathy twice in a row like that (since it says 'other friendly'), if you meet the requirements.

I suspect that is not intentional and is in need of an errata.

The hazardous terrain may not quite work, though, as there is some funkiness about how many times hazardous gets applied during multi-part moves.

And this is my point, there are too many weird things happening with this ability; an errata/FAQ clarifying how this is supposed to work would be very welcome.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

3. That wasn't my point. I never said the push from one aura may trigger a different one, but that 1 movement could trigger 3 auras at the same time for how it is worded (queuing 3 pushes if the 3 Wp fips are failed)

I realise I have a funky interpretation of the aura rules relative to the other people on this forum, but...

One movement can only ever cause one willpower duel with Antipathy. If you would be affected by multiple Antipathy auras, you choose which one applies to your model (and thus, the Aversion controller should probably not put Aversion models close to each other. It's a nonbo). At this point, you make the willpower duel.

I realise this is a bit funky relative to the other thread, but in my interpretation of the aura rules, 'affected by' means 'within the distance and conditions of the aura' essentially. Thus you are only 'affected by' one aura at a time, and subject to only one willpower duel.

I believe your confusion is arising from the definition used elsewhere in the forum (where 'affected by' means 'actually experiences a change in game state' and not 'could experience a change in game state'). Thus you're thinking the 'only one aura' rule applies at the point of the move, and not prior to that? I don't agree with that interpretation, but again, my aura reading rules are a bit different from the usual Misery interpretations anyway. So would be good to get another opinion.

I agree overall that aura rules need a FAQ/clarification.

[Maniacal_cackle]

But also worth saying that I think your interpretation @Ogid makes a weird kind of sense within the interpretation system of the other Misery thread (that an aura only counts as applying when it creates a change in game state) and with some more assumptions.

If you applied the same Misery logic here, antipathy either creates a change in game state when:

• It causes a duel to happen (if you think a duel is a change in game state)
• When it causes a push.

If the second interpretation of game state change (the push), then you would be in a world where the push is ignored by Antipathy, and it could be seen as a convoluted way of making the auras stack (since as far as the second Antipathy aura is concerned, the enemy model never experienced a change in game state). So there is some weird logic there. But I think it enough of a stretch that it couldn't possibly be what is intended there. It requires several layers of interpreting the rules in a specific way, when they could have just written "antipathy auras stack" or something if they wanted to.

Not to mention the argument about the model who was pushed by Antipathy still has been affected by Antipathy, so relative to that model, it has been affected by one and can still ignore other Antipathy auras.

So I can see what you're saying, but I think it is a bit too convoluted under either reasoning.

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Ogid said:

Yes, but these auras ignore the effect of each other; so for the point of view of that aura, other auras with the same name aren't affecting that model.

Depending on when you posted your response, see the rule in Auras:

Quote

If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the Aura would change its game state in some way), then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice.

Once again, the affected model doesn't care whether those same named auras are ignoring each other.  It's only going to be affected by one of them.  In order to make the auras stack, different language would be required.

 

Note that this situation is a lot like the rule in Moving:'

Quote

At no point can a model end any move with its base overlapping the base of another model, even if the model is able to move through the other model.

versus stuff like Popcorn Turner's On the Move:

Quote

On the Move:  At the start of this model's Activation, it may move up to 3", ignoring other models.

Does Popcorn Turner get to end his move overlapping another model, since he's very studiously ignoring that model?  No, he doesn't.

In order to end a move overlapping another model, vastly different language would be required.

 

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It requires several layers of interpreting the rules in a specific way, when they could have just written "antipathy auras stack" or something if they wanted to.

This is what make me think that reading cannot be intended... You follow well my line of reasoning there, but I knew there was something off key because it was too complicated to be that way.

50 minutes ago, solkan said:

Once again, the affected model doesn't care whether those same named auras are ignoring each other.  It's only going to be affected by one of them.  In order to make the auras stack, different language would be required.

Good point! In that phrase is probably the key of this interaction; it is done from the model affected POV, not from the auras... so even if the auras are ignoring each other the rule that prevent them to stack apply... well, I'm glad I was wrong here.

Lol, in fact you pointed it in your last post... I somehow missed that line 

 

Perfect, now that this part seems clear. What about the timming? I think this was the last post about that issue:

7 hours ago, solkan said:

I didn't stop and read the part in Antipathy where it said "after resolving the current Action" in Antipathy.  

On the other hand, sequential effects doesn't come into it.  Antipathy is "After an enemy model ends a move within 4 of this model".  Without the "after resolving the current Action" to spin the effect off to later, Antipathy would be resolved immediately after the push (before the end of the previous Antipathy) because of the instructions to fully resolve the effect.

Of course, that creates a slightly different problem.  What's the timing on Antipathy supposed to be against free standing movement abilities like Battle Tempo?

Quote

Battle Tempo:  During the Start Phase, this model may Push up to 2" in any direction.

And then there's the indirect sequences:

• Fire Golem activates, setting off Fiery Presence
  • Nearby model gains Burning +1
    • Iggy's Misery goes off in reaction to the gaining of Burning, and the Move option is chosen
      • ??? When does Antipathy resolve because there's no current Action ???

If we assume, and I think we have to, that the "after the current Action" clause is intended as "If an Action is being resolved, delay this effect until the "After the action is resolved" step (no delay if outside of an Action)."  But if that's the case, it's back to the Antipathy tail-recursion.

Because, again, "fully resolve before moving on to any additional effects" means

1. Resolve the effect
2. Resolve any effects that happened "after" that effect
3. Now that all of the non-reschedule consequences of the first effect have been resolved, advance to the next effect and go back to step 1.

Any extra thoughts?