Action Stats and built-in modifiers and suits

[Domin]

I had a confusion while reading the RB's examples.

RB, p. 58, refers to the action with a following Stat block: "5 + Rams + Positive".

Then it says:
 

Quote

Any Action that requires a duel will have a Stat. This is what the model adds to the card it flips in the duel (in this case, 5). It may also have a Fate Modifier, which impacts the flip for that Action, and/or a suit, which is added to the model’s final duel total

Does the balded thing it a simple missprint - and the whole stat of an action should be "5 + Rams + Positive"?

[Adran]

I would have written it as 5 . As that is what is added to the card to get the final total. You don't add the to the dual.

I have see people get confused over the addition of symbols so I can see why they went with numbers alone in that description.

[Clement]

Technically the stat is just 5 and the  and are fate modifiers that are always added to the duel total.

It really only comes up with abilities like Ophelia's Flinch that compares which stat is larger between attacker and defender.  If you build the into it, you now have to unpack the the question of which is larger, 5 or 5.

[solkan]

20 minutes ago, Clement said:

Technically the stat is just 5 and the  and are fate modifiers that are always added to the duel total.

Don't write "technically" and then get the technicality wrong.     Only the is a fate modifier.  The suit is just a suit.

Quote

Any Action that requires a duel will have a Stat. This is what the model adds to the card it flips in the duel (in this case, 5). It may also have a Fate Modifier, which impacts the flip for that Action, and/or a suit, which is added to the model’s final duel total.

Like you wrote, with things like Flinch

Quote

When an enemy model targets this model with an Attack Action, if the Action's Stat is higher than this model's Resist Stat, this model may gain Shielded +1.

if the stat included suits, then people would have to figure out how to compare them.

But...

Quote

It may also have a Fate Modifier, which impacts the flip for that Action, and/or a suit, which is added to the model’s final duel total.

The text in red is an aside explaining Fate Modifiers, and the text in Purple is an aside explaining what to do with the suit.  Suits aren't Fate Modifiers.

P.S.  For the OP's benefit...  The other reason why the suit value is just "added to the model's final duel total" is that during M2E, there were various abilities that erased suits from stats, and abilities that added suits to stats, and sometimes really bad interactions between how the effects were worded.

[Domin]

7 hours ago, solkan said:

Don't write "technically" and then get the technicality wrong.     Only the is a fate modifier.  The suit is just a suit.

Like you wrote, with things like Flinch

if the stat included suits, then people would have to figure out how to compare them.

But...

The text in red is an aside explaining Fate Modifiers, and the text in Purple is an aside explaining what to do with the suit.  Suits aren't Fate Modifiers.

P.S.  For the OP's benefit...  The other reason why the suit value is just "added to the model's final duel total" is that during M2E, there were various abilities that erased suits from stats, and abilities that added suits to stats, and sometimes really bad interactions between how the effects were worded.

So you mean that Stat is only 5, while Fate Modifier and suit are aside? 

[solkan]

9 minutes ago, Domin said:

So you mean that Stat is only 5, while Fate Modifier and suit are aside? 

Yes, the stat is only the "5".  The other things on the stat line are just that, "other things on the stat line".

And, emberrassingly enough, if you see one of the relatively rare cards where the Df or Wp has a suit next to the number, and you've tried to find the explanation for it works, that's one of "Everyone remembered how it worked, and didn't notice it isn't explained" mistakes.  The bit in Actions explaining what to do with the suit value applies the same to suits in the Df and Wp stat lines.

After looking at some of the cards like the Doppleganger with it's Mimic action, "The Stat for the Action is considered to be equal to the Stat for this Action" doesn't erase any suits or the Malifaux Child's Just Like You!'s "This model may take the selected Action with a penalty of -2 to its Stat" is talking entirely about the numeric value and whether to adjust it.  The copied action still has the same fate modifier and suit (if any) that's specified on the originating card, because that's not specified as changing.

[Domin]

If only there where something like an official approvement for that) 

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Domin said:

If only there where something like an official approvement for that) 

Is there actual confusion how to do it?

I'm not a fan of errata for errata's sake, and I'm not actually sure what your confusion is, or even if it makes any difference to any part of the rules. There are some unclear things in the rules and something's that need clarification because there are multiple possibilities, but I'm not sure that is the case here.

[Ogid]

11 hours ago, solkan said:

After looking at some of the cards like the Doppleganger with it's Mimic action, "The Stat for the Action is considered to be equal to the Stat for this Action" doesn't erase any suits or the Malifaux Child's Just Like You!'s "This model may take the selected Action with a penalty of -2 to its Stat" is talking entirely about the numeric value and whether to adjust it.  The copied action still has the same fate modifier and suit (if any) that's specified on the originating card, because that's not specified as changing.

So a 5 would become 3 copied by a Changeling/Terracota and a 7 copied by a Doppleganger.

The Changeling/Terracota case is clear and reading the rulebook the Doppleganger case also seems consisent.

6 hours ago, Adran said:

Is there actual confusion how to do it?

I'm not a fan of errata for errata's sake, and I'm not actually sure what your confusion is, or even if it makes any difference to any part of the rules. There are some unclear things in the rules and something's that need clarification because there are multiple possibilities, but I'm not sure that is the case here.

I agree the Doppleganger may use a FAQ because in the card the Stat+FateModifier+Suit is under the headline "Stat"; which will lead to some players arguing that the Doppleganger saying the stat is 7 refers to the whole (Stat+FateMod+Suit) instead of only the Stat and not the +FateMod+Suit part.

[LeperColony]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

some players arguing that the Doppleganger saying the stat is 7 refers to the whole (Stat+FateMod+Suit) instead of only the Stat and not the +FateMod+Suit part.

The main point of potential ambiguity, in my opinion is that the word "it" in the definition may refer to the stat itself (in which case the suit and fate modifiers are inclusive) or the action (in which case they are not).

"Any action that requires a duel will have a Stat.  This is what the model adds to the card it flips in the duel (in this case, 5).  It may also have a Fate Modifier..." (pg 22 digital, emphasis added)

I'm not sure there is a need for an errata because I've always thought it was just the value, but I've also never really looked closely at it.  In my opinion, the "it" here is the action, and I think that's the most natural reading.  I'd consider it a stretch to see "it" as referring to the stat, but it isn't an entirely inconsistent reading.

The question then is when does an ambiguity rise to the level of requiring official clarification.  I think where there's communal consensus, that should be enough (unless the consensus ends up being wrong, in which case Wyrd's need to rule on it is even stronger), but where there isn't a clear and significant majority, then that may indicate a FAQ/errata is appropriate.

[Ogid]

I see potential problems there... my reading before knowing the nuances pointed in this thread was the opposite (stat in the Doppleganger case being the Stat+FateMod+Suit); I'm not sure whether other players also readed it like me...

However, having 2 things with the same name, even if one of them is just a headline, could open it to be rules lawyered imo.

[Mortarion]

On 10/4/2019 at 6:23 PM, Ogid said:

I agree the Doppleganger may use a FAQ because in the card the Stat+FateModifier+Suit is under the headline "Stat"; which will lead to some players arguing that the Doppleganger saying the stat is 7 refers to the whole (Stat+FateMod+Suit) instead of only the Stat and not the +FateMod+Suit part.

Exactly. Before reading this thread, I had read the last sentence of the Doppelganger's Mimic ability as "Replace whatever is listed under STAT on the copied model's card with whatever is listed under STAT on this ability", which would remove any suits and modifiers. After reading this thread I agree that Stat is something different than Fate modifier and Suit, so that only the number would be replaced while the copied modifiers and suits would remain. But it could use a FAQ entry.