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Aionus up for a small rewrite?


Erik1978

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Played corrupted idols against Tara today.

Needless to say he had +5 or +6 on ini every turn because of Aionus who succeed INCL. trigger on even a black joker(?).

I know some people justify the 2 pass tokens with his ability to spend them but that action should at least require say, a 7, and without the built in crow IMO.

At least leverage requires schemes to be revealed so it's turn 3 at the EARLIEST, whereas Aionus just craps out pass tokens effortlessly from turn 1.

If it wasn't guaranteed I think it would feel less brain farty compared to others who can gain pass tokens here and there?

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I mean, the pass tokens never do much to my strategies beyond getting him initiative, probably. And Tara doesn't exactly have a wealth of alpha at her command. I think a second game into Aionus might change your theory on it. He's otherwise a 10 stone model that spends his AP... not, attacking people or scoring objectives? Or getting out of his deployment zone, in my experience. 

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47 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I mean, the pass tokens never do much to my strategies beyond getting him initiative, probably.

In my last game against Tara my opponent used Aionus and his easy Pass Token generation to force all but the first Idol Marker to appear on one side of the board. Tara was easily able to redeploy her crew right next to all of the Idol Markers using her buries while I only ever managed to get the first Idol Marker.

My opponent routinely outactivated me and simultaneously got 16+ on initiative on several turns.

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He can only generate 4 tokens. And that is basically his whole turn to do. Tara will normally out activate, but only by 1, so to have last activation and a score of 16+ either they have flipped a 12 for initiative, or they have killed some of your models.  It might not help, but it's sometimes worth remembering that cheating initiative is done before you add pass tokens to the flip, so the order is determined by the cards flipped. 

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

He can only generate 4 tokens. And that is basically his whole turn to do. Tara will normally out activate, but only by 1, so to have last activation and a score of 16+ either they have flipped a 12 for initiative, or they have killed some of your models.  It might not help, but it's sometimes worth remembering that cheating initiative is done before you add pass tokens to the flip, so the order is determined by the cards flipped. 

that... could probably be clearer. This is the first time I've heard it played that way. 

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46 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

that... could probably be clearer. This is the first time I've heard it played that way. 

It’s spelled out explicitly in separate steps in Iniative Flip:

  1. Players simultaneously flip a card.
  2. Players may Cheat Fate, starting with the player with the lower flip.
  3. The players add the number of Pass Tokens they possess to their total.

Unless you’re referring to Aionus’s pass token generation...

I think Aionus could generate more than four pass tokens a turn.  Dead Outlaws can give out Fast to friendly models (consuming a Scheme Marker to do so), or Tara uses Timeslip to make Aionus fast.  And Malifaux Child could use Just Like You to do it again.

With lucky clustering, and either good cards or Burning soulstones, Tara could generate a lot of pass tokens to add to Aionus’s four to six.

Especially since Aionus’s Action has the sort of duel that the other player often wants to lose (so they can Unbury and beat Aionus up).  It probably makes using Malifaux Child for the extra go more attractive.

Is that sort of thing happening with Tara and Aionus?

 

 

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

It’s spelled out explicitly in separate steps in Iniative Flip:

  1. Players simultaneously flip a card.
  2. Players may Cheat Fate, starting with the player with the lower flip.
  3. The players add the number of Pass Tokens they possess to their total.

Well, in the 30+ games I've played, including several tournaments, I have yet to meet a person who played it that way. In fact, I've only ever played it opposite, where you immediately add to the initiative flip, so if you have a 5+2 you cheat after the 6. So if it is intended to work this way, I don't think its particularly clear. But what makes you sure it is intended to work with that timing? Both "steps" occur during the same step (Step C) nor is there indication within the step,

"Both players flip a card, which may be Cheated. The player with Initiative Cheats first in the case of ties. Players increase their totals by the number of Pass Tokens they possess and then discard their pass tokens."

To me, this reads as if they happen at the same time. This wording is very different from: 

"Both players flip a card. After cheating, players increase their totals by the number of Pass Tokens they possess." 

There isn't even so much as a "then." When effects happen sequentially, the effects in question are separated by a "then", as in Unhinge, "Target suffers damage equal to the number of friendly Nightmare models within Pulse 3 of itself. Then, every friendly Nightmare within Pulse 3 of the target Heals 1." The way it is worded currently seems to suggest that the discarding of Pass Tokens happens simultaneously with flipping the card, before cheating fate, so if it is intended to be otherwise, then yes I do not think it is clear because they very specifically are not spelled out in separate steps. 

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27 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Well, in the 30+ games I've played, including several tournaments, I have yet to meet a person who played it that way. In fact, I've only ever played it opposite, where you immediately add to the initiative flip, so if you have a 5+2 you cheat after the 6. So if it is intended to work this way, I don't think its particularly clear. But what makes you sure it is intended to work with that timing? Both "steps" occur during the same step (Step C) nor is there indication within the step,

"Both players flip a card, which may be Cheated. The player with Initiative Cheats first in the case of ties. Players increase their totals by the number of Pass Tokens they possess and then discard their pass tokens."

To me, this reads as if they happen at the same time. This wording is very different from: 

"Both players flip a card. After cheating, players increase their totals by the number of Pass Tokens they possess." 

There isn't even so much as a "then." When effects happen sequentially, the effects in question are separated by a "then", as in Unhinge, "Target suffers damage equal to the number of friendly Nightmare models within Pulse 3 of itself. Then, every friendly Nightmare within Pulse 3 of the target Heals 1." The way it is worded currently seems to suggest that the discarding of Pass Tokens happens simultaneously with flipping the card, before cheating fate, so if it is intended to be otherwise, then yes I do not think it is clear because they very specifically are not spelled out in separate steps. 

Why are you quoting from Detailed Timing?  That's a summary chart.

Because page 20 of the PDF (Start Phase, Step C) says explicitly:

Quote

C. Initiative Flip:
1. Players simultaneously flip a card.

2. Players may Cheat Fate with a card from their hand, starting with the player with the lower flip (in a tie, the player with Initiative has the first opportunity to Cheat Fate).

3. The players add the number of Pass Tokens they possess to their total. The player with the highest value may choose which player has Initiative (Initiative lasts until another effect grants Initiative). If the values are tied, start again from the first step. Then, after Initiative has been determined, both players discard their Pass Tokens.

And the definition in Pass Tokens even reinforces that:

Quote

In the Start Phase of the next Turn, after players have had an opportunity to Cheat Fate on their Initiative flip, each player adds the number of Pass Tokens they possess to their Initiative total and then discards all of their Pass Tokens.

You don't add the flip until after Cheating.  Because you haven't added anything to the cards yet, you cheat according to the cards.

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1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

I quoted from the Detailed Timing section, which I thought laid out timings specifically. But hey, I guess it wasn't as clear as I thought lol. 

It's understandable that someone in your play group looked at that chart, leaped to the conclusion that "Oh, the Initiative Flip is just a Pass Token Duel" or something similar.  And the Initiative Flip would work the way you spelled it out if it was defined as a "# of Pass Tokens" vs. "# of Pass Tokens" duel.  That would probably be fewer words in the rulebook to explain, and simpler for everyone.  But, for better or for worse, it's not defined that way.  It's defined the way it is because they sort of just piled rules on top of the M2E initiative flip process to get where it is now.

In the sequence of steps specified, if the players end up flipping a 2 vs. 6, the 2 cheats first even if the 2 has 10 Pass Tokens and the 6 has none.  Because the instructions are what they are, even if Detailed Timing smushes the steps together so that they look like something else.

 

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7 hours ago, solkan said:

And Malifaux Child could use Just Like You to do it again.

...

Especially since Aionus’s Action has the sort of duel that the other player often wants to lose (so they can Unbury and beat Aionus up).  It probably makes using Malifaux Child for the extra go more attractive.

Just a quick note, that Sever Timeline is an attack action, therefore cannot be copied with Just like you.

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7 hours ago, solkan said:

Especially since Aionus’s Action has the sort of duel that the other player often wants to lose (so they can Unbury and beat Aionus up).

My opponent had Servant of Dark Powers on Aionus and used him to unbury Tara, The Nothing Beast, and a Void Hunter over the centerline.

9 hours ago, Adran said:

It might not help, but it's sometimes worth remembering that cheating initiative is done before you add pass tokens to the flip, so the order is determined by the cards flipped.

My opponent only needed a 9 or a 10 to make it impossible for me to win initiative and two of the suits put the Idols on the side of the table with her entire crew. 50% of the time I would have to cheat initiative first which I rarely did because my king would be equivalent to a 7-11 for my opponent.

The large surplus of pass tokens also made threatening Aionus very hard due to his ability to pass enemy (enemies with fast) activations with them.

Aionus is very hard to beat in this strategy because the Tara player can choose which side of the board she is going to hoard markers on after deployment and then easily redeploy there. I can't really interact with the strategy from that point on until around turn 4/5, and that is only if I'm able to walk over to Tara's new side of the table and kill most of her models so I can interact with the Idols.

I think being able to control the suit of initiative with almost no ability for your opponent to contest you is unbalanced in Corrupted Idols.

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8 minutes ago, Jinn said:

My opponent only needed a 9 or a 10 to make it impossible for me to win initiative and two of the suits put the Idols on the side of the table with her entire crew. 50% of the time I would have to cheat initiative first which I rarely did because my king would be equivalent to a 7-11 for my opponent.

The large surplus of pass tokens also made threatening Aionus very hard due to his ability to pass enemy (enemies with fast) activations with them.

Aionus is very hard to beat in this strategy because the Tara player can choose which side of the board she is going to hoard markers on after deployment and then easily redeploy there. I can't really interact with the strategy from that point on until around turn 4/5, and that is only if I'm able to walk over to Tara's new side of the table and kill most of her models so I can interact with the Idols.

I think being able to control the suit of initiative with almost no ability for your opponent to contest you is unbalanced in Corrupted Idols.

I hope you do understand that Aionius using pass tokens to delay your models activation is just that. It doesn't stop you activating the model later, it is him spending his pass tokens to let you pass an activation. Its a strong ability, but every time he does it he in effect gives you 2 activations in the activation chain to activate last. The +one for the pass you just got and the -one for the pass he just lost.

If you find he is out activating you and having too many pass tokens, then perhaps you should try and make him spend them like this. Yes it will let him get 2 activations in a row. yes, sometimes you don't want that.

Tara is certainly a strong master for this Strat, if you build something like this for it. I first came to this thread expecting it to be more complaints about how bad Aionius was, so was [pleasantly surprised when it was the other way round.  Tara has a relatively fast redeployment, but only really to Aionius. If you see him go one way then you can also head that way expecting this approach.

I've not faced Tara in cursed, (and not facign this sort of plan), so my suggested counterplays are only theory. but there are options. (And there is also hands of rubbish, where you don't draw that tome you need to cheat initative). I don't think there is "No counterplay", but you probably need to go into the game at least knowing that this could be what Tara is going to do.

9 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

that... could probably be clearer. This is the first time I've heard it played that way. 

It is very clear in the rules if you look in the right place. It may be slightly less clear in the timing page, but its still written in the correct order. I spend a lot of time in the rules forum and I would say about 90% of the questions can be answered by actually reading the rules, rather than skimming and guessing. (I do it myself so I'm guilty too, but if something seems too good, it is worth looking at the actual rules to see if you are doing it right. Sometimes you will be, but I know a lot of people wouldn't realise this one, which is why I pointed it out. )

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I often see Aionus made fast. REMEMBER, even if he's standing in his own deployent zone the entire game, he can unbury ENEMY models too (and still get 2 pass tokens), and that enemy is then unburied in the middle of scheme markers or a bunch of swords.

Aionus doesn't really NEED to move a lot. 

I see the point with him "not doing much else" but I would like to see him actually having a TN on that action and not a built in trigger. Everyone else has to do something for their pass tokens (like hit an enemy with the correct suit), he doesn't care what he flips, he actually hopes to burn some crappy cards while guaranteeing ini for the next turn. 

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14 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I often see Aionus made fast. REMEMBER, even if he's standing in his own deployent zone the entire game, he can unbury ENEMY models too (and still get 2 pass tokens), and that enemy is then unburied in the middle of scheme markers or a bunch of swords.

Aionus doesn't really NEED to move a lot. 

I see the point with him "not doing much else" but I would like to see him actually having a TN on that action and not a built in trigger. Everyone else has to do something for their pass tokens (like hit an enemy with the correct suit), he doesn't care what he flips, he actually hopes to burn some crappy cards while guaranteeing ini for the next turn. 

He can be made fast. I think the cheapest way is to use the entire activation of a 5ss model every turn. (its not that likely you have 3 buried models every turn to unbury either).

I'm not even sure what the dream scenario is. Aionius unburies 3 enemies next to him (which leaves him in a bad place next turn. He is not that strong a model to be able to survive 3 enemy models all that long). And you have to be doing well to bury 3 enemy models each turn. Or Unbury 3 of your own models (well 2 and use the bonus action to re-bury one of them). That gets you the 6 pass tokens each turn, but you are using up 15 SS of models and 2 summoned models to do nothing else really.

His action is fairly automatic. But it is an opposed duel if its enemy models (and either you need to bury them after they have activated that turn, or you really need to pressurise their activation order for them to not just unbury them themselves).  The set up to get pass tokens is in all those actions previously to bury models.

I've not tried to abuse sever timeline, (I'm not sure I've played with Tara since before he had that ability in the beta), but I rarely had 2 models buried in any turn when I have played her.  Is it a tactic you have faced often and can't counter or is it one that you have faced once and weren't expecting?

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I do think this is the kind of thing that requires more than one game to make a verdict on. Aionus is a 10 ss model with literally no defensive tech. You may be surprised at how easily you can kill him with just a little focus. This is especially true if your opponent is putting him past the middle of the board or unburying 3 enemy models next to himself. That's just putting him in harm's way and you should take advantage of that. 

Sever timeline is a very good ability but it is also the only thing Aionus does and he is 10 ss. If sever timeline was nerfed, I believe that he would need something given back to him to remain playable. In the beta, it was the addition of sever timeline with the fleeting moments trigger that made him playable at all. Before that, he was terrible for 10 ss. 

Tara is strong for cursed idols, but she is hardly the only master that is good at that strategy. She is my go to master for cursed idols and plant explosives if I want to play a competitive game (Though, I'm also liking Schill for plant explosives). I think we need more games and games where it is not a player's first game against her. A wise man once said that, "everything in Malifaux 3e feels broken the first time you play against it" or something to that effect. Haha. 

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5 hours ago, Adran said:

I spend a lot of time in the rules forum and I would say about 90% of the questions can be answered by actually reading the rules, rather than skimming and guessing. (I do it myself so I'm guilty too, but if something seems too good, it is worth looking at the actual rules to see if you are doing it right. Sometimes you will be, but I know a lot of people wouldn't realise this one, which is why I pointed it out. )

As someone who has posted some silly rules questions in this edition, I can attest to the benefit of reading rather than skimming... 😅

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(its not that likely you have 3 buried models every turn to unbury either).

My last game he summoned a cheap model, unburied it, buried it, then unburied it again because he had nothing better to do with Aionus that turn. You don't need to have 3 models buried.

Quote


I think we need more games and games where it is not a player's first game against her.

 

I've played against Tara/Aionus a handful of times now, 2 different opponents playing him differently. Common is: they always rule ini and dictate corrupted idol placement. 

And yeah I agree different masters are good at different strats/schemes, which is fine. I just dislike a mechanic where you get precious pass tokens with no effort. As I said: put in a TN and remove the built in crow and he is good to go.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Erik1978 said:

I just dislike a mechanic where you get precious pass tokens with no effort.

Did anyone tell him about Qi & Gong?  I'm gonna tell him about Qi & Gong!

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I guess I should tell YOU about them then...

First: Your opponent knows what you are playing and can plan schemes accordingly, which means scoring schemes in turn 4 (if possible).

Second: Even if your opponent goes ahead and scores for scheme in turn 2, you will get pass tokens starting from turn 3!

That's the EARLIEST you get a load of pass tokens, which means turn 1 and 2 are more even, and only if schemes are scored in turn 2 because your opponent decides he can't wait.

So unlike against Aionus, there is something you can do here. There is a big difference from initiative turn 2+3+4+5 being automatically lost to only turn 4+5.

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The big problem for Tara is that a 10 points model (20% of her crew) is expending his turn doing nothing more than generating pass tokens and trolling some buried friendly model (because versus enemy models it's not that easy with only a stat of 5).

In Qi and Gong there are more sources of pass tokens than Leverage: Chiyo; who only for being in the other player half of the table is giving her 2 pass tokens; Youko herself can generate pass tokens with blackmail (or you can choose to discard your entire hand to not give them lol) and inside that faction there is also the lone swordman; which will generate pass tokens while happily carving some of your models. Chiyo + 2 Blackmails with no discards (2 APs from Youko's activation tho) will be 6 pass tokens plus another extra 2 for the lone swordman, a very extreme case tho.

Or in NVB for 4 SS and no actions there are 2 upgrades that will give the players +2 initiative and +2 cards from turn 1.

My point is that Tara is paying a high prize to do that. Aionus can do it on his own with no interaction with the othe player (OMG, call the NPE police!!!), but that has an extra prize: Having to unbury/bury/unbury a summon. If Aionus is in a safe place, then the summon is very out of position and useless; if Aionus is near of the fray, the summon will be useful (but then Aionus is exposed to retaliation). Checking other crews the price he is paying is simmilar (Youko 5SS action = 2 pass tokens; NVB extra 4SS = 2 pass tokens, Lone 8SS = 2 pass tokens plus big damage...)

But there is no outcast in my meta so I don't know if Tara is too good there tho.

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14 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

My last game he summoned a cheap model, unburied it, buried it, then unburied it again because he had nothing better to do with Aionus that turn. You don't need to have 3 models buried.

I've played against Tara/Aionus a handful of times now, 2 different opponents playing him differently. Common is: they always rule ini and dictate corrupted idol placement. 

And yeah I agree different masters are good at different strats/schemes, which is fine. I just dislike a mechanic where you get precious pass tokens with no effort. As I said: put in a TN and remove the built in crow and he is good to go.

 

 

And he is too way overcosted. 10ss,no damage output, no resilience. If you do that, cost him properly at 8ss.

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On 10/4/2019 at 11:33 PM, Alerteddonkey42 said:

Aionus is a 10 ss model with literally no defensive tech. You may be surprised at how easily you can kill him with just a little focus. This is especially true if your opponent is putting him past the middle of the board or unburying 3 enemy models next to himself. That's just putting him in harm's way and you should take advantage of that. 

Whenever I threaten a model in Tara's crew but don't manage to kill it my opponent will usually just have a Void Wretch walk up to it and bury it with a bonus action, making it impossible to finish off. This game I had an unactivated Ice Golem (with attuned) sitting right next to Aionus (potentially min 5!), but because it had fast I was unable to threaten him unless I gave my opponent like 6 activations in a row (pretty good defensive tech btw).

All I'm saying is that I find winning on VP in Corrupted Idols a bit difficult when my opponent in all likelihood gets to choose the placement of 4-5 of the Idol Markers and goes first on every turn that matters. If the pass token generating mechanic was something I could plausibly disrupt or if it required interaction with my crew then it would be a lot fairer in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, Jinn said:

Whenever I threaten a model in Tara's crew but don't manage to kill it my opponent will usually just have a Void Wretch walk up to it and bury it with a bonus action, making it impossible to finish off.

Then that model is as good as dead; it's gone, too hurt to be able to contest anything, and you can do whatever scheme that model was trying to stop.

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

This game I had an unactivated Ice Golem (with attuned) sitting right next to Aionus (potentially min 5!), but because it had fast I was unable to threaten him unless I gave my opponent like 6 activations in a row (pretty good defensive tech btw).

Giving the other player the last activations may backfire hard for the Tara player; let the other player choose between burn her pass tokens or risk Aionus isn't that bad unless you need stuff done now; in that case do that stuff and then try to activate the golem to force her to spend her resources or have her henchman beated.

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

All I'm saying is that I find winning on VP in Corrupted Idols a bit difficult when my opponent in all likelihood gets to choose the placement of 4-5 of the Idol Markers and goes first on every turn that matters. If the pass token generating mechanic was something I could plausibly disrupt or if it required interaction with my crew then it would be a lot fairer in my opinion.

Maybe they are good there, but learning how to counter these things is the name of the game; I'm sure there are ways to win there. My (uneducated) guess: Look for a way to block the spawn of one of the corners and focus to control the others; don't spread your models so Tara can't send your buried models away from the middle line. Control the middle line and pick schemes that don't need you to send models too far from that. Beat her models while her 10SS Henchman stay in her deployment zone playing with a void wretch. If you have to send anything alone be sure that model have a very high Wp value (a rider for example), to avoid her to send it back to the square one...

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3 hours ago, Jinn said:

This game I had an unactivated Ice Golem (with attuned) sitting right next to Aionus (potentially min 5!), but because it had fast I was unable to threaten him unless I gave my opponent like 6 activations in a row (pretty good defensive tech btw).

The downside to Tara is that to do this will give you 5 back to back activation at the end of the turn that she can't react to, and a straight initiative flip for next turn.  Now there are certainly times you don't want an opponent to have multiple activations, but there are many occasions in a game where I want to pass and would happily let my opponent have multiple activations. And if I could do so to cost my opponent resources then I would certainly go for it. 

If their plan was to have last activation and win initiative, then they can't afford to make you miss many activations. ( as a general rule they can afford to make you miss 2 if Aionius has  just done his unbury trick. Any more and you activate last. Model death obviously will change this. As will him being fast, and doing it 3 times but that's 1/3 + of if his crew, so You should be able to out do the remaining 2/3 with your whole crew. ). 

 

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