Self Loathing Question

[Mut]

How does using Self Loathing on Zoraida work if I were to select her Obey action as my Self Loathing choice? Can the Pandora player Obey another model through Zoraida? Or is the Pandora player basically Obeying Zoraida herself to do an action? Or is it neither?

[Kharnage]

3 minutes ago, Mut said:

How does using Self Loathing on Zoraida work if I were to select her Obey action as my Self Loathing choice? Can the Pandora player Obey another model through Zoraida? Or is the Pandora player basically Obeying Zoraida herself to do an action? Or is it neither?

Self-Loathing inherits the same special restrictions as the original Attack action, and it has to be directed at the model that you're stealing from, so it just doesn't work if you pick Obey because Zoraida's a master and it's non-master only. You'd have to go for Hex or Voodoo Pins if you wanted, for some reason.

[Mut]

Ok, that was my assumption due to the special restrictions clause, but I wanted to be certain. Thanks!

[Ogid]

A question about the inheritance of these special restrictions... I'm always asumed it worked this way, but just for checking:

• If self-loathing copy an ability with "once per turn/activation", it will fail if you have used self-loathing before that turn/activation (because that would be your second use of self-loathing that turn/activation), even if it was used for a non-"once per" ability. 
• A succesful use of self-loathing in one of these abilities ("once per turn/activation", hence the first use) won't prevent a second use of self-loathing in a non-"once per" ability.

Is that right?

[Pikciwok]

I think your reasoning is correct.

[solkan]

6 hours ago, Ogid said:

A question about the inheritance of these special restrictions... I'm always asumed it worked this way, but just for checking:

• If self-loathing copy an ability with "once per turn/activation", it will fail if you have used self-loathing before that turn/activation (because that would be your second use of self-loathing that turn/activation), even if it was used for a non-"once per" ability. 
• A succesful use of self-loathing in one of these abilities ("once per turn/activation", hence the first use) won't prevent a second use of self-loathing in a non-"once per" ability.

Is that right?

For what it's worth, I think this scenario comes up a few different times in different abilities.  For instance, the Jackalope's demise has a "once per" limitation that it can ignore which creates the same sort of scenario.

 

And bonus actions generated by triggers get into another similar scenario.  I think it qualifies as one of those situations where you're going to find people playing it otherwise simply because it's too obnoxious to play straight.

 

[Ogid]

In this case I think the difference is Self-Loathing gains the restrictions of the ability but it doesn't "remember" them. It's a "blank" ability each time you try to use it; so when it gains the restrictions, then you have to check if the use of the ability is legal according to the newly gained restrictions and act accordingly.

Also, it'd be interesting to know at what point an "once per" ability fails. Can you declare it; but then it fail at step 2 when you are paying cost, or you can't even declare it? I'd say you can declare them but it fails at the cost step.

About your linked post, I'd say ignoring the restriction =/= count it as not used; so you better discard a card first in that one.

The rulebook says this in the pg22

Quote

"A model can only take one Bonus Action per Activation, unless the Action was generated by a Trigger"

Which leave it more open to be able to use first the trigger bonus action and then the normal bonus action.

[santaclaws01]

5 minutes ago, Ogid said:

In this case I think the difference is Self-Loathing gains the restrictions of the ability but it doesn't "remember" them. It's a "blank" ability each time you try to use it; so when it gains the restrictions, then you have to check if the use of the ability is legal according to the newly gained restrictions and act accordingly.

Also, it'd be interesting to know at what point an "once per" ability fails. Can you declare it; but then it fail at step 2 when you are paying cost, or you can't even declare it? I'd say you can declare them but it fails at the cost step.

About your linked post, I'd say ignoring the restriction =/= count it as not used; so you better discard a card first in that one.

The rulebook says this in the pg22

Which leave it more open to be able to use first the trigger bonus action and then the normal bonus action.

You can't declare an action if it doesn't meet the special restrictions, as it says in the special restrictions call out box. At the time of declaring Self Loathing it has no special restrictions. When the Special Restrictions are gained you are in step 3 of resolving an action. The only special restrictions that matter at that point are targeting restrictions.

[Ogid]

39 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You can't declare an action if it doesn't meet the special restrictions, as it says in the special restrictions call out box. At the time of declaring Self Loathing it has no special restrictions. When the Special Restrictions are gained you are in step 3 of resolving an action. The only special restrictions that matter at that point are targeting restrictions.

That cover well the restriction part, so you can't even declare it.

However, even if I like it would be like that, I doubt that's intended for self-loathing; if you don't check the newly gained restrictions, what is the point of gaining them at all? Also it could lead to some non-intended stuff like using 3 times Seamus' Flintlock... I think they will be gained in the step 1, as soon as you declare it (or even before declaring it!); and they would be able to make an ability which couldn't be used with those restrictions fail...