Big listbuilding thread

[Myyrä]

The title is misleading, because the thread isn't vey big yet. Sorry about that.

I remember we used to have a big list building thread on this subforum back in second edition. The way it worked was people would post strategy, schemes and opponent and people would tell what kind of lists they would play in the described scenario. I liked that thread.

The premise is somewhat different from the show us your lists thing that we have going on, because here you are dealing with hypotheticals, and don't have to be limited by your model collection or things like that unless you want to be. Everyone is free to post a scenario and ask for good lists. You don't have to post a list to the previous scenario to post a new one or post a new scenario when posting a list. You can even include a list of your available models if you want the listbuilders to use those.

I'll get the ball rolling. What would you play against:
Zoraida
Wedge deployment, Corrupted Idols
Deliver a Message, Breakthrough, Search the Ruins, Vendetta, Harness the Ley Line

Feel free to also comment on what schemes you might want to take or justifications for picking the specific models. I will probably also drop a list for this at some later time.

[Rubyhathunger]

Ok I just propose another matchup, first I present what I have for the guild:

Dashel, all guard keyword models exept for the Warden and Taggard Queeg. I have 2 Lawyers. Nellie, all available journalist models (Core Box+Allison) but I never played journalists. No versatile models, I plan on buying the steward and the pale rider, but at the moment they are hard to get.

Match against Pandora

I like to play with a list composed primarily of guard models. The question is how to win against Pandora with Dashel.

Corner Deployment

Plant explosives

Schemes: Breakthrough, Harness the leyline, dig their graves, claim jump, deliver message

 

[4thstringer]

53 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

The title is misleading, because the thread isn't vey big yet. Sorry about that.

I remember we used to have a big list building thread on this subforum back in second edition. The way it worked was people would post strategy, schemes and opponent and people would tell what kind of lists they would play in the described scenario. I liked that thread.

The premise is somewhat different from the show us your lists thing that we have going on, because here you are dealing with hypotheticals, and don't have to be limited by your model collection or things like that unless you want to be. Everyone is free to post a scenario and ask for good lists. You don't have to post a list to the previous scenario to post a new one or post a new scenario when posting a list. You can even include a list of your available models if you want the listbuilders to use those.

I'll get the ball rolling. What would you play against:
Zoraida
Wedge deployment, Corrupted Idols
Deliver a Message, Breakthrough, Search the Ruins, Vendetta, Harness the Ley Line

Feel free to also comment on what schemes you might want to take or justifications for picking the specific models. I will probably also drop a list for this at some later time.

Wedge zoraida into idols?  Going to be tough no matter how you do it.  I think I would want basse with some traps to help guard the idols without risk of obeys, and Nellie as a second master to give me someone to move traps without getting obeyed or anything.

I'd need something to help cross the distances to the edges, so it's either going to be a guardian or the pale rider.  Zoraida is one of the few times I don't like pale rider so guardian it is.  

That's going to be most of my points.  Might fill the rest with either some card draw or utility models.

[4thstringer]

17 minutes ago, Rubyhathunger said:

Ok I just propose another matchup, first I present what I have for the guild:

Dashel, all guard keyword models exept for the Warden and Taggard Queeg. I have 2 Lawyers. Nellie, all available journalist models (Core Box+Allison) but I never played journalists. No versatile models, I plan on buying the steward and the pale rider, but at the moment they are hard to get.

Match against Pandora

I like to play with a list composed primarily of guard models. The question is how to win against Pandora with Dashel.

Corner Deployment

Plant explosives

Schemes: Breakthrough, Harness the leyline, dig their graves, claim jump, deliver message

 

You need speed for corner explosives, which means you will really miss queeg, but the Sarge and mounted guard x2 are essential.  Their sorrows are mobile as hell, but i think a lawyer could mess that up by picking up some markers.  

Phiona might be an ok beater choice here.  

[Xekros]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

I'll get the ball rolling. What would you play against:
Zoraida
Wedge deployment, Corrupted Idols
Deliver a Message, Breakthrough, Search the Ruins, Vendetta, Harness the Ley Line

My first thought is Riotbreakers or the Emmisary for Crowd Control. Probably the Riotbreakers, since they can't be obeyed themselves, unlike the Emmisary. Irreducible damage does hurt against armor, but at least Z can't make you throw it in the wrong direction.

@4thstringer How do the traps ignore obeys?

[Myyrä]

2 minutes ago, Xekros said:

 

@4thstringer How do the traps ignore obeys?

They don't, but they cannot interact with the markers.

[Rubyhathunger]

36 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

You need speed for corner explosives, which means you will really miss queeg, but the Sarge and mounted guard x2 are essential.  Their sorrows are mobile as hell, but i think a lawyer could mess that up by picking up some markers.  

Phiona might be an ok beater choice here.  

Thank you, I'll try that, I could use a sarge model as proxie for queeg

[4thstringer]

34 minutes ago, Xekros said:

My first thought is Riotbreakers or the Emmisary for Crowd Control. Probably the Riotbreakers, since they can't be obeyed themselves, unlike the Emmisary. Irreducible damage does hurt against armor, but at least Z can't make you throw it in the wrong direction.

@4thstringer How do the traps ignore obeys?

Usually I would like the idea of riotbreakers into this, but they are so slow that if the marker is anywhere but the middle they may be irrelevant

[Regelridderen]

Might I say, that the premise/format could be tweaked a bit for M3E. Since you won't know, who your opponents master will be, until you've announced your own.

So maybe start with a : I choose Master A for Schemes and Strategies XYZ.

When opponent reveals Master ?, I expand my crew with ???, because of this and that?

[Myyrä]

6 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Might I say, that the premise/format could be tweaked a bit for M3E. Since you won't know, who your opponents master will be, until you've announced your own.

So maybe start with a : I choose Master A for Schemes and Strategies XYZ.

When opponent reveals Master ?, I expand my crew with ???, because of this and that?

It used to be just faction, strategy and schemes in the second edition. The reason I included master this time, is because most of the list building happens after you know the opponent's master, and unless you have messed up in a really spectacular fashion before that, you should have a relatively suitable master chosen at that point.

If you want to open up your own crewbuilding process more, go right ahead. I would be interested to read about it. I, however, didn't feel like it would add too much to the format.

[Adran]

25 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Might I say, that the premise/format could be tweaked a bit for M3E. Since you won't know, who your opponents master will be, until you've announced your own.

So maybe start with a : I choose Master A for Schemes and Strategies XYZ.

When opponent reveals Master ?, I expand my crew with ???, because of this and that?

This is more realistic to the new edition, but you are relying on time a lot more in the forum. You have to post most of the information, get people to respond with a master choice, and then announce your master choice, and in a forum you will be getting people who don't read the thread until after you made the master announcement posting anyway.

I'm interested if being attacker/defender would make a difference to model choice. I don't know if it would make much difference to me, but I've not played all that many M3 games

 

[Myyrä]

22 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'm interested if being attacker/defender would make a difference to model choice. I don't know if it would make much difference to me, but I've not played all that many M3 games

I feel like that only matters if the terrain favors some side of the table considerably.

[le_wahou]

We also tend to draw deployment/strat/scheme, choose faction and masters the day before playing. This leaves us some time to think about models. When we meet, we usually ask another player to prepare the table. It may change slightly our teams, but it never changed masters.

[Clement]

28 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I feel like that only matters if the terrain favors some side of the table considerably.

Very much this.  As an example, let's say one side of the board has a nice viewing platform on it that if you put Riflemen on it (or something else with Sniper) could command a pretty large area of the board.  As the attacker, you can ensure you're on the right side of the board to take advantage of that.

[Cursed25]

In fact if you truly want to stay within M3e format you should only give us the strat, schemes, deployment and faction of the opponent! Because as said earlier you and opponent will learn the factions at the same time and after that the leaders! So technically you will choose your leader with only these info in mind (strat, schemes, deployment and factions)

 

But as Adran said this would complicate a lot this thread, so I think Myyra's format is good! Just don't build your crew for his scenario with : oh! since I'm playing agaisnt Leader XYZ I will pick this leader because it counters him really well!'' You will only fool yourself because in true game you won't know which leader will be taken!

 

I think the best way to use these kind of thread is to first look at known infos (strat, schemes, deployment and factions), choose your leader with these in mind! And after that you build your crew with the opponent's Leader chosen in mind! So to help us be realistic put the deployment, strat and schemes first in the top of the post and give us the opponent master at the end of the post?

[Cronex13]

Love the idea for the thread. I've got a tourney coming up in 2 weeks and we just had the scenarios released to us, so my friend and I are gonna do a practice of all 3 games. I'll start by listing my collection and then the 3 games. Please let me know any ideas you have!

Marshall: Lady J, Scales, The Judge, a billion Death Marshalls (max of 3 lol), a DM recruiter, and an Excorcist.

Guard: Dashel, modelsub Dispatch, Queeg, 1 Executioner, 2 mounted guard, 2 riflemen, 4 guild guard, 4 guild hounds, 1 Warden

Augmented: Hoffman, Mechanical Attendant, (not sure how to sub Melissa KORE), 3 hunters, Guardian, watcher, the aforementioned warden.

Elite: Lucius, Totem, (not sure how to sub Alan or Agent 46), 2 lawyers, 2 False witnesses subbed, 2 investigators subbed.

Asylum: Grimwell, Heartsbane, 2 Orderlies

Miscellaneous: Francisco, Pale Rider, Brutal Em, Austringer.

Game #1
Deployment: Corner
Strategy: Turf War
3. Harness the Ley Line
6. Hold Up Their Forces
7. Take Prisoner
9. Outflank
12. Claim Jump

Game#2
Deployment: Flank
Strategy: Plane Explosives
1.Detonate Charges
2. Breakthrough
5. Dig Their Graves
10. Assassinate
11. Deliver a Message

Game#3
Deployment: Standard
Strategy: Corrupted Idols
4. Search the Ruins
5. Dig Their Graves
8. Power Ritual
12. Claim Jump
13. Vendetta

[Myyrä]

10 hours ago, Cronex13 said:

Love the idea for the thread. I've got a tourney coming up in 2 weeks and we just had the scenarios released to us, so my friend and I are gonna do a practice of all 3 games. I'll start by listing my collection and then the 3 games. Please let me know any ideas you have!

Marshall: Lady J, Scales, The Judge, a billion Death Marshalls (max of 3 lol), a DM recruiter, and an Excorcist.

Guard: Dashel, modelsub Dispatch, Queeg, 1 Executioner, 2 mounted guard, 2 riflemen, 4 guild guard, 4 guild hounds, 1 Warden

Augmented: Hoffman, Mechanical Attendant, (not sure how to sub Melissa KORE), 3 hunters, Guardian, watcher, the aforementioned warden.

Elite: Lucius, Totem, (not sure how to sub Alan or Agent 46), 2 lawyers, 2 False witnesses subbed, 2 investigators subbed.

Asylum: Grimwell, Heartsbane, 2 Orderlies

Miscellaneous: Francisco, Pale Rider, Brutal Em, Austringer.

Game #1
Deployment: Corner
Strategy: Turf War
3. Harness the Ley Line
6. Hold Up Their Forces
7. Take Prisoner
9. Outflank
12. Claim Jump

This first list might feel somewhat familiar to you for some reason. It's not just your imagination, it's just that I think this is pretty much the best crew you can field with your collection.

Size: 50 - Pool: 8

Leader:

  Lady Justice

    Lead-Lined Coat

Totem(s):

  Scales of Justice

Hires:

  The Judge

  Dr. Grimwell

  Pale Rider

  Death Marshal

  Death Marshal 2

 

This is very killy scenario, so you'll want a very killy crew. The death marshals are there to interact with the turf markers, so that the others don't have to. Honestly, this crew with slight changes might be your best bet in all the games, but I included two others just for variety's sake.

 

10 hours ago, Cronex13 said:

Game#2
Deployment: Flank
Strategy: Plane Explosives
1.Detonate Charges
2. Breakthrough
5. Dig Their Graves
10. Assassinate
11. Deliver a Message

Size: 50 - Pool: 4

Leader:

  Charles Hoffman

Totem(s):

  Mechanical Attendant

Hires:

  Melissa K.O.R.E.

  Guardian

  Warden

  Hunter

  Hunter 2

  Hunter 3

 

Not a very inspired list, considering it contains pretty much all the augmented models you have. It should work okayish, but I think you really need a few more key models if you want to play Hoffman more. Good buys would include Mobile Toolkit, Peacekeeper, Howard and Joss.

10 hours ago, Cronex13 said:

Game#3
Deployment: Standard
Strategy: Corrupted Idols
4. Search the Ruins
5. Dig Their Graves
8. Power Ritual
12. Claim Jump
13. Vendetta

Size: 50 - Pool: 5

Leader:

  Dashel Barker

Totem(s):

  The Dispatcher

Hires:

  Rifleman

  Rifleman 2

  Mounted Guard

  Mounted Guard 2

  Lady Justice

 

Justice and Riflemen can hunt enemy models and Mounted Guards can hopefully get markers where you need them. Dashel can do Dashel things and help Riflemen in keeping your side of the table clean.

[Cronex13]

I enjoy the lists. I was reading through a different thread, and saw that everyone places Hoffman in the top tier for guild, and having not played him in not entirely sure why? He seems to only bring stuff for his keyword, and maybe I'm missing something from Arcanists side of things but besides the guardian, everything else seems meh... But that's for another tactica. That in mind, giving 3 hunters strat markers and having Hoffman give them all Fast, maybe have a guardian Toss one of them all on turn 1 is an excellent way to get those markers up the board quickly, and them all having the end of turn push will help them adjust position after. I do like that.

One thing I was also noticing is that I can't seem to think of any scenario where bringing Lucius is a good pick. I recognize that he's a powerful master but am unsure where to apply him as he doesn't seem to benefit any particular strats. Thoughts?

[Xekros]

5 hours ago, Myyrä said:

This first list might feel somewhat familiar to you for some reason. It's not just your imagination, it's just that I think this is pretty much the best crew you can field with your collection.

Size: 50 - Pool: 8

Leader:

  Lady Justice

    Lead-Lined Coat

Totem(s):

  Scales of Justice

Hires:

  The Judge

  Dr. Grimwell

  Pale Rider

  Death Marshal

  Death Marshal 2

 

This is very killy scenario, so you'll want a very killy crew. The death marshals are there to interact with the turf markers, so that the others don't have to. Honestly, this crew with slight changes might be your best bet in all the games, but I included two others just for variety's sake.

It's certainly the most cohesive list I see from those models, my only thoughts would be to add another LLC (judge/rider probably), and swap in an exorcist for Grimwell or a DM if the opponent is running a heavy summoner.

As for Augmented, it hits hard, is hard to take down, and has a lot of little pushes throughout. Also Joss and Langston.

[Cronex13]

9 minutes ago, Xekros said:

It's certainly the most cohesive list I see from those models, my only thoughts would be to add another LLC (judge/rider probably), and swap in an exorcist for Grimwell or a DM if the opponent is running a heavy summoner.

As for Augmented, it hits hard, is hard to take down, and has a lot of little pushes throughout. Also Joss and Langston.

I definitely enjoy LLC on the rider, it REALLY makes a difference in keeping him alive long enough to do stuff.

I DO have an arcanist buddy from whom I could borrow some stuff, so assuming I had access to Joss and Langston for that list, how would you modify?

[Xekros]

From @Myyrä's list, I'd say drop K.O.R.E. and 2 Hunters to add Joss, Langston, abd a Watcher.

Third Floor Wars just did a podcast about Hoffman, which is where I'm getting a lot of my info, so probably just listen to that instead.

[Cronex13]

Doing so now

[Myyrä]

3 hours ago, Cronex13 said:

One thing I was also noticing is that I can't seem to think of any scenario where bringing Lucius is a good pick. I recognize that he's a powerful master but am unsure where to apply him as he doesn't seem to benefit any particular strats. Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure Lucius is a trap, but haven't really played him in this edition. Maybe someone would like to prove me wrong.

9 minutes ago, Xekros said:

From @Myyrä's list, I'd say drop K.O.R.E. and 2 Hunters to add Joss, Langston, abd a Watcher.

Third Floor Wars just did a podcast about Hoffman, which is where I'm getting a lot of my info, so probably just listen to that instead.

I like Melissa, so I would probably keep her and drop all hunters instead. But I guess your thing works too. Here's something I said about Arcanist Hoffman lists in another thread:

On 9/28/2019 at 6:27 PM, Myyrä said:

I dominated one small tournament with a list that looked basically like this

New Charles Hoffman Crew (Arcanists)

Size: 50 - Pool: 5

Leader:

  Charles Hoffman

Totem(s):

  Mechanical Attendant

Hires:

  Joss

  Mobile Toolkit

  Howard Langston

    Diesel Engine

  Guardian

    Magical Training

  Warden

  Watcher

There's quite a bit of room for variation there depending on what you are facing. You can also take Peacekeeper or Melissa just fine if they fit the scenario better. Soulstone miners are also good if you can get use out of their mobility. Arcane Emissary is a trap and not worth it in my opinion, although you can take Effigy that turns into emissary on turn 3.

 

[Xekros]

31 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I like Melissa, so I would probably keep her and drop all hunters instead. But I guess your thing works too.

I'm realizing I tend to swap by station rather than actual cost rather instinctively, thanks for pointing that out, and, reading Melissa's card, I actually quite like her as well. That said, for pool 2 specifically, I think the extra movement granted by the Hunter is more valuable, due to the schemes and strat rewarding positioning more than killing overall.

I imagine you're probably using the Clockwork Grenade more than Transfer Power for her bonus action?

[Cronex13]

-gets giddy- guys, turns out a buddy had a spare Langston and Joss so I just got those permanently. So happy, cuz Langston is such a huge card drain for the enemy