Full Load (Pigapult)

[Spyrer]

As i read the text, the shockwave is basically a 30mm marker that you place under the model and then pulse from there. Does this mean that if you fire a 40mm base model with the pigapult the shockwave will only hit the model that landed on the shockwave, is this intentional or a weird rule conundrum.

[CD1248]

You've right that it's a 30mm marker placed under the model.

You're technically right that a 40mm model could block the marker from hitting anything else, but there are two conisderations that make this unlikely to ever occur:

1. Being Sz1, the model won't block LOS to anything Sz2 or greater, even though it's fully covering the marker.

2. The only model the Pigapult can possibly throw that has a 40mm base is Pere Ravage, unless I'm missing something. 

[Spyrer]

the marker doesn't have ht, but since it is a larger base than the marker it blocks all los to it for #1.

[Clement]

7 hours ago, Spyrer said:

the marker doesn't have ht, but since it is a larger base than the marker it blocks all los to it for #1.

Here's the relevant rules text for this discussion.

Quote

When drawing LoS between two objects any intervening models or terrain with a Size or Height that is lower than either of the two objects is ignored.

In this case the two objects you're drawing LoS between are the model who may or may not be hit with the shockwave and the shockwave marker. The intervening model is the 40mm based, sz 1 model you've placed with Full Load.

Assuming the model we're checking is Sz 2+, the intervening model is lower then "either of the two objects" and is thus ignored.  If it's a sz 1 model, then LoS would be blocked.

If you're channeling 2e LoS rules (it used to work the way you describe), 2e made it work by issuing an faq entry that literally changed how LoS was calculated in the event that a marker was completely under a model.  3e hasn't done that (at least not yet).

Quote

2. The only model the Pigapult can possibly throw that has a 40mm base is Pere Ravage, unless I'm missing something. 

I mean, technically Gupps who are carrying the Two Gremlins in a Ghillie Suit upgrade would technically work?  Not sure why you'd do that, but it would work.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Clement
Gupps!

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Clement said:

If you're channeling 2e LoS rules (it used to work the way you describe), 2e made it work by issuing an faq entry that literally changed how LoS was calculated in the event that a marker was completely under a model.  3e hasn't done that (at least not yet).

For the record, this was the M2E FAQ entry:

Quote

45. If a model on a 30mm base is positioned perfectly on top of a 30mm Scheme Marker (or similar) such that the Marker is completely covered, can other models draw LoS to the Marker?
Yes. A model on a 40mm base or larger would be able to block LoS to the Marker, but a 30mm base does not block LoS (nor can it stop another model from being in base contact with the Marker).

M3E has the explicit statement saying this first part but not the second.

Quote

If a model is standing perfectly atop a Marker with the same base size (such as a model on a 30mm base stand- ing perfectly atop a 30mm Marker), it does not block sight lines drawn to that Marker.

 

[Myyrä]

I'm not actually at all convinced that Full Load drops a shockwave marker at all. If we compare the wording with Rasputina

Quote

Instead of Dropping a Shockwave Marker, this Action may center its Shockwave on an Ice Pillar Marker within range.

it seems that centering shockwave on something means measuring the resulting pulse from that thing. Looks like Full Load is intended to work the same way.

[Clement]

5 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I'm not actually at all convinced that Full Load drops a shockwave marker at all. If we compare the wording with Rasputina

it seems that centering shockwave on something means measuring the resulting pulse from that thing. Looks like Full Load is intended to work the same way.

if that's the case, then since it's a pulse the shockwave cannot damage the model placed, which makes the trigger on Full Load make no sense.

Quote

 "Loaded" Ammo: If the chosen model is a Stuffed piglet and it was not killed by this Action, it may take the Bacon Bomb action.

For that trigger to do anything, the shockwave HAS to effect the model being placed, which only works if the marker is under the target.  Otherwise the stuffed piglet wouldn't test (since it's the origin of the pulse) and could never be "killed by this action".

It could use an FAQ though, there was a LOT of confusion over Pigapult vs. Wong (who has a similar trick to Raspy)

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, Clement said:

if that's the case, then since it's a pulse the shockwave cannot damage the model placed, which makes the trigger on Full Load make no sense.

For that trigger to do anything, the shockwave HAS to effect the model being placed, which only works if the marker is under the target.  Otherwise the stuffed piglet wouldn't test (since it's the origin of the pulse) and could never be "killed by this action".

It could use an FAQ though, there was a LOT of confusion over Pigapult vs. Wong (who has a similar trick to Raspy)

Did you even read the rules of the shockwave before coming up with that one?

Quote

Any model that the Marker touches or that is affected by the must pass the simple duel noted in the Shockwave or suffer its effects.

I have no trouble believing the model is touching itself. (heh heh)

Besides, if centering shockwave means placing a 30mm marker in the center of whatever, Raspy's ice pillar targeting simply wouldn't work.

[CD1248]

23 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Did you even read the rules of the shockwave before coming up with that one?

Did you? effects specifically do not affect the object generating them, which would be the thrown model if no shockwave marker was involved, thus rendering the trigger useless.

Also, in the case of Rasputina's ability it specifically tells you to do something "instead" of dropping a marker. No such instruction is present on the Pigapult.

The two rules are aesthetically similar, but functionally different, and both work as intended within the rules framework.

[Myyrä]

31 minutes ago, CD1248 said:

Did you? effects specifically do not affect the object generating them, which would be the thrown model if no shockwave marker was involved, thus rendering the trigger useless.

The pulse was not the relevant part.

[CD1248]

33 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

The pulse was not the relevant part.

It absolutely is. If a model is the generating object of a then that model is not affected by that . Nothing in the rules we're talking about modifies that, so if Full Load didn't drop a marker the model thrown couldn' t be affected.

[Rathnard]

20 hours ago, Clement said:

if that's the case, then since it's a pulse the shockwave cannot damage the model placed, which makes the trigger on Full Load make no sense.

...

For that trigger to do anything, the shockwave HAS to effect the model being placed, which only works if the marker is under the target.  Otherwise the stuffed piglet wouldn't test (since it's the origin of the pulse) and could never be "killed by this action".

For what it's worth, even if the shockwave doesn't damage the model you placed, the trigger still makes sense when you consider enemy abilities like Black Blood or Demise.

On the other hand, Full Load works well in conjunction with Hard knock life to give the "ammunition" fast & glowy. AND Wong has a similar ability (uncontrollable magic) which pretty clearly uses the model as the shockwave marker (and hence wouldn't force a shockwave test on that model).

Personally i think Full Load damages the friendly model you place, but i can see how it could be interpreted the other way. So it definitely warrants an FAQ.

 

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Rathnard said:

For what it's worth, even if the shockwave doesn't damage the model you placed, the trigger still makes sense when you consider enemy abilities like Black Blood or Demise.

The issue is the “was not Killed by this Action.”

If the pig was killed -during- the Action by Hazardous terrain, Black Blood, some demise effect, or some other effect, the pig would not have been “Killed by this Action”.  The rules for Killed differentiate the different damage sources:

Quote

Killed models are always considered to be killed by the model that generated the Action or Ability that killed them (as well as by that model’s Crew). If a model is killed by another effect (such as a Condition or Hazardous Terrain), it is not considered to have been killed by any player, model, or Crew.

The only way for the action to kill the pig is if it does damage to it directly.

 

 

[CD1248]

4 hours ago, Rathnard said:

Personally i think Full Load damages the friendly model you place, but i can see how it could be interpreted the other way. So it definitely warrants an FAQ.

 

Ok, walk me through how it could be interpreted the other way, using just the rules text of Full Load.

Because from what I can tell the only confusion comes from people looking at different rules on different cards with different rules text, and getting it in their head that Full Load must work the same because they both involve some modification to standard Shockwaves.