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DarrenG

New player - does the cultural appropriation bother anyone else?

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7 minutes ago, DarrenG said:

 

But hey, 22 downvotes and four pages of people telling me what they want me to have said? I don't think this is the game for me, so thanks for the time. 

Or you were just wrong and it has nothing to do with the game at all. Your loss. Great game. 

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I am French and I am offended :p.

My country has been beaten down by the Guild and is a great mess without any representation in the Malifaux universe whatsoever.

Please bring a bit of French stereotype to the game :D. I won't mind a moustache crew :D

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16 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

I am French and I am offended :p.

My country has been beaten down by the Guild and is a great mess without any representation in the Malifaux universe whatsoever.

Please bring a bit of French stereotype to the game :D. I won't mind a moustache crew :D

Hey! You already have the LaCroix family! And Gautreaux Bokor is pronouced in a very French way!

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38 minutes ago, DarrenG said:

I've just been reading over the replies.

I did post the same question on Reddit about a week prior and sadly by the time I got back to catch up on it I found that it had been closed. A lot of the comments weren't too constructive, kinda veering off into abuse, accusations of 'political correctness agendas', SJW-insults, that kind of thing. I had kinda hoped that the conversation would be a bit more convivial on the official forum. 

To clarify a few of the questions, I don't work with any organisations or publication groups intent on censorship, like @Necrokamo mentioned. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I'm not asking that anyone be offended on the behalf of anybody else like @Scoffer mentioned and I'm not telling anybody that they should be offended, like @katadder mentioned - in fact, I didn't even use the word 'offended' in my original post at all. Nor did I say that I want, as Scoffer put it, everyone involved to immediately stop doing things they were doing and start making me comfortable.

But hey, 22 downvotes and four pages of people telling me what they want me to have said? I don't think this is the game for me, so thanks for the time. 

By my count you have two pages of people riffing, a page and half of honest discussion on the subject and a half page of non-sequiturs. I didn't see anyone telling you what you should say in response. You also didn't actually respond to anyone's commentary on the subject; and this says to me what I've mentioned to others, that your post was not made in good faith and possibly was intended to stir the pot, which is exactly the response that was received. I'm saddened that if you were honest you wouldn't be willing to at least discuss what you have problems with further and completely leave the game, which I've heard is one of the best miniatures games on the market.

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Well, good luck in the next forum where they create the same post, @DarrenG.  With any luck, you may make comments more often or we may see you here in another 9 months.

This community takes time with this game and if they had felt that there was something offensive in it I don't think they will need a group to claim for them.  It amazes me that people did not realize that this publication with a clear SJW theme was intended to see the community burn rather than contribute something.

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1 minute ago, Necrokamo said:

Well, good luck in the next forum where they create the same post, @DarrenG.  With any luck, you may make comments more often or we may see you here in another 9 months.

This community takes time with this game and if they had felt that there was something offensive in it I don't think they will need a group to claim for them.  It amazes me that people did not realize that this publication with a clear SJW theme was intended to see the community burn rather than contribute something.

At least he got a few days of attention out of it!

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6 minutes ago, DarrenG said:

I've just been reading over the replies.

I did post the same question on Reddit about a week prior and sadly by the time I got back to catch up on it I found that it had been closed. A lot of the comments weren't too constructive, kinda veering off into abuse, accusations of 'political correctness agendas', SJW-insults, that kind of thing. I had kinda hoped that the conversation would be a bit more convivial on the official forum. 

To clarify a few of the questions, I don't work with any organisations or publication groups intent on censorship, like @Necrokamo mentioned. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I'm not asking that anyone be offended on the behalf of anybody else like @Scoffer mentioned and I'm not telling anybody that they should be offended, like @katadder mentioned - in fact, I didn't even use the word 'offended' in my original post at all. Nor did I say that I want, as Scoffer put it, everyone involved to immediately stop doing things they were doing and start making me comfortable.

But hey, 22 downvotes and four pages of people telling me what they want me to have said? I don't think this is the game for me, so thanks for the time. 

We always welcome concerns and suggestions, @DarrenG. We want all our players to feel like they can bring up the tough issues that may arise during play or in review of the materials. It never hurts to put it out to the Malifaux/Wyrd community at large, and I thank you for being willing to do so. We always appreciate respectful discussion among members, and I hope that will continue going forward. Not everyone is going to agree with each other on everything, but it's important that everyone can walk away from a discussion without feeling personally attacked or belittled for their views on a situation, and I'm sorry that it seems you're in this predicament. I encourage you to still seek out players in your area for games, for our player base is still by far and large the most wonderful and respectful group of players of any game I've had the good (or bad) fortune to play. 

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1 hour ago, DarrenG said:

I don't work with any organisations or publication groups intent on censorship, like @Necrokamo mentioned. I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

That's something that someone working for them would say...

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36 minutes ago, Necrokamo said:

This community takes time with this game and if they had felt that there was something offensive in it I don't think they will need a group to claim for them.  It amazes me that people did not realize that this publication with a clear SJW theme was intended to see the community burn rather than contribute something.

This being the internet we should actually be proud this didn't turn into a total dumpster fire. No company is perfect. There was outcry over the easter viks model that she was too scantly clad. Personally I had no issue with it. If I didn't like it I didn't have to buy it. Do I think they should not do one again? Nope never hurts to cater to all types which their range of models does really well. Their models come in all shapes and sizes.
The good thing these days is you have a choice. Yes you can use that choice to be offended by everything that doesn't agree with your view. You can choice so say there is pages and pages of messages here disagreeing with you. You can choice to ignore that some actually agreed with you. In short you can choice to be you. So you go do you. Luckily this isn't some other community that didn't even attempt to discuss the topic. Is everything perfect? nope. The world is an imperfect place.

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On 9/23/2019 at 12:59 AM, DarrenG said:

seem to have a LOT of fetishised exoticism with how it approaches characters from other cultures.

I mean, here's the problem I had with the start to the discussion that left a hostile taste in the mouth. At best, it feels like you're implying that people that enjoy these models are lecherous, and possibly racist. Saying to devoted Wong players "do you just turn a blind eye to the cultural appropriation?" from a standpoint that clearly doesn't understand that Wong is literally stealing Ten Thunders things that don't belong to him as a way of life, is just stirring a pot for stirring a pot's sake. There is no constructive way to move forward on this. If you didn't expect people to make behavioral changes based on your observations, and you were to pick how the conversation might have gone, what did you envision? "Yeah I converted his model into a more generic boomer mage and removed all hints of Eastern influence because I too find it 'uncomfortable'"? Or possibly "Yep, it's totally racist, and I play it anyway."? Obviously most people don't have a problem with it, and having had the experience on the Reddit forums of widespread negative response, to come these forums and be shocked at a widespread negative response, was... a bold strategy, Cotton. 

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2 hours ago, DarrenG said:

I've just been reading over the replies.

I did post the same question on Reddit about a week prior and sadly by the time I got back to catch up on it I found that it had been closed. A lot of the comments weren't too constructive, kinda veering off into abuse, accusations of 'political correctness agendas', SJW-insults, that kind of thing. I had kinda hoped that the conversation would be a bit more convivial on the official forum. 

To clarify a few of the questions, I don't work with any organisations or publication groups intent on censorship, like @Necrokamo mentioned. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I'm not asking that anyone be offended on the behalf of anybody else like @Scoffer mentioned and I'm not telling anybody that they should be offended, like @katadder mentioned - in fact, I didn't even use the word 'offended' in my original post at all. Nor did I say that I want, as Scoffer put it, everyone involved to immediately stop doing things they were doing and start making me comfortable.

But hey, 22 downvotes and four pages of people telling me what they want me to have said? I don't think this is the game for me, so thanks for the time. 

They're not "downvotes", you have the meaning if you leave the cursor on top of the symbol: "Respectfully disagree". Which means that you're probably wrong, and your vision is not shared with some of the people around here.

The game is amazing btw, and the community is really good, anyone looking for help, advice or a place to start is always welcome. 

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2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

With OP gone, I think I'm done with the thread.

Does anyone know if there is a way to turn off notifications for this post? Have turned off reply ones, but still getting notifications for reacts and quotes.

Top right corner of the thread. Hit the follow button and change from there.

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15 hours ago, ShinChan said:

They're not "downvotes", you have the meaning if you leave the cursor on top of the symbol: "Respectfully disagree". Which means that you're probably wrong, and your vision is not shared with some of the people around here.

Having people disagree with you doesn't mean you are wrong. It means you are holding unpopular opinions. There's probably around 100 million Americans that disargee with climate scientists, but the scientists are still right (or more right than anyone else).

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Since it's clear that the bop has no interest in furthering this conversation, I would like to do it.

 

Does anyone have anything in the models or characters or story in the game that has made them uncomfortable in any way? And if so, what have you done to respond to or resolve them?

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8 minutes ago, Yew Arcane said:

Does anyone have anything in the models or characters or story in the game that has made them uncomfortable in any way? And if so, what have you done to respond to or resolve them?

I’ll bite.

I am uncomfortable with any female characters that are depicted with too much skin, or depicted in a provocative manner. I simply do not purchase those models, and have avoided investing in Keywords where such a model may be too central to the crew functioning.

For those that are wondering, this does derive from my Christian beliefs. 

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42 minutes ago, Yew Arcane said:

Since it's clear that the bop has no interest in furthering this conversation, I would like to do it.

 

Does anyone have anything in the models or characters or story in the game that has made them uncomfortable in any way? And if so, what have you done to respond to or resolve them?

I dont like Seamus. All his stories make me sad, but I guess its kind of the point. I always feel a bit weird when people tell me they love their "undead hookers"

Its a big part of why Ressers are my most hated faction, and why I love smashing Seamus' face in whenever hes across the table from me.

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I avoided getting Nekima because of her sculpt but now that Lilith was kicked out of tournament play I felt forced to pick Nekima up since I still want to play Nephilim. I won't be doing any demos with her though. 

I haven't really bought into the ten Thunders except for McCabe and Lynch and I don't own gremlins so I guess I'm avoiding the worst appropriation models but it's not because I'm trying to be PC, it's mostly that the anesthetics aren't my cup of tea.

I have the Ortegas but I have no idea if they're considered offensive to anyone? They're mostly cowboys with Spanish names and actions. One of them has a Sombrero and the others are just playing on general cowboy tropes in my eyes. 

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It's a creepy world of tragedy and murder.  People are more than happy to play a game with violence and killing, but they balk at plastic skin or wring their hands at perceived cultural insensitivity.  Frankly, I've always found this to be hypocrisy, and once one has accepted they are more than happy to simulate murder and mayhem, the platform for further pontification seems fairly flimsy.

If anything, I think the sanitization of Victorian/Edwardian social and cultural inequities in games like Malifaux and Through the Breach are greater sins than models with short skirts or a japanese-themed samurai miniature.  Steampunk and alternate history titles almost always ride right past the various forms of oppression (racial, gender, sexual, religious, cultural, etc) and instead we see empowered women and racial equality assumed as a given.  I think this "Edwardian Narnia," (to borrow the phrase from a great PBS show) where class is the only distinction that is depicted, does far more to minimize and even trivialize the harm and marginalization faced by minorities.

As an Asian person, I'm not the least bit offended by the Chinese and Japanese models.  But what does sort of bother me is the wholesale importation of modern sensibilities into the setting, because I think ignoring bias is worse than depicting it.   Not that my opinion carries more weight because of some genetic accident that resulted in me being Chinese.  But I've just never understood this dynamic.  

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3 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

It's a creepy world of tragedy and murder.  People are more than happy to play a game with violence and killing, but they balk at plastic skin or wring their hands at perceived cultural insensitivity.  Frankly, I've always found this to be hypocrisy, and once one has accepted they are more than happy to simulate murder and mayhem, the platform for further pontification seems fairly flimsy.

If anything, I think the sanitization of Victorian/Edwardian social and cultural inequities in games like Malifaux and Through the Breach are greater sins than models with short skirts or a japanese-themed samurai miniature.  Steampunk and alternate history titles almost always ride right past the various forms of oppression (racial, gender, sexual, religious, cultural, etc) and instead we see empowered women and racial equality assumed as a given.  I think this "Edwardian Narnia," (to borrow the phrase from a great PBS show) where class is the only distinction that is depicted, does far more to minimize and even trivialize the harm and marginalization faced by minorities.

As an Asian person, I'm not the least bit offended by the Chinese and Japanese models.  But what does sort of bother me is the wholesale importation of modern sensibilities into the setting, because I think ignoring bias is worse than depicting it.   Not that my opinion carries more weight because of some genetic accident that resulted in me being Chinese.  But I've just never understood this dynamic.  

I am glad you brought this up!

Personally, the reason I am able to happily play a game with violence and killing, whilst still balking at plastic skin, is because I find I am able to more easily stop myself from being influenced by the former than the latter. To elaborate, when I play Hamelin and use his brainwashed, disease-ridden children as pawns to Plant Explosives* before being eaten by a few Rats, or a gigantic spider-demon, I do not bring that home to my family. I don't fill my kids with pox, and I don't have them try to commit acts of terrorism. I don't harbor any secret desire to do so, nor do I feel one developing. I am a very image oriented person though. When I see models like Youko, or M2E Nekima, their exposed skin does catch my attention initially, and my firm conviction is that the only exposed skin I should expose myself to is my Wife's. I feel to do the opposite is to dishonor her, and my God (again, my conviction is derived from my religious beliefs). 

All that being said, I would never try to shame anyone from feeling differently than I do about the skin issue, nor would I insist on my perspective being catered to. 

*Yes, I know they are Insignificant...

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36 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Personally, the reason I am able to happily play a game with violence and killing, whilst still balking at plastic skin, is because I find I am able to more easily stop myself from being influenced by the former than the latter.

Yes, this is the standard refrain.  And there's some truth to it.  Playing a game with violence is not going to make you violent.  But playing a game with short skirts is not going to make you promiscuous.  In fact, as numerous studies have proven, abstinence-only education and pretending sex doesn't exist is ineffective.  That's one reason why the Bible Belt consistently has among the highest (and often the highest) rates of divorce, teen pregnancy and abortion in the United States.  

As you noted, images have power.  Sex and violence are two of the most provocative images there are.  But the reality is you've chosen to desensitize yourself to one (or hypersensitize yourself to the other).  Now, to be sure, you are entirely within your rights to define your own comfort levels.  And to base those sentiments on whatever value systems or justifications as you find prudent. 

Although I feel it's important to point out that you are not calling for the models you personally dislike to be banned, and you're not asserting an objective issue with them, but rather you are articulating why your subjective experience with them is negative.  In other words, you're not trying to press your assessment on other people.  That's different than the cultural appropriation argument, because the underlying assertion there is that if the models indeed are culturally exploitative, then they are in an objective sense and should be changed or eliminated.

To the extent I have any issue with the Malifaux models, it's two fold.  One, I think minority groups are shown as "model minorities," which is a dynamic that is less harmful than others to be sure, but it's still less-than-ideal.  And I also take issue with giving the Edwardian period a pass by skating over the very real oppression of racial, gender, sexual orientations, religious and cultural groups.

For instance, someone in the Explorer's Society forum suggested a British explorer and African porter type master/totem duo.  That's a team that will probably never get made, because of obvious concerns with the imagery.  But to me, rather than omitting it and pretending the world of Malifaux doesn't see color, I would be more proud to support a company that did root these issues in the setting.

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52 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

It's a creepy world of tragedy and murder.  People are more than happy to play a game with violence and killing, but they balk at plastic skin or wring their hands at perceived cultural insensitivity.  Frankly, I've always found this to be hypocrisy, and once one has accepted they are more than happy to simulate murder and mayhem, the platform for further pontification seems fairly flimsy.

This is an odd slippery slope argument. Usually, slippery slope is used to warn against that first action being taken, but here you say "because you are comfortable with X you should also accept Y" (which I guess is more of a sunk cost but idk)

This is, I think, a falsity. Just because you are comfortable with one thing does not you need to be comefortable with something else, particularly if that other thing is an escalation or only laterally or pseudo-comparable. As a specific example, when bring sex into dnd there is a line between "fade to black" and "graffic detail." Just because a player is ok with fade to black does not make them a hypocrite for being offput by a play-by-play. 

This is called boundary setting, and it is something that all adults do and is nothing to be ashamed of. I guarantee everyone has a boundary they are unwilling to cross, even you. To call it "hypocracy" is I think a guilt trip.

There are lots of good reasons to accept the "murder and mayhem" and not the other grimdark aspects. One potential reason is that the murder mayhem is so far removed from our every day sensibilies that we cant help but see it as absurd, but other aspects may not be as far removed, like racial tensions or culture. 

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1 minute ago, Mycellanious said:

Usually, slippery slope is used to warn against that first action being taken, but here you say "because you are comfortable with X you should also accept Y" (which I guess is more of a sunk cost but idk)

This is an incorrect analysis.  I'm not saying you should accept sex because you accept violence.  I'm saying violence is generally recognized as being worse than consensual sex, and so standards that treat sex more harshly than violence are hypocritical.  

When you say you'll gladly play a game where you murder someone, but you won't do it if the bit of plastic has a skirt above the knee, you are choosing to hold depictions of violence to a much lower standard.

It's also related to power dynamics to determine what clothing is appropriate for female models in the first place.  Who are you to define proper clothing for anyone other than yourself?  Why is it more acceptable to be a male demon in plate mail than a female demon in a bikini?  

But that's an entirely different can of worms.  Whereas the violence aspect is definitely more equal opportunity (everyone dies in Malifaux, sometimes more than once).

5 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

One potential reason is that the murder mayhem is so far removed from our every day sensibilies that we cant help but see it as absurd, but other aspects may not be as far removed, like racial tensions or culture. 

People who want to restrict some depictions (typically sex, but in this instance also cultural) while permitting others often fall back on this "I'm not going to go on a killing spree defense."  It's not only questionable because, as I mentioned, it treats worse acts with less rigor than things that are "less bad," maybe not bad at all, and even potentially positive but also it's fundamentally an argument from privilege.  Many people do not find violence (which doesn't have to be murder) as distant as sex or racism.

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1 hour ago, Yew Arcane said:

Since it's clear that the bop has no interest in furthering this conversation, I would like to do it.

 

Does anyone have anything in the models or characters or story in the game that has made them uncomfortable in any way? And if so, what have you done to respond to or resolve them?

I wasn't particularly a fan of the 2nd ed Ronin.   Mostly because they were so improbably dressed for what their "role" was according to their fluff and rules.  If I handed that card (with no art) to someone and showed them the m2e fluff about them being leaderless mercenary folk drawn to the Viktorias out of a need for community, there's *nothing* that would lead you to, or even suggest, "lingerie and katanas".  I am a bigger fan of the 1e and 3e ronin who dress a bit more logically (weird poses aside).

Don't get me wrong, models who mechanically are meant to be desirable (Rotten Belles, etc) I have less of an issue with, because it's very much a part of the character. (even if, in my own head cannon anyway, they're still shambling zombies just cosplaying as sexy)  If you look at the fluff and the card for them, you can likely guess you're getting "sexy zombie" before you even see the models so there's less of a dissonance there.

As far as how I responded to or resolved them, mostly I just shrugged, rolled my eyes a bit, and moved on.  I mentally put the Ronin way down on my painting list (mechanically, the Viktorias appealed as a glass cannon squad). When 3e hit I just sold all my mercs/outcasts since I didn't want a third faction sitting around.

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