New player - does the cultural appropriation bother anyone else?

[Yew Arcane]

1 hour ago, Hagisman said:

I'm glad Queeg has lost the "Master" title to his name. Originally "Master Queeg", he carries a whip. 

For those who don't know who Queeg is a reference to check out the Caine Mutiny:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caine_Mutiny

If he was just Queeg it would have been fine. But calling him Master really crossed the line. Additionally having a Henchman model called "Master' is kind of confusing.

Unless I'm missing something, the only problem with calling him Master is the confusion issue. Please elaborate, because I (and others) are confused on this.

[Champignon]

3 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I'm guessing the fact that it can refer to slave owners.

ok, lets get rid of half of the books 
aivengo got issues with jews, terrible

[Daniel Walker]

10 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I'm guessing the fact that it can refer to slave owners.

What is the problem with it? it is historical fact, and no one can argue that in that historical period slavery exists. Even Fae in Malifaux are evil undeads, why we should hide other bad sides of that world?

[Yew Arcane]

9 minutes ago, Champignon said:

ok, lets get rid of half of the books 
aivengo got issues with jews, terrible

Let's just slow down and relax for a moment before we accidentally reveal personal issues.

[ChoriQueso]

You're all 100% right and I hope that you find these debates very rewarding and conclusive.

[Yew Arcane]

2 minutes ago, ChoriQueso said:

Can we please get this thread locked? Social political discussion (especially arbitrary sjw triggers) doesn't belong in a game forum.

Lets not misuse the term trigger, please. It's a serious thing, and this has been a (mostly) calm discussion, and doesn't need anyone stirring up trouble to make some point.

[Necrokamo]

Is it time to put a "I told you" or is it too soon?

[Adran]

43 minutes ago, Necrokamo said:

Is it time to put a "I told you" or is it too soon?

[Modhat]

Too soon by my reading. As a general rule the discussion hasn't crossed lines, although a few may have stepped close. 

While I'm here can you please stop stirring the pot. I don't use reddit so I don't know why the thread got deleted, but it's often not the original post that kills a thread. Feel free to contribute to the discussion, but don't just keep telling us it was deleted elsewhere. 

To all readers. Please feel free to contribute to the discussion. Just be aware that whilst you might disagree with people's points, you can't tell them what they can't be offended by. If you don't want to know what offends other people, then just don't read this thread. 

We are watching the thread. 

[/modhat]

[Hagisman]

1 hour ago, Champignon said:

why not? it's a direct reference to a book
or you consider that book was too match?

The problem is that Master is indicative of slave ownership, because he has the whip (In m2e, he used to hurt his men to get extra actions as well) he looks more like a slave master.

1 hour ago, Daniel Walker said:

Whats wrong with Master reference? 

See above. Queeg is a fine character to reference, but his implementation made him look like a slave master. If he didn't have the whip and just threatened to shot his men I think it would have been better. But "cracking the whip" got into the game.

[Champignon]

11 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

The problem is that Master is indicative of slave ownership, because he has the whip (In m2e, he used to hurt his men to get extra actions as well) he looks more like a slave master.

See above. Queeg is a fine character to reference, but his implementation made him look like a slave master. If he didn't have the whip and just threatened to shot his men I think it would have been better. But "cracking the whip" got into the game.

Do not understand you

yeh, he is a slave master in a world where slavery exist and he also a reference to literature character with slave-master theme

but I don’ get it? Why is it bed? Or out of place

[Daniel Walker]

16 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

The problem is that Master is indicative of slave ownership, because he has the whip (In m2e, he used to hurt his men to get extra actions as well) he looks more like a slave master.

See above. Queeg is a fine character to reference, but his implementation made him look like a slave master. If he didn't have the whip and just threatened to shot his men I think it would have been better. But "cracking the whip" got into the game.

So due to his background and keyword in m2e maybe it was okey to him to treat his people like a slaves? As I think it is common in near-criminal organisations. He was described and looked very sadistic, so he could be a slavemaster. May be it can hurt someones feeling, but its very natural for a guy who is reffered as "bad guy"

[Hagisman]

4 minutes ago, Champignon said:

Do not understand you

yeh, he is a slave master in a world where slavery exist and he also a reference to literature character with slave-master theme

but I don’ get it? Why is it bed? Or out of place

Queeg isn't a slavemaster, he is a shipmaster. The Caine Mutiny is set in 1944. Queeg is an ineffectual captain who is mutinied against. So its ironic that he keeps soldiers in line.

So slavery never factored into his story to begin with.

[santaclaws01]

19 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

The problem is that Master is indicative of slave ownership, because he has the whip (In m2e, he used to hurt his men to get extra actions as well) he looks more like a slave master.

See above. Queeg is a fine character to reference, but his implementation made him look like a slave master. If he didn't have the whip and just threatened to shot his men I think it would have been better. But "cracking the whip" got into the game.

Master really isn't indicative of slave ownership. That's also a really weird stance to take in a game with something around 50 models called Masters and none of them are slave owners.

[Stonewall78]

Personally I don't get this whole thread at all. Complaining about made up off variation cultures in a whole world that is made up. Its a game not some commentary on all cultures around the world.
If you are offended, that's ok, you do you boo. But to think that Wyrd is doing it in any negative context it ridiculous. They have a model line that encompasses all shapes and sizes and doesn't single out anyone or anything. Sure they use some tropes and silent real world homages but nothing that is malicious. Hell most are really well thought out.

[ChoriQueso]

You're all 100% right and I hope that you find these debates very rewarding and conclusive.

[Maniacal_cackle]

For an example of where this isn't as much of an issue...

Look at Malifaux's representation of women. The vast majority of women in Malifaux are done tastefully and successfully. For almost every model in Malifaux, I'd be happy to invite my female gamer friends to come play a game against it. A lot of games fail to do this so well (the oversexualisation of female but not male models being a common example). Malifaux is probably only good at this because they have been conscious of it as an issue.

By being conscious of the real world baggage that one drags into a game setting, you can genuinely improve the game (as Malifaux proves with its female representation). I think we get much more interesting characters in Malifaux than say, Magic the Gathering in the 90s. Personally I think this sort of feedback is critical for game companies. Wyrd will eventually have to do a fourth edition. If that's 5-10 years down the line, then societies expectations may have lifted in some areas. It is good for Wyrd to stay ahead of the curve.

I also see a lot of people commenting that they "don't understand" the issue of cultural appropriation. Honestly, the material available on cultural appropriation isn't great. Either you can read the stuff on the internet (which is a bit shit), or you can read academic literature (which uses really inaccessible language and can be a nightmare to read if you don't have a relevant degree). So I totally get why the whole topic just seems confusing to people. Honestly even academics will argue about it plenty.

But if people do want to learn more about the subject, I'd suggest a simpler first step is learning about some cultures that have been decimated by other cultures. In New Zealand, for instance, Maori children used to be beaten if they spoke their own language. As someone who has always had full access (kinda) to my native language (English), it's difficult for me to even comprehend what other cultures go through. But learning about it at least aids understanding a bit.

[Thedeadclaw]

24 minutes ago, ChoriQueso said:

It is not a place to look for and be triggered by instances in the story or characters in the game which inadvertently resemble real life to you

You... Do realize this is a game based on history with strong historical footing, right? Saying this would be like saying a discussion about why Nazis are bad is out of place in the forum of a WWII game.

This whole thread is a mess though. Half of the thread is fine and honest discussion but half of you are just heckling people which is just a really shitty thing to do in general. It's very easy to just not send a reply if you can't be polite when contributing. I've already said everything I want to say about this topic but I'm really disappointed with the community right now because we should be better than this. It's a niche game that we all enjoy, we shouldn't be tearing each other down y'all

[Yew Arcane]

26 minutes ago, ChoriQueso said:

I play games to escape reality, escape news, politics, religion, etc... It's a fantasy world where ANYTHING can happen. It is not a place to look for and be triggered by instances in the story or characters in the game which inadvertently resemble real life to you. To bring it up in the context that I have read in this thread is to imply that Wyrd made a conscious decision to do something inappropriate. I never claimed your issues weren't serious in any way. This just isn't the place IMO.

Admittedly, I never should have looked in this thread... so I'll leave you all to this fun and positive energy! 

 See you all in the hobby discussions!!!

If someone with a trauma finds something that triggers a response in the game, that is something that should be talked about.  You are misusing the term 'Trigger' in this light. it makes light of people who have responses to things related to traumas (fireworks are a trigger for people who have combat related PTSD). One does not choose to be triggered by something. This is absolutely a place to discuss things about the game and its lore that make people uncomfortable on any level, including such subjects as cultural appropriation, and possibly triggers. You aren't the only one who plays the game to escape from reality, and discussing ways that it might make people uncomfortable and thus, unable to do so.

[Champignon]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I also see a lot of people commenting that they "don't understand" the issue of cultural appropriation.

actually the term itself is pretty simple and quite understandable, the problem of not understanding - it is not related to the game, there is no appropriation in the game. some people in the topic just really struggle to find it 

[Daniel Walker]

9 hours ago, Yew Arcane said:

If someone with a trauma finds something that triggers a response in the game, that is something that should be talked about.  You are misusing the term 'Trigger' in this light. it makes light of people who have responses to things related to traumas (fireworks are a trigger for people who have combat related PTSD). One does not choose to be triggered by something. This is absolutely a place to discuss things about the game and its lore that make people uncomfortable on any level, including such subjects as cultural appropriation, and possibly triggers. You aren't the only one who plays the game to escape from reality, and discussing ways that it might make people uncomfortable and thus, unable to do so.

Wait a second. World of Malifaux is not safespace for everyone. It’s the world of guild terror, dead children that are trying to kill you, and savage neverborns, who hates humanity at all. World of cruel necromancers, and cunning criminals. Any of that things can trigger a lot of people. One should not come and ruin the whole magical world by trying to explain that it can hurt to someone. There is no rainbows and unicorns (only bloody Ulix unicorns) in this world. Bad things happens.

[Yew Arcane]

7 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

Wait a second. World of Malifaux is not safespace for everyone. It’s the world of guild terror, dead children that are trying to kill you, and savage neverborns, who hates humanity at all. World of cruel necromancers, and cunning criminals. Any of that things can trigger a lot of people. One should not come and ruin the whole magical world by trying to explain that it can hurt to someone. There is no rainbows and unicorns (only bloody Ulix unicorns) in this world. Bad things happens.

You're not wrong. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the conversation. Ignoring and dismissing what others find make them uncomfortable makes the game something that they can still enjoy. Just because the setting isn't sunshine and daisies doesn't mean that we have to treat the people who play the game like they're unwelcome unless they don't see issues. I find the concept of reanimating corpses detestable onna fundamental level. My solution is to not play characters who do that (with one exception for personal reasons). Does that mean I don't think Resurrectionists shouldn't be in the game? No, just let people express their opinions about the game and its lore without dismissing them because you disagree. 

[Daniel Walker]

6 minutes ago, Yew Arcane said:

You're not wrong. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the conversation. Ignoring and dismissing what others find make them uncomfortable makes the game something that they can still enjoy. Just because the setting isn't sunshine and daisies doesn't mean that we have to treat the people who play the game like they're unwelcome unless they don't see issues. I find the concept of reanimating corpses detestable onna fundamental level. My solution is to not play characters who do that (with one exception for personal reasons). Does that mean I don't think Resurrectionists shouldn't be in the game? No, just let people express their opinions about the game and its lore without dismissing them because you disagree. 

The option not to play or play with is good. But option cut it from the game  because it hurt my feelings is totally bad

[Yew Arcane]

3 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

The option not to play or play with is good. But option cut it from the game  because it hurt my feelings is totally bad

Where did anyone say ro cut anything from the game? This smells of false flag. 

[Adran]

13 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

Wait a second. World of Malifaux is not safespace for everyone. It’s the world of guild terror, dead children that are trying to kill you, and savage neverborns, who hates humanity at all. World of cruel necromancers, and cunning criminals. Any of that things can trigger a lot of people. One should not come and ruin the whole magical world by trying to explain that it can hurt to someone. There is no rainbows and unicorns (only bloody Ulix unicorns) in this world. Bad things happens.

There is a big difference between not being a safe space for characters in the game, and not being a safe space for players of the game.

I would say that if you think someone complaining about part of the world of malifaux is going to ruin your enjoyment of this world, then you probably don't want to be reading threads about people complaining about the world of malifaux.

Malifaux is a setting that isn't going to be suitable for everyone, and I don't think anyone wants it to be a setting that everyone can find safe. Its like some films or books aren't going to be suitable for some people. That said, that doesn't mean that the discussions on what people find uncomfortable isn't relevant. The world is Wyrds to control, and do with as they will

2 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

The option not to play or play with is good. But option cut it from the game  because it hurt my feelings is totally bad

Wyrd already do this to some extent. Its jut they cut a lot of things from the game before you knew about them. Nathan has always been outspoken against Clowns, and so they haven't appeared in Malifaux. (I reckon he was off ill when they passed Dark Carnival).

 

[DarrenG]

22 hours ago, Adran said:

I would like Darren G to return and comment, because its not really a discussion otherwise.

I've just been reading over the replies.

I did post the same question on Reddit about a week prior and sadly by the time I got back to catch up on it I found that it had been closed. A lot of the comments weren't too constructive, kinda veering off into abuse, accusations of 'political correctness agendas', SJW-insults, that kind of thing. I had kinda hoped that the conversation would be a bit more convivial on the official forum. 

To clarify a few of the questions, I don't work with any organisations or publication groups intent on censorship, like @Necrokamo mentioned. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I'm not asking that anyone be offended on the behalf of anybody else like @Scoffer mentioned and I'm not telling anybody that they should be offended, like @katadder mentioned - in fact, I didn't even use the word 'offended' in my original post at all. Nor did I say that I want, as Scoffer put it, everyone involved to immediately stop doing things they were doing and start making me comfortable.

But hey, 22 downvotes and four pages of people telling me what they want me to have said? I don't think this is the game for me, so thanks for the time.