solkan Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said: (Ironically I also really like a lot of the Bayou models/think they're hilarious. If they were just 'gremlins' and had some of the inspiration a bit more removed from the American South, I'd have considered it as a main faction). The Bayou faction is the faction that was called Gremlins during M2E. And, since the company is based in Georgia, "inspiration a bit more removed from the American South" might be a bit problematic. I am not from The South, but my understanding is that any real world stereotypes presented concerning the Bayou are done in the Classic Western "smile when you say" manner. When the faction description says "Nestled to the east of Malifaux City is the Bayou, an expansive swamp with open marshes, flooded wetlands, and acres of pig farms." that's referring to the physical place in the setting. East of Malifaux City in the setting is a swamp that is called the Bayou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said: Ah, did Bayou exist before? Basically Bayou in any game is just code for 'lots of stereotypes about the American South.' And the American South is rife with a history of slavery and racial abuse. Grabbing stereotypes from the Bayou as inspiration has a lot of issues. So my problem is just its existence in the game. The original gremlins in M1 were called bayou gremlins. So the gremlins have always lived in a bayou in malifaux lore. They themselves had a lot of basis from the film deliverance from what I can see. (Although I've never seen the film). So they certainly have some links to the American south, I don't think they are exclusively from there, and I don't think they have all the American south stereotypes. Gremlins certainly aren't slaves in the lore, but more a case of the native inhabitants of the lands. They mix several Hillbilly stereotypes with a general gremlin/goblin stereotype. But I also don't know how much I know of an areas real history, compared with the stereotypes of its history. I'm British, which is at least as rife with a history of slavery, colonialization, conquest and wars. (Probably much more so, but we do have a lot more history to have done it in). I know when I see British stereotype, what they are based on, and have an idea of how close to reality they are. I like to think I understand why stereotypes are used, and understand that some stereotypes are offensive, but I also don't want historical atrocities to be removed from public knowledge because no mass media is allowed to refer to slavery (foe example) for fear of offending someone. That said, I'm off for a cup of tea now, so I'm going to re-enforce that particular stereotype. I might even stir it with a biscuit. I may even stick out my little finger whilst I drink it, but its in a mug not a bone china cup. EDIT <MODHAT> Comment for everyone reading this thread I'm not going to tell people what they can and can't be offended at. You are welcome to not be offended at anything in the game, and tell people that, but allow them to tell you if they are offended by things. If you don't want to know what offends some people, then I suggest not reading threads about cultural appropriation and it bothering people. Please show some respect to other members of the fourm. </MODHAT> 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 jeez, welcome to the 21st century where if someone isnt offended there are plenty of people waiting to be offended on your behalf and let you know you should be offended 😂😂 1 5 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 To clarify a bit more. Take, for instance, something that most of us in Western culture would recognise would be in poor taste. If you had a "Dolfo Schmitler" model that had a stupid moustache and threw models into ovens, and another model was a big-nosed money-changer model... You'd hopefully be able to recognise that throwing the Jewish stereotype into the Hitler-inspired model's oven is a problem. Similarly, take Zoraida's voodoo abilities. Voodoo of this type is a spoof of an actual religion. That religion belongs to a people who have had every aspect of their culture decimated by the American slave trade. Having a Southern game company make light of that religion is at least influenced by a racist history, even if one doesn't directly want to call the company racist (I'm a person of colour and I don't think it helpful to throw the word 'racist' at everyone). And again, (almost) every game suffers from this problem. It's almost inevitable if you take inspiration from the real world. Some of that inspiration is going to carry its real-world baggage into the game with it. Heck, even witches are a problem in games (my family is wiccan, the religion behind the term 'witches' and there's all sorts of history there). Which is why when I play against a Zoraida player, I moan about her abilities and not all of this stuff. But if a player DOES care enough about these issues that it influences their decisions on what to buy/whether to play at all... power to them. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 Also worth noting that I really, really enjoy Wyrd as a company. They have developed a truly fantastic game. Sure, it has some problems (and I think it good to acknowledge those problems), but it is the best wargame I've ever played. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 16 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said: Similarly, take Zoraida's voodoo abilities. Voodoo of this type is a spoof of an actual religion. That religion belongs to a people who have had every aspect of their culture decimated by the American slave trade. Having a Southern game company make light of that religion is at least influenced by a racist history, even if one doesn't directly want to call the company racist (I'm a person of colour and I don't think it helpful to throw the word 'racist' at everyone). If it makes you feel any better, voodoo doll is a misnomer and it doesn't really have any connection to the religious practices. The act of cursing people by inserting pins into a doll is actually of British origin. Damn Americans appropriating British culture like that... Edit: I would also find Dolfo Schmitler hilarious. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorUndead Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Caedrus said: * Why is there no Gremlin Steve Irwin? That's a Nightmare model that would sell like crazy... You might not get a Gremlin Steve Irwin, but maybe one of the new masters in the Explorator's Society will be someone who wants to discover/study the animals in Malifaux (though it might be somewhat redundant with Marcus)! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champignon Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 i always thought that if you can not separate toy soldiers game and a real life it is not a problem of the game... 2 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, MajorUndead said: You might not get a Gremlin Steve Irwin, but maybe one of the new masters in the Explorator's Society will be someone who wants to discover/study the animals in Malifaux (though it might be somewhat redundant with Marcus)! That actually seems kind of likely, because the faction description mentions big game hunters. There could very well be a master that's all about conquering the wilds of Malifaux. Marcus is more about being part of nature than conquering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 On a more general note, the original poster of this thread basically said "I'm new and something about the game makes me uncomfortable" and was immediately hit with two pages of people disagreeing with him and a dozen "disagree" reacts. It sucks when you put thought into a post and get slammed for it. But especially so when you are speaking out in a manner like this post. It'd be nice if people could be generally more welcoming and put more effort into engaging with OP's concerns. To the original poster, I think those are legitimate concerns. The answer of how I deal with it is I focus on the parts of the game I like, and avoid the factions with too many grey areas. If it all became too much, I'd probably find a different game. These issues are rife throughout the gaming industry, and we just have to take the world as it is (imperfect though it is), and give feedback where appropriate. I would hope Wyrd and other companies improve on this throughout the editions. 1 6 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogid Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 It's important sepparate the real world stuff form game's lore, but I agree that some historical events (like the Holocaust) are better not joked about. They could be included, but it's bad taste and as a developer you'd be shooting yourself in the feet if that make people skip your game. Using stereotypes are very useful for this kind of games; the player would give a lot of identity to these characters by just recognissing his inspiration/stereotype. You can imagine how the ortegas are thanks to his mexican stereotype, the big hat with his red neck vibe or the lone swordsman being Mushashi in a vendetta... and even some players will get atracted by those germans with big guns or the ghostt-rider-like guys. You could create a new entire world, but that is both harder and also will require much more from the player (they will need to read a lot of lore to understand the fictional cultural references). Things like religion have been used in a lot of games, films, series, books... The Spanish inquisition's black leguend have been the inspiration on countless fictional inquisitors, Voodoo is also quite popular, Budism and their Shaoling monks are everywhere, even muslims have their share in Infinity, where a full faction is inspired in them... I understand some people could get offended for some references that touch them close tho, but I think most people will see them just as a way to give colour to the world and characters, not like some kind of veiled insult to some culture/religion/[instert reason to be offended] Ole! Domadores de cadaveres! Que arte miarma! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champignon Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said: was immediately hit with two pages of people disagreeing with him and a dozen "disagree" reacts. that's how it works when people disagree with you It's called dialogue you give us your thoughts we give you ours and in between the truth is born and if everyone just politely said "ok" the problem wouldn't be solved unfortunately do not think it is ever be solved, couse funny people will always exist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgfree Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 As a Mexican-American, two things offend me about the Ortegas: 1) Their poor/odd use of spanish 2) That they haven't used enough of the culture! (the above is tounge-in-cheek, in case it's not clear) Seriously, I actually like how the Ortegas are portrayed - even if the execution of it leaves a little to be desired. I have been waiting a long time to get #1 off my chest though. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoffer Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said: On a more general note, the original poster of this thread basically said "I'm new and something about the game makes me uncomfortable" and was immediately hit with two pages of people disagreeing with him and a dozen "disagree" reacts. It sucks when you put thought into a post and get slammed for it. But especially so when you are speaking out in a manner like this post. It'd be nice if people could be generally more welcoming and put more effort into engaging with OP's concerns. The problem with original post is, that when someone on the Internet says "this makes me uncomfortable" using words like "cultural appropriation", it sounds like he wants everyone involved immediately stop doing things they were doing and start making him comfortable. I think good people in Wyrd have a lot of more important things to do (for example, publish cards for Good Ol'Boys and other september releases). 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champignon Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 hope Wyrd will make Scoffer Admin or something he is toо good, too good 11\10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnomezilla Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 Four different hobbies* of mine and those near me have now been hit by variations of this theme, with no prelude, in 24 hours. 😖 If you aren’t part of the mass trolling, you are close enough to it and have been tarred with the same brush of ignorance. *I don’t mean ‘four variations of gaming’ either. Whatever spawned this wave of trolling scattered far further than that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedeadclaw Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said: my family is wiccan, the religion behind the term 'witches' and there's all sorts of history there Okay first I wanna point out, before I even respond to this thread, how patently untrue that is. "Witch" is a secular term dating back to Sumeria, like pre Babylon Sumeria. Almost every culture has had them. Wicca was literally invented by Gerald Gardner in 1954. (Technically Doreen Valiente's late 50's contributions are responsible for both neowicca and Dianic Wicca, but for the sake of argument, 1954.) He chose the word Wicca because it was the masculine old English root for Witch. So etemolygy wise you're almost right, the English word "witch" is derived from the old English word "Wicca", but it's a very new religion, a very old word (hello Salem Witch Trials), and an even older concept (hi there from Circe, Heka, Hecate, Innana, etc). Also not super relevant to the thread. But as a religious anthropologist I just uh. Tried to ignore this and failed really bad. 3 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 Getting back on topic... 7 hours ago, DarrenG said: ather big around our area but died off quite a bit until 3rd ed. Now it's having a bit of a revival and I was wanting to jump onboard. I picked out a faction, outcasts, and have got a few models. I was just wondering if anybody else was kinda put off by the way that 'Eastern'-themed models are depicted in the game? It does seem that a rather large number of pretty much any faction, especially the Ten Thunders but also Ressurrectionists and Arcanists, seem to have a LOT of fetishised exoticism with how it approaches characters from other cultures. Not trying to diminish your experience or anything here, but what is it that you find uncomfortable about the Asian characters? I find that a lot of the exoticism of the models represented in the game comes from the fact that they dress up in a really stereotypically Asian way. However, that stereotypical clothing is just typical clothing from early 1900s. (See for example this and this) Practically all the characters that are of European descent are also depicted in a similarly old timey fashion. Nowadays everyone wears jeans and t-shirts, but that was simply not true 100 years ago. Given that the alternatives are to dress the Asian characters in age appropriate clothes, dress them some other way, or just leave them out of the game altogether, I think Wyrd has made the right choice. One could argue that clumping China, Vietnam and Japan into one country known as Three Kingdoms doesn't do enough justice to the cultural diversity found in East-Asia, but to be fair Europe has gotten a very similar treatment, and for a smallish place it arguably packs even more cultural diversity. I don't even fault Wyrd for not putting more effort in trying to represent Earth that accurately. It would be a lot of effort for very little gain, especially since Malifaux doesn't even take place on Earth. Plus it's just not that important in a miniature game, in my opinion at least. 7 hours ago, DarrenG said: It's not so much that it's not thematically appropriate and so on, and most of the models are tasteful (with a few exceptions), but a lot of it does border on or push across the line of appropriating other cultures for use in a game. I won't lie, when I look at models like Wong I kinda do feel quite a lot of discomfort. I'm definitely not looking to start an argument or cause a flame war here or anything, but I'm curious if I'm the only person who feels this way and, if not, how you deal with this in your games? Do you just, like, turn a blind eye to it? Wong is just a stupid gremlin who, like other gremlins, imitates the humans he has seen, poorly. He's basically an example of someone who makes himself look foolish by appropriating another culture. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedeadclaw Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 Okay, to the actual thread: Wong sucks and there's no way around that. Big Jake is a really racist model. And that's it. That's literally it. The older books really skirt the line a lot, but as of newer stuff Wyrd is one of the only companies that actively makes models for as many different ethnicities and genders of characters as possible. Malifaux is the most diverse play community in my whole area's mini scene because if how good their representation is. They've had a few misses, but if you actually read the lore it's mostly done very well, and Malifaux isn't the place to start a flame war tbh. Honestly the amount of people I've seen so happy over seeing themselves in this game is ridiculous, so like, even if this thread is well intentioned, it doesn't have much bearing in the real world. The whole "eastern theming" thing that you're trying to push off isn't a thing in the game. It's just a vibrant depiction of multiple distinct cultures that Wyrd decided they didn't need to Europeanize to make the game appealing to people, and they were right. There are probably people ignoring the attention to detail they have, but that's not on the game that bases so much of its characters on historical or mythical figures. Malifaux is a vibrant and diverse world and while there are some issues with it this really isn't one of them based on how many people feel so excited to see a game that actually has minis that look like them in it. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champignon Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said: 10 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said: Big Jake is a really racist model. really like you post but what is wrong with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, Champignon said: 25 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said: 25 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said: Big Jake is a really racist model. really like you post but what is wrong with him? My guess is it's because he's appropriating European culture with that top hat. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheJoyInGaming Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 So I have a question: what exactly is cultural appropriation? And is it possible for a smaller culture to appropriate another culture? I ask because I am an American-born Hispanic who grew up in California and moved to Missouri though I have never put stock into any of that as part of my identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 23 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said: So I have a question: what exactly is cultural appropriation? And is it possible for a smaller culture to appropriate another culture? I ask because I am an American-born Hispanic who grew up in California and moved to Missouri though I have never put stock into any of that as part of my identity. Linda Martín Alcoff writes that this is often seen in cultural outsiders' use of an oppressed culture's symbols or other cultural elements, such as music, dance, spiritual ceremonies, modes of dress, speech, and social behaviour when these elements are trivialized and used for fashion, rather than respected within their original cultural context. From wikipedia, but I feel it's a pretty accurate description of (problematic) cultural appropriation. Thus many people would not call it cultural appropriation unless the culture is somehow in a vulnerable position. I would also point out that according to that definition nothing in the 10T faction aside from maybe Samurais is really cultural appropriation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necrokamo Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 Uhmmm, Was this not a deleted post from another forum for subjectively inducing censorship and hate issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Necrokamo said: Uhmmm, Was this not a deleted post from another forum for subjectively inducing censorship and hate issues? If we are thinking of the same post, that one was about lack of diversity instead of too much diversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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