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Coppelius... How do you use him?


Ogid
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I'm a bit lost with our mini-cthulhu, which role do you assign him in your lists?

Combat: His damage and accuracy (stat of 7) are pretty good, as long as he is not fighting into a lot of stuns or trigger denying, his damage track is 3/5/6 better than the other 2 premium beaters (Teddy with 3/4/6 and Carver with 3/3/5; but this last one could be 4/4/6 with a ram). However for head to head combat both Teddy and Carver seem better. Teddy can Flurry, has 1 armor, 1 extra Wd and more ways to recover Wds (but 1 less df tho); Carver is a Henchman with 1 more Wd, so he can use SS to stay alive, can get rid of the enemy focused condition and has a ranged damage spell and a bonus action that stun (and that could heal him if used in :meleerange). Coppelius is the squisiest of the 3, but the nimblest, with 7 movement and agile he has the longest threat range (8 versus 7 of Teddy and 6 from Carver). So, he is a good beater, but the squisiest by far of the 3 (even with terrifying and 9 Wds, he can be killed much more easily than any of the other 2).

Utility: He has some useful abilities, unhinge is like a heal for Nightmare; each Nightmare engaged with the target will get 2 Wds healed (1 from feed of fear and 1 from the pulse), but it's hard to get high damage out of it. Whispered truths isn't bad per se, but I can hire a Changeling to do that; the trigger however it's pretty good as an scheme denial tool. Frightening Reminder (bonus) is good to push nightmares into position both offensively and defensively

Scheming: With movement 7 he can double walk 14'' per turn, but there is no way he can drop double schemes or get free interacts, agile is the only saving grace here; so it's not good as an schemer. But he can do good denial with Whispered truths.

I can see several uses for him:

  • Scheme denial: Use Whispered truths to slow the enemy runner and remove the enemy markers. Then gut him with his higher combat stat.
  • Mele beater: Focus in his mele attacks, for this role he would need Focused to get easily at least moderate damage, this needs the player to be very careful with him
  • Scalpel: Give him fast and focused, walk him into position (easy with agile and movement 7) and charge that model you need out of the game.
  • Support/antidive: Push other nightmares forward and heal with Unhinge until the oportunity to charge is there or a model try to bypass the centerline and go for the support models. This would work better with models that may get enemy models out of position with lures or placements (like WW or Hinamatsu)

But i'm not sure which is the best way to use him...

So... how do you use him? with which other moels/strategies/schemes do you usually pick him?

Ty in advance!

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He is a scheme runner in my view, similar to Archie in ressers.

If you send something like an insidious madness to scheme run by itself, the enemy crew can shut it down with one combat model.

Coppelius can singlehandedly take over a scheme zone, since he is a strong beater and can summon reinforcements with his willpower duels. They have to send a proper beater/team to stop him.

I generally prefer widow weaver and Bandersnatch for scheme running if I think the destination won't be contested. But for enemies who try to deny you, coppelius is great.

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That was my first thought about him, a slowish but consistent runner; however he lacks a lot of tools for that role. For example comparing him with Archie. Archie is both harder to kill and more dangerous in combat with Flurry; but putting that aside because Archie is Archie. Focusing just in the scheme runner role the efficiency of the resser guy is higher: as Archie has leap he can cover more ground with double move + leap (16'' vs the 14'' of Coppelius), in a turn where they interact once the difference is bigger (11'' vs 7'') and (this is the big deal breaker) in some turns Archie may drop 2 schemes with interact, leap, interact (6'' vs can't do it). Agile is good, but leap can also be used to dissengage.

And he also seem to lose a lot of synergy by leaving the rest of the crew behind. His bonus action is useful but you need other nightmares around to use it; the wp attack to summon more models is more useful if he is attacking a model already in combat, you will do only 1 damage if Coppelius is the only one in range (that ability still heals him 2 Wds, but still, not very efficient for a 9 SS model) and slowing sands removing enemy markers in area would have more sense in Nightmare's half of the table or in the centerline where the other player will drop his markers.

He is hard to contest because he has the potential to murder anything sent to stop him, but he is also very inefficient at scheming; the spiders seems better in the scheming role with the webs shenanigans. For example, pairing a bandersnatch with WW, you can spinball her 26'' the first turn. A Bandersnatch can cover 14'' when she drops 1 marker per turn (but neither she can double drop schemes one turn), is also hard to pin down thanks to the webs; plus her wp attack is her bonus action and it is useful when isolated and it also empowers Alphs. So Bandersnatch seems much better scheme runner than him and she can call reinforcements with an useful action.

IDK, for a pure scheme role if a lot of schemes needs to be dropped (the 2 schemes per turn trick would be needed), an OOK Nephillim (or even a Razorspine) seems more efficient while still being able to hold his ground (but in nightmare the spiders are probably better unless the reinforcements are needed elsewhere)

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I haven't gotten to play him in 3e, but his stats and abilities seem to point him to a similar role as I used him for in 2e. So he's fast and can hit consistantly (in this edition he hits hard too). He can roll up to centerliine schemers and threaten them with his attacks, then waltz away to hit another model and heal his fellow nightmares. He can help by pushing friends around, and then set off a WP bomb if the enemy gets too clumpy.

His Mv7 doesn't give him enough straight line speed to solo scheme, but it does allow him to reposition very easily. His attack may not make him a slayer but it allows him to pick off small targets or help finish off larger targets, and he won't generally need as many cards cheated so he doesn't stress your hand. In a crew that relies on a lot of smaller minions and is super card hungry, having a big threatening support node to help out amplifies the crew's effectiveness.

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Ty guys, I think I'm starting to see how this one is expected to be played.

3 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

His attack may not make him a slayer but it allows him to pick off small targets or help finish off larger targets, and he won't generally need as many cards cheated so he doesn't stress your hand.

This is an interesting idea, the crew is card hungry so a beater with an stat of 7 can really help to avoid having to cheat to win duels... and with a moderate damage of 5, after lucid dreams remove most of the weak cards, he will start to hit like a truck (even with damage flips at:-flip)... he is still squishy, but I guess that being careful with him, he will be playable... Maybe he will pair nicely with Alphs? These are cheap and can swarm models to use his Wp attack, and their natural musk can help him to stay alive...

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

There are models, that make more of a spectacle of themselves, while octoface is more of a discrete workhorse. 

"Octoface" XDD.

Fair point, but discrete or not I hope he pull his weight; at 9 SS he isn't exactly a bargain...

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12 hours ago, Ogid said:

That was my first thought about him, a slowish but consistent runner; however he lacks a lot of tools for that role. For example comparing him with Archie. Archie is both harder to kill and more dangerous in combat with Flurry; but putting that aside because Archie is Archie. Focusing just in the scheme runner role the efficiency of the resser guy is higher: as Archie has leap he can cover more ground with double move + leap (16'' vs the 14'' of Coppelius), in a turn where they interact once the difference is bigger (11'' vs 7'') and (this is the big deal breaker) in some turns Archie may drop 2 schemes with interact, leap, interact (6'' vs can't do it). Agile is good, but leap can also be used to dissengage.

Archie (almost) never drops scheme markers. He clears the way and crooligans drop the scheme markers.

In the same vein, often Coppelius doesn't use the interact action. He clears out opposition, summons an insidious madness, and the madness interacts. However, the fact that in any emergency "I need an interact now" he can walk away from a fight and drop them is great.

Models should almost never work in isolation.

On turf war for instance, if Coppelius goes after a weakly guarded marker, he can claim it (and if an enemy is there, he leaves summons behind).

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Good point, I'm not that into Molly, I totally forgot about the Croligans... It's a tough comparison because Molly is very very good at scheme play; but still Archi+Crooligans is much more efficient than Coppelius+Summons.

Archie can use his full actions to smash enemies and the crooligans will teleport there with his "by your side", so Archie has potentially 3 attacks to kill the other guys. Meanwhile Coppelius has 2 attacks maximum with a less threat range than Archie, but he has to sacrifice one of these to use an almost useless ability when isolated to summon it (0 damage if used at 8'' range, 1 damage if used at 3'' or less); at 3'' he could use the pulse, but that one is even easier to avoid for the other player just cheating a medium card.

A bandersnatch on the other hand is way quicker and his Wp action is an useful one, so she can potentially: place in a web, attack twice and bury while summoning something. Hell, even an insidious would be a better runner than Coppelius, its attacks are in Wp so it just need 1 of them to summon something...

In turf war on the other hand he could be more useful, there killing something helps with the objetive.

The more I look at him, the less I like the idea of using him as a runner...

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I don't take him very often, and agree he is way weaker than Archie for instance. But he is still useful occasionally (especially on Turf War, Outflank, or any other match where you have to fight for territory).

I don't think he is comparable to an Insidious Madness. The Madness will die long before it gets to its destination without protection. A madness + coppelius is a wayyyyy better team than two insidious madness.

Bandersnatch does not want to bury when scheming (except things like Vendetta). It can't interact while buried and the enemy gets to control the location of the Bandersnatch by moving their model. Widow weaver's terrify is super strong and way better than Coppelius' WP.

If running a single model, Widow Weaver is better than Coppelius probably. But once the Madness is placed/moved up, Coppelius protects it better.

That said, if it didn't come in the core box, I'd not recommend people buy him necessarily.

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2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think he is comparable to an Insidious Madness. The Madness will die long before it gets to its destination without protection. A madness + coppelius is a wayyyyy better team than two insidious madness.

While I agree Coppelius + Insidius is much better team than 2 Insidious, the difference between the endurance of a madness and Coppelius isn't that big. An Insidius is quite tanky, it has Terrifying and incorporeal while Coppelius has Terrifying and Regen+1. The 2 Wds less of the insidius + Incorporeal are roughtly equivalent to the 2 extra wds of Coppelius, the insidius heals and "call reinforcements" just attacking while Coppelius has to use his akward spells to summon/heal but has Regen+1.

Insidious Incorporeal makes them move through things Coppelius can't, but Coppelius is much more dangerous than a Insidius in combat and has agile. Coppelius lose value while far away from the bulk of the crew (unhinge and bonus action), while Insidius can use his tactical to help the main group from anywhere if needed.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Bandersnatch does not want to bury when scheming (except things like Vendetta). It can't interact while buried and the enemy gets to control the location of the Bandersnatch by moving their model. Widow weaver's terrify is super strong and way better than Coppelius' WP.

It's not a bad move if you are going to summon something, let's say you only get 1 attack with min damage + the bury you'll deal 2 damage, plus 1 from poison, plus 1 from the upgrade (when target activates), plus 1 from the Alph summoned, plus 1 from the attack... those are 6 damage, and it could be more... it's not that hard to kill a model in the 6-7 SS range doing that... I like the Alph/Bander pairing because both get things out of the other; Natural Musk makes Bandersnatch a bit tankier while she being buried means the Alph get a :+flip)

I agree WW can also be a nice pair with Bander if she needs extra reinforcements.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That said, if it didn't come in the core box, I'd not recommend people buy him necessarily.

I need to properly test him but Teddy/Carver looks like safer choices. He could maybe perform well in a minion heavy strategy: Dreamer+LCB+Coppelius+only Minions; the high model count will make his unhinge get extra damage and heals more easily and the quick lucid dreams will make him start hitting like a truck quite fast (5 Moderate damage is a lot)

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2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I need to properly test him but Teddy/Carver looks like safer choices. He could maybe perform well in a minion heavy strategy: Dreamer+LCB+Coppelius+only Minions; the high model count will make his unhinge get extra damage and heals more easily and the quick lucid dreams will make him start hitting like a truck quite fast (5 Moderate damage is a lot)

Teddy and Carver fill completely different roles and aren't worth comparing IMO. They take four actions to move 20", Coppelius takes three to move 21".

I think you also overemphasise Unhinge. It is useful sometimes, but it is not a reason to take the model.

There are basically three reasons to take him compared to other high cost models.

* 7 inch move

* agile

* small base size (so can fit through terrain more easily).

Compared to high cost beaters, he is maneuverable. Compared to Madness he is a bit clunky movement wise, but he does better in a fight. Only take him if you want a model that combines okay tanking with good damage with good maneuvering.

Corner deployment turf war + outflank is a good example of where he is better than any beater in keyword for a specific job (hitting a flank).

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Basically there are four keyword models that can start the turn engaged and still place a scheme marker (and only three can move and place a marker).

That's an important role in Malifaux. Coppelius is overall probably the worst of the four, but with hundreds of strategy/scheme combinations, there are probably at least a few dozen where he is the best keyword option.

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A concrete example:

Coppelius can move on top of a corrupted idol one turn (up to 14" of move), and still move the idol next turn even if engaged by a model with a 1" engagement range. No other Nightmare (edit: beater) can do that (edit: without winning a duel, of course. Anything can just kill the other model xD)

Agile is reallllly good.

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10 hours ago, Ogid said:

Ty guys, I think I'm starting to see how this one is expected to be played.

This is an interesting idea, the crew is card hungry so a beater with an stat of 7 can really help to avoid having to cheat to win duels... and with a moderate damage of 5, after lucid dreams remove most of the weak cards, he will start to hit like a truck (even with damage flips at:-flip)... he is still squishy, but I guess that being careful with him, he will be playable... Maybe he will pair nicely with Alphs? These are cheap and can swarm models to use his Wp attack, and their natural musk can help him to stay alive...

"Octoface" XDD.

Fair point, but discrete or not I hope he pull his weight; at 9 SS he isn't exactly a bargain...

And I wouldn’t exactly say, that he is my Star Player.

And looking at his actions, he seems more dedicated to running with the crowd and getting into the thick of it - with scheme marker removal, his Unhinge relying on a crowd of nightmare and his friendly push. So maybe his job is to take a bunch of minions to the centre and make everyone fear treading there. 

But at the price he is by far overshadowed by Serena.  

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I'm not that sold with your reading @Maniacal_cackle... I think you are trying to force octoface in a role that doesn't fit him that well. Agile and Mv7 are nice perks and that clutch interact could be handy in the last turns of some games, but it's not enough to make him a good lone wolf (For example, with a few lead nightmares Carver could hit one of those flanks/idols on time too, where he would be harder to remove than coppelius, can manifest nightmares and dissengage the enemy model with his bonus action and has an useful ranged spell just in case). If Coppelius start engaged with something and expend his turn doing move + interact, odds are that he could had killed that model in that activation and he will be murdered instead (plus Nightmare has ways to dissengage models like the said lead nightmare, hole in the world trigger, misery aura... Agile is good, but it's not that good if the model doesn't have additional features like nimble or a bonus action that let him interact) expending a 9 SS model activation doing a move + interact is very inefficient imo.

He is not tanky by any means, Df5, 9 Wds and Terrifying(11) and no SS damage reduction... the only thing keeping him alive is his big Wd pool... and that makes him vulnerable; he cannot afford ignoring enemies around him while he interacts (specially when isolated!) because he will be punished hard.

It's true Unhinge isn't the best spell in the world, but it has its uses; 2 uses of it will make nightmares engaged with the target heal 4 Wds while damaging the enemy model and as said above Nightmare have some useful abilities to put their minions in position, place chompy and displace enemies to set that up. That could be quite good in an attrition game, specially considering the Nightmare minions are tanky when they work together (natural musk).

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Well, as I said, I don't take him very often. But he does have a unique combination of abilities that is sometimes useful.

Scheming and strategies give victory points, so they're worth investing a lot of resources into.

It's true other models can do the same things he can do if you expend resources (via attacks, lead nightmare, etc). But Dreamer is a very resource intensive crew. You don't want to be using cards or lead nightmare on your scheme runners. Those are better spent on beaters.

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Keep in mind that his mobility will be augmented by the daydreams (and this applies to all of the mid to high cost, high impact nightmares, don't make serena bowman walk!), but only if you keep them together in range. He's at his best when you can lead nightmare him into a good spot to charge to the other side of the scrum and take something apart. Because of this ideal usage he will usually have the option of nightmare bombing somebody as well.

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