Ruling on push towards and away

[Tahsin118]

How does "towards and away" work in 3e. There seems to be some confusion going around my local group. The ruling seems to indicate a push towards (or away) must be continuously moving toward  the center of the models base. Does this mean that as long as my push towards is constantly moving closer to the center ( though not directly towards it ) that it is a valid push?

[CD1248]

You can break it down into three bullet points, true for both Towards and Away:

1. The move must take the model as close (or as far, in the case of Away) from the center of the target as possible. This means directly towards/away in most cases.

UNLESS:

2. The path is blocked by an impassable object, then the model will move around it by the shortest possible path.

UNLESS:

3: Moving around an object would result in the model moving in the opposite of the direction it's trying to go at any point, in which case the move stops immediately.

[NerdKaiser]

1 hour ago, CD1248 said:

You can break it down into three bullet points, true for both Towards and Away:

1. The move must take the model as close (or as far, in the case of Away) from the center of the target as possible. This means directly towards/away in most cases.

UNLESS:

2. The path is blocked by an impassable object, then the model will move around it by the shortest possible path.

UNLESS:

3: Moving around an object would result in the model moving in the opposite of the direction it's trying to go at any point, in which case the move stops immediately.

Thanks for the answer! Can you clarify where you get point 1 from? Specifically, "as close or as far as possible"? Because that would help solve our dilemma. 

As far as I can tell, the rulebook mentions that in the caption to the example image (which isn't a push, and isn't itself rules text), and in the paragraph about moving around an object (which wouldn't apply to a push), but it never explicitly states it in a clear way. 

Further question. In the case of a push, does the "as close or as far as possible" still apply? Logically you would think it does, but the paragraph which includes that line also says "unless that model is being pushed". Copied below for reference. 

"In both cases, unless that something is being Pushed, it will move around things that would impede its movement (such as terrain with the Impassable or Severe traits, as described on pg. 37), provided that doing so will get it as close or as far from the object as possible (as appropriate)."

So when pushing, must I move in a direct line to the target? Or can I push in any straight line that is overall towards my target? 

For clarification, the 2e rulebook used the word "directly" to describe toward and away movement, implying that your course was set - it had to be directly aimed at the target. The 3e rulebook does not say directly. Again, copied below:

"If something is moving “toward” an object, it must move toward the center of that object. If something is moving “away” from an object, it must move away from the center of that object."

Does moving toward the center of an object allow for us to push at angle if it's necessary? Or just if we want to? Or should it always be on a direct line between the two models regardless of terrain? 

[Paddywhack]

58 minutes ago, NerdKaiser said:

we take that WITHOUT the context from the next paragraph, which says it doesn't apply to pushed models, then we can wind up with all sorts of wacky angled pushes that technically end up closer than they began. Is this intended? 

What that means is that since a Push has to go in a straight line, it cannot move around any obstacles. Look in the Push section and it will tell you that the model stops instead. 

In M3e any movement towards our away is always from center to center. If it's a Move, you may be able to move around some obstacles as long as you never move further away or closer to the target. A Push must move in a straight line, so it will stop if it hits something. You must still try to Push towards or away from the model's center though, as stated in the rules for towards and away.

[Tahsin118]

3 minutes ago, CD1248 said:

UNLESS:

2. The path is blocked by an impassable object, then the model will move around it by the shortest possible path.

 

in this situation I assume you would need to continue to move in the line the wouldnt be blocked by terrain? as you cannot break pushes down into multiple segments.

[Tahsin118]

9 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

What that means is that since a Push has to go in a straight line, it cannot move around any obstacles. Look in the Push section and it will tell you that the model stops instead. 

In M3e any movement towards our away is always from center to center. If it's a Move, you may be able to move around some obstacles as long as you never move further away or closer to the target. A Push must move in a straight line, so it will stop if it hits something. You must still try to Push towards or away from the model's center though, as stated in the rules for towards and away.

So say we have the below set up. Model A is directed to push towards model B. Would it follow the line detailed. Or would it push diagonally into the wall and stop?

[NerdKaiser]

24 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

What that means is that since a Push has to go in a straight line, it cannot move around any obstacles. Look in the Push section and it will tell you that the model stops instead. 

In M3e any movement towards our away is always from center to center. If it's a Move, you may be able to move around some obstacles as long as you never move further away or closer to the target. A Push must move in a straight line, so it will stop if it hits something. You must still try to Push towards or away from the model's center though, as stated in the rules for towards and away.

Understood. Push must be in a straight line, it stops if it hits terrain, and it must be "towards" the center of a target. Question 1 is, since 2e said "directly" and 3e does not, does that imply a change in how direct the movement must be? Question 2, regardless of the 2e translation, is whether pushing "towards" the center of the target means you must draw a line between the two center points and only move on that line. For the record, I believe that to be true, I just don't see where the rules say it. 

This is complicated by the third paragraph of the Towards and Away section, which states that the goal of Towards and Away movement is to end up as close or as far as possible. That paragraph also says "unless being pushed", but that is in reference to moving around terrain. I know Push can't move around terrain, at least not as described there, but does the rest of that paragraph still apply, namely that any direction of movement is ok as long as it doesn't put you further away at any point, and ultimately ends as close as possible? If so, as reasonable people could argue, then pushing at an angle to the target is perfectly ok if it gets you around terrain and thus as close as possible to your target.

Stated another way, is "towards" the goal of the movement, or is it the exact direction of the movement? If pushing "towards" is about arriving as close as possible to the center of the target, then any angle that allows that should, and must, be taken. If pushing "towards" is a prescription for the exact course of movement, than of course it cannot choose to go at an angle, even if that angle would bring it closer to the target. Ultimately I don't see the answer in the rulebook and it is currently coming down to individual interpretation. If anyone can point me to a line I of rules text I am missing, please let me know. 

[solkan]

1 minute ago, NerdKaiser said:

Understood. Push must be in a straight line, it stops if it hits terrain, and it must be "towards" the center of a target. Question 1 is, since 2e said "directly" and 3e does not, does that imply a change in how direct the movement must be? Question 2, regardless of the 2e translation, is whether pushing "towards" the center of the target means you must draw a line between the two center points and only move on that line. For the record, I believe that to be true, I just don't see where the rules say it. 

Please explain what alternate definition of "towards the center of an object" you would like to use.

The whole "The model moved ten inches, and during that ten inches it decreased the distance between the two objects by a millimeter" isn't a very convincing "towards".  Especially when the permission to go around intervening obstacles is still phrased with the condition "provided that doing so will get it as close or as far from the object as possible (as appropriate)".

1 minute ago, NerdKaiser said:

This is complicated by the third paragraph of the Towards and Away section, which states that the goal of Towards and Away movement is to end up as close or as far as possible. That paragraph also says "unless being pushed", but that is in reference to moving around terrain. I know Push can't move around terrain, at least not as described there, but does the rest of that paragraph still apply, namely that any direction of movement is ok as long as it doesn't put you further away at any point, and ultimately ends as close as possible? If so, as reasonable people could argue, then pushing at an angle to the target is perfectly ok if it gets you around terrain. 

Remember that a Push has to be in a straight line.  If you angle a push in any direction except directly at the center, there is a point along that push where it changes from decreasing the distance and begins increasing the distance.

Put two models in base contact with the center of opposite sides of a 3" long wall.  Neither model can perform a move "toward" the other because in order to get closer than they currently are they would have to move away (to get around the wall).  And yet those same hypothetical "reasonable people" could be claimed to think that prohibition is unreasonable.

 

[NerdKaiser]

1 minute ago, solkan said:

Please explain what alternate definition of "towards the center of an object" you would like to use.

 

For the record, I am personally on the side of "towards means directly towards". I am just asking for where the rulebook says that. It never talks about drawing straight lines between centers of bases. 

And the alternate definition of "towards the center" is the one that occurs in the third paragraph of that section, which says that the end goal of Towards and Away movement is to arrive as close or as far as possible. If you need to Push at an angle to get around a corner and thus arrive closer than if you hadn't, should it be allowed? Does "towards" describe exactly one line of travel, or is it the end goal of arriving as close as you can to your target (while still moving in a straight line per Push). 

[Paddywhack]

1. In M3E all Towards and Away are 'directly' now. 

2. Correct. The only way to move towards/away from something in the shortest route (so never moving further or away from that center line) is straight on that line. Any deviation and you are no longer moving towards/away from the target. You're moving slighty off to the side. Towards and Away specifically say towards the center of the model - there is only way to do that.

A Push must move in a straight line and will stop when it hits something. It can't move off to the side as it won't be moving towards/away from the target. The only exception to that rule talks about moving around objects, BUT that specifically says not for objects being Pushed. If you are being Pushed, ignore that whole paragraph. It doesn't apply. 

 

[NerdKaiser]

2 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

1. In M3E all Towards and Away are 'directly' now. 

2. Correct. The only way to move towards/away from something in the shortest route (so never moving further or away from that center line) is straight on that line. Any deviation and you are no longer moving towards/away from the target. You're moving slighty off to the side. Towards and Away specifically say towards the center of the model - there is only way to do that.

A Push must move in a straight line and will stop when it hits something. It can't move off to the side as it won't be moving towards/away from the target. The only exception to that rule talks about moving around objects, BUT that specifically says not for objects being Pushed. If you are being Pushed, ignore that whole paragraph. It doesn't apply. 

 

So you are saying "towards" does indeed describe a path of movement, and only one path. Does that rely on "rules as intended" or is that stated somewhere? How do we know that all Towards and Away movement is "directly", or that we must take "the shortest route"? I don't see those in the text. For simplicity and clarity of rules, I want this to be true, just wondering how I can prove it to others. 

[Paddywhack]

Put two models on a table and if you have one use a horizontal laser, or just draw a line on some paper with the center of each model on that line. Start moving one model in a straight line towards the center point of the other. That is the only way to move towards the center of that model. 

Now place a rock in between the two models. Push one model towards the other and try to veer off to the side. Are you still on the line? No, then you are NOT moving towards the center of the other model. The rules for towards and away do not allow this. It says move towards the center of the model, period. 

The only exception to this states that it does not apply to a Push. Ignore that whole paragraph if it's a Push. 

[NerdKaiser]

You're asserting that we can't deviate from a line linking the two centers, and I think that makes sense, but I will need some black-and-white rulebook evidence to convince people at my local store. If the "center to center" definition of Towards isn't described in the book, and the word "directly" isn't mentioned anymore, it becomes my interpretation of what Towards means against my opponent's. If my opponent wants to push diagonally around that rock you mentioned, such that at no point he moves further from me and he ends up closer to me than when he started, how can I convince him that he's wrong? 

 

[Paddywhack]

Again - there is only one way to move towards a single point - the center of an object. That's basic physics. Not sure how else to explain it. If you Push off to one side you are not moving towards that point anymore are you? There is no interpretation of center of an object, it is a static point on the board. In a Push you are either moving towards/away from that exact point or you aren't. Anything that deviates from the line connecting the two is not moving towards that point anymore, period. The only rule that allows you to deviate does not apply to Pushes. 

Sounds like some of your opponents are being difficult to be difficult. Forget M2E rules and read M3E fresh, otherwise you get stuck on worrying about things that don't exist anymore. 

[NerdKaiser]

The problem is they could say the same of us - that we're the ones being difficult, trying to rules lawyer them out of what seems like a reasonable "towards" movement by inventing restrictions that aren't in the rulebook. I was hoping there was a line of text somewhere I had missed or an errata I could point to. In this case it looks like we will have to hash it out at the table. Thank you for your help. 

[Ogid]

The rules are clear about pushes, a push cannot be broken into smaller segments; if a model push and crash into something it cannot cross (models, impasable terrain...), then that model's movement stops and the rest of the push is lost.

In fact in the pg 15 it says

Quote

If something is moving “toward” an object, it must move toward the center of that object.
If something is moving “away” from an object, it must move away from the center of that object.
In both cases, unless that something is being Pushed, it will move around things that would impede its movement (such as terrain with the Impassable or Severe traits, as described on pg. 37), provided that doing so will get it as close or as far from the object as possible (as appropriate).

 

[Tahsin118]

6 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

 

The current issue appear to lay in the fact M3E wording uses the wording of "towards the center". Nothing in the rules state directly towards the center. The concept that appear to keep being implied is directly toward. Is this just an understood concept? Is this ruling left over from M2E and people are falling back on it? Is there somewhere in M3E that clearly defines the "directly" portion of this? 

 

RAW it seems that all towards cares about in M3E is that I am 

1) continuously moving closer at each step of the move

2) at no point am I moving away from the center of the model during the move

3) I end as close as possible to the model as long as rules 1 and 2 are not broken.

 

So the argument becomes in that picture above. Isn't following the line on model A meeting these requirements more so than just pushing a line directly at model B and stopping as soon as model A hits the wall.

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[Paddywhack]

3 hours ago, Tahsin118 said:

continuously moving closer at each step of the move

That's not what the rules say though. They say to move towards the center of the object. Not just get closer to.

There is a difference between moving towards a specific point and just getting closer to a specific point. The rules say you must move towards the center of the object. The only caveat is if it's a Move you can move around things if it gets you closer than you would otherwise get. That is the only mention of ending closer than you otherwise would in the rules. A Push doesn't have that exception though. You must move towards the center of the object. Pushing to another any other point is not moving towards the center of the model. 

The actual rule mentions nothing about as close to or as far from. That is in the paragraph that does not apply to pushes.

"If something is moving “toward” an object, it must move toward the center of that object. "

That's the rule in a nutshell when it comes to Pushes. We know Pushes have to be in a straight line, they stop if the hit something, and the Push itself will tell you how far to move towards the center of that object.  

[Ogid]

I guess in a nutshell the rules to move towards an object are:

• Push: Push center to center; if the movement is interrupted, it ends.
• Move: Move center to center; if the movement is interrupted, you may take the alternative shortest route as long as you don't move further from that object at any point.

[Domin]

Have a confusion while applying "toward" to a non-impassable marker.

For example, if we push model 4"'' towards a Pyre marker - where will the model stop? In base contac with a marker or when the center of her base will match the center of Pyre marker?

[jahatch28]

On 9/26/2019 at 11:12 AM, Domin said:

Have a confusion while applying "toward" to a non-impassable marker.

For example, if we push model 4"'' towards a Pyre marker - where will the model stop? In base contac with a marker or when the center of her base will match the center of Pyre marker?

Did we ever get an answer to this?  I had an very similar issue come up in a game this weekend and wasn't sure what to do... 

Does the model pushing "stop" at the edge of the marker?

Does the model pushing stop with it's edge at the center of the marker?

Does the model pushing stop when it's center is over the center of the marker?

- Thanks!

[Myyrä]

19 hours ago, jahatch28 said:

Did we ever get an answer to this?

No.

[MoFaux]

A bit of thread necromancy here but I had a question about a specific model's push mechanic: Gluttony. And I quote, "Maddening Drums- Choose a marker within 6" and LoS to the target. Push the target into base contact with the chosen marker, then remove all markers in base contact with the target..." I am only emphasizing this portion as its the only part that deals with model movement. To quote the rulebook, on page 15 it says "if something is moving "toward" an object it must move toward the center of that object." So heres my thing, at no point does his ability state "toward" the marker, it says "into base contact". Now, it is already pretty clear this gets around the issue of severe terrain, as there is no fixed distance to said marker given by the push, thus the movement would not be impeded by severe terrain. My question is, in this specific scenario, if there is a point you can draw from the model to the marker that allows for a straight line movement, would you push to get into base contact, or would it follow the rules for pushing "toward" an object? 

[Ogid]

That is worded weirdly... place into base contact or push towards something is expected, but not that weird mixture of "push into base contact"

In this case, this is defined as a push that try to go into base contact with something; so it should follow the rules of pushes (no breaking the movement in smaller parts, no change direction). So yes, the best way to resolve it (imo) is following the rules of pushing towards something until it gets errated/FAQed.

However in my opinion, I'd say this ability was expected to say "place into base contact with" but they wrote push instead of place, but that's just a guess. This ability has no push distance determined, something very inusual for a push (which also creates a weird situation if there is something in the way) and it has the "into base contact"; those problems get solved if the ability would be a place instead of a push.