Hot Take on Ol' Z

[DeadManTalking]

Zorida needs to be fixed...

Coming from a long time Neverborn player Z is broken and needs fixing. Now I understand that the popular opinion right now is that everything seems to be broken to a degree but Z in my opinion takes the cake. 

Her Obey has insane range and should not be able to force enemy to take interact actions that involve the strategy. Worse case scenario that I have seen in an actual game: Z from out of line of sight and a significant distance away obeys through a swamp fiend to make one of her opponents models walk up to a corrupted idol marker and chuck it onto her opponents side. It lands in base contact with another enemy model which she then obeys to throw it a further 3". Now that shes dropped 2 models to half wounds and made it pretty much impossible for her opponent to get that marker back, she does her free action to draw a whole new hand meanwhile her opponent has to dump a hand full of face cards. Then she wins initiative because she has 2 models with the pact upgrade, forced the marker to drop on the side she wants and makes her opponents models do it all over again killing 12 stones worth of models and basically guarnteeing her opponent never scores the strat. 

Now I understand that this is a worst case scenario but its honestly not that far from what she can do on any given turn. Having played several games both as her and against her now she is just not a fun play experience. There is no strategy that she is bad at. There are no schemes she struggles to accomplish. And in many cases she makes both strats and schemes far easier to accomplish. I play Neverborn both for fun and competitively and I don't think she should be this good. 

[msgfree]

4 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Zorida needs to be fixed...

Coming from a long time Neverborn player Z is broken and needs fixing. Now I understand that the popular opinion right now is that everything seems to be broken to a degree but Z in my opinion takes the cake. 

Her Obey has insane range and should not be able to force enemy to take interact actions that involve the strategy. Worse case scenario that I have seen in an actual game: Z from out of line of sight and a significant distance away obeys through a swamp fiend to make one of her opponents models walk up to a corrupted idol marker and chuck it onto her opponents side. It lands in base contact with another enemy model which she then obeys to throw it a further 3". Now that shes dropped 2 models to half wounds and made it pretty much impossible for her opponent to get that marker back, she does her free action to draw a whole new hand meanwhile her opponent has to dump a hand full of face cards. Then she wins initiative because she has 2 models with the pact upgrade, forced the marker to drop on the side she wants and makes her opponents models do it all over again killing 12 stones worth of models and basically guarnteeing her opponent never scores the strat. 

Now I understand that this is a worst case scenario but its honestly not that far from what she can do on any given turn. Having played several games both as her and against her now she is just not a fun play experience. There is no strategy that she is bad at. There are no schemes she struggles to accomplish. And in many cases she makes both strats and schemes far easier to accomplish. I play Neverborn both for fun and competitively and I don't think she should be this good. 

What changes do you propose to address your concerns?

[DeadManTalking]

The main 2 changes I see her needing is her Obey and this would apply to any model with the ability is that she cannot Obey an enemy model to take an interact action that impacts the strategy. So no forcing enemies to take 3 irreducible dmg and chuck a corrupted idol, no forcing models to drop the explosive markers they are carrying, and no flipping turf markers through enemy models. This could also be fixed through GG by simply adding that into the strat descriptions. Obey is already a very strong action and Z's is above and beyond other models with the action. Dont get me wrong I understand shes a master but at a stat 7 she can force through the obeys burning her hand to do so but then getting to draw a whole new hand after doing so, which leads me to the second change.

 Her free action. This could be changed in a few different ways but I think there are 2 fair ways. Either A) change the wording to be Z may discard up to 6 cards for each card discarded in this manner her opponent must also discard a card, then each player may draw a number of cards equal to the number of cards they discarded. Or B) it stays the way it is but remove the part that forces your opponent to discard and draw. If you go with option A then Z can use her high cards to force obeys through but then wont be drawing as many cards but still gives her the opportunity to mess with her opponents hand. Option B allows her to get a whole new hand but removes her ability to mess with her opponent's.

[Ogid]

I've not played her yet and I'm curious about her potential... how is she doing in competitive play? Is she that good that need to be nerfed?

[DeadManTalking]

21 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I've not played her yet and I'm curious about her potential... how is she doing in competitive play? Is she that good that need to be nerfed?

So this is where I'm surprised and maybe it's just because it is early in the edition but she seems to be flying under the radar. NOVA only saw her appear in 3 games the entire tournament. If you haven't played her yet try out a list like this and you and your opponent will see that it really is not a fun game.

Z

Bad Juju w/ Pact

First Mate w/ Pact 

Grootslang

2x Silurids 

2x Will O Wisps

Grootslang and silurids are your main scheme runners, any big stuff send Juju and First Mate. Keep a wisp near Z because if anything gets close to her including enemy masters you make the voodoo doll attach the upgrade to the model you want to shut down, then hit it with the wisp to auto give them Distracted, Stunned, and Slow. Even masters will be gimped hard with all those conditions especially if they are dependent on triggers.

[esqulax]

The big thing really is how her obeys interact with Corrupted Idols and to a lesser degree Plant Explosives. Once we get some new strats from Gaining Grounds that are (hopefully) less broken with obey, I think Zoraida will fall way more in line. 

I do think that her hand discard should have to target an opponents model and win an opposed duel for it to work. I don't like that there is nothing to be done about it. 

[Ogid]

Ty for the list! I know the playstyle, but lack experiencie.

My issue is more with preemptively nerfing masters or models for being "unfun" or for being too good versus opponent not knowing how to fight versus them. If she is overperforming then sure, nerf bat. But if she isn't even being played in competitive, I don't think a nerf just in case is justified.

Her crew play quite differently to others and need the oponent to go versus her with a tailored plan. Getting caugh by all her shenanigans could be infuriating, but that doesn't mean she is broken; some of the issues described seem more like the other player not playing well the match up. I personaly like to play with/versus different styles (even those considered npe) and I don't want her nerfed if she isn't strong enough to deserve it.

For example, here is a battle report of a player who seems to know what he is doing when building a crew versus her:

 

[Regelridderen]

Speaking of which - is the old crone set for getting new models? She sounds like fun

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Honestly, if she had her lure reduced to six inches I would still probably field her in my Dreamer crew when I'm playing at a cutthroat level (I don't field her in casual games).

I think she needs two changes:

• Lure reduce to six inches (maybe eight)
• Her discard/draw hands should only be usable if she is the crew leader. And maybe should be start of activation (make the doll a bonus action).

That said, I've not played her crew, but it definitely feels like she'd still be strong as hell even with those changes. It'd just mean her Swampfiends had to be a little bit closer to you, and she wouldn't have an effective 24" range on it... She'd 'only' have an 18 inch range.

If her card draw was start of activation, she couldn't spam out a few severes getting her obeys off and reloading halfway through the turn.

[Barmution]

Competitive tournament performance should be the sole origin of erratas and esp. nerfs IMHO. These forums have been full of predictions about different masters being completely OP and then something like Kaeris, Tara or Dreamer (which was absurdly enough decried as weak by some to the point of shrieking when anybody even mentions Stitched ) comes in and wins several tournaments as solo masters or at least mains. I don't think forum consensus amounts to much because the really competitive players *are* looking at everything; presuming that stuff has gone under their radar is just that: Presumptuous.

That said things aren't set in stone by any margin yet and the metas have yet to shake out. I wouldn't be adverse to an indirect nerf to Obey to change the wording on either Obey itself or the strategies to prevent models from taking Interact actions defined by the strategy while being controlled by the opposing crew.

[Ogid]

IDK... she seem quite strong but it's about building and adapting the play versus her.

Her ability to dump both players hands is powerful, but as both players are getting cards is about adapting to it. The other player has to keep his card expenditure a bit ahead of Zoraida, to make her think twice about using it... hoard big cards for that perfect moment versus her is asking for trouble.

Simmilarily, leaving a model in b2b with an objetive/idol is again asking her to wreck you, picking models with movement shenanigans so they will never be in base with an objetive (or at least she has to get ensorcer to do it) would be the best. Explosives seems hard versus her, but again stealth, from shadows, very fast models able to reach the other half of the table in 1 activation, double master and putting the explosives on them (cannot obey masters)... there are ways to get around it.

Another choice: picking models with defensive tech about being obeyed (cannot be moved/take actions outside his activation...) or make the targeting harder (stealth).

Silurids are slippery and annoying but with 6 HP they may be killed with only 1 attack from someone with severe 6, the key is not giving them the oportunity to use butterfly jump (concentrate and use well that one attack); or using models able to reposition after attacking.

The grootslang seems a really fun and tactical model (tonge pull + Wicked, slink away, the lair shenanigans...), but it's not a combat powerhouse, nor that fast outside the ability to move around the map with the lairs (which costs cards and normal actions)

Bad Juju can heal a lot and has hard to wound and eternal... but it is a df3 model. A model with onslaught and a decent dmg track will eat through his wd bar quickly, with decent focus he can be killed (or will make zoraida to spend a lot of SS keeping him alive).

The first mate... that's a difficult one, that model is very good. I'd say chasing him is pointless, so ignoring him would be the best move. But this one can also bite, so keep vulnerable models well covered by other models and if he makes the first move, other models could counterstrike hard.

The doll shenanigans are good, but as the summoning is tied to the start of the activation, the other player can control it by not leaving models in that range. And when the players are getting close, it needs 2 activations (first zoraida summoning the doll, and then the wisp doing its thing); face rush them and kill either the wisp or the doll.

Zoraida has only df5 but regret trigger is a serius threat... if a model with unnerving pressence may be included, that's a great way to dissable her defensive tech; or making 1 spell/ranged attack before charging, concentrate + attack...

She seems to struggle versus enemy mass stealth, fast crews that may get in her face quickly, run and gun seem also an amazing ability versus her crew.

She seem to be a potential very good double master; but How many double master lists with her are being played at high levels? How good she is compared with other double master comps (from NVB and from other factions)?

 

As I said before I've not played her, so I'm not sure how good she is; but for what I see in the cards she seem to be the kind of master that will destroy a player who doesn't know how to play versus her. But knowing her tricks and building versus her, she seems beatable and fun to play against (which may also explain why she doesn't see that much play in competitive play, where knowledgeable players will know how to adapt versus her).

As said before in this thread by other players... if it's not broken, then it's better not to try to "fix" it.

[Wenshai]

Its been two months and Zoraidas wrecked face on people who dont know how to play vs her. 

 

Still early days to call her broken.

 

Agreed what happened to your opponent was nasty though. Good play.

[Barmution]

As a Zoraida player I can tell you that the obvious counter play to Obey is concealment. Zoraida isn't really fond of having to spend 2 actions to get an Obey off (Focus to counter negative from concealment). Ideally you have models that provide an aura of concealment so that you can cover Z's own beaters too, since the TN of Obey is 14 it makes Obey w relent really risky (need to flip a 7 or better on 2 cards). In general, use the terrain to your advantage or bring your own terrain (preferably blocking), Z is not happy when she has to spend her actions walking. Also make sure to remember that you can relent attacks from your own models when they are being Obey'ed. That means that you will most likely only suffer min damage. Try to eliminate her key pieces or at least make her work to Obey them.

Then there's the specific tech pieces with abilities like "Hostile Work Environment" etc. They are pretty few and far between but well worth it against Z if they're available to your faction.

Does this change the fact that she is incredibly strong in Corrupted Idols and Plant Explosives? No. But it does provide an amount of counter play. She's definitely not invincible, even in those strategies, and I think the current 3e tournament records provide enough evidence to say that she's not broken.

[ezramantis]

As someone who stuck with Zoraida and her swampfiends through M2E when she was considered a low tier master, I'm glad to see she's now actually a concern for other players .

As someone who stuck with Zoraida and her swampfiends through M2E and managed to play her reasonably effectively against stronger crews that had easier synergies and tactics, I say it's their turn to get creative to play against me .

As someone who yadda yadda yadda...I'll be pretty bummed if she gets nerfed into low tier again as a reaction rather than the community discussing counter strategy and learning to play against her. So I'm glad to see some really good suggestions on dealing with her in this thread.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also double master seems super good against her, as she can't obey masters.

[Sharp_GT]

8 hours ago, Barmution said:

As a Zoraida player I can tell you that the obvious counter play to Obey is concealment.

hits the nail on the head. treat her like any ranged master, concealment, stealth etc and you're golden. she's good because of action economy and if you hurt that she suffers.

22 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

...Her free action. This could be changed in a few different ways but I think there are 2 fair ways. Either A) change the wording to be Z may discard up to 6 cards for each card discarded in this manner her opponent must also discard a card, then each player may draw a number of cards equal to the number of cards they discarded. Or B) it stays the way it is but remove the part that forces your opponent to discard and draw. If you go with option A then Z can use her high cards to force obeys through but then wont be drawing as many cards but still gives her the opportunity to mess with her opponents hand. Option B allows her to get a whole new hand but removes her ability to mess with her opponent's.

so my experience in this game and in tcg's tells me that option B here would be a straight up upgrade to her ability. Option A is basically can upgraded version of lynch's mulligan from last edition and would barely affect the power level. Her bonus action is admittedly very powerful in a vacuum, but it symmetrical so it can be played around. 

I'll just echo what others have said: zoraida is very powerful, especially in corrupted idols, but not so much that she is out of balance. As players learn her tricks and how to counter them she is less effective. Obey in general is powerful in C.I. and she just happens to be the best at that action. If you look at the tournament scene so far you will see that she is far from a dominant force

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Sharp_GT everyone keeps referencing tournament results, but where does one find them? What IS doing well in tournaments?

[theamazingmrg]

My main issue with Zoraida is how much Stealth there is in her Keyword.  Basically the Entire Bayou side of things .  This means that you need to get close in order to deal with them, which puts you right in range of her Obey, pretty much wherever you are on the table.  That's what makes it so strong, even more so than the fact she can use the Trigger to Obey twice.

[LeperColony]

47 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

Obey in general is powerful in C.I.

Obey is powerful in general. 

But also, control effects are designed, by their very nature, to produce negative play experience.  Now, to be clear, they're perfectly legitimate and there's nothing wrong with including them.  They also appeal to a particular class of player, who definitely deserves the opportunity to play it.  However, if it works, what it does is reduce or entirely eliminate not just counterplay, but play of any sort from your opponent.

Zoraida combines a powerful obey effect with high stat, a very effective trigger, extended range and the potential to draw LoS around terrain.  This is not to say she is necessarily overpowered, but she is incredibly strong in a mechanic many people don't like playing against, which no doubt increases the sense of unfairness one may feel when facing her.  

[zavros]

I agree ConfuciuSay. There's barely any counterplay to what she is doing and it forces you to play in a very specific way which is just not fun (no one in our store wants to play against her). Concealment  and double masters help a lot and you have to aggressively kill her as there's no way to beat her on objectives until you kill her. Stealth actually doesn't work as she can draw LoS through other dudes near you ignoring it. You can't stack up a good hand to try and kill her, she cycles it every turn. No one in the game can actually resist her obey without being a master or have unyielding; I haven't seen a WP8 model yet.  An obeyed friendly model ignores a lot of defensive rules like terrifying and serene countenance, plus you can burn any focus stacked up on the obeyed model.  Shes always hiding behind something so usually you end up being forced to melee her, playing into the regret trigger.

If your opponent takes her as a secondary master it gets way more oppressive. There is no way to plan for it. Her cost should be upped to somewhere near 20-24ss if she stays the same to adjust for how absurd she is as a secondary.

I'm not sure if GG19/20 will fix any of her issues, it could actually get worse depending on the objectives. 

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, ezramantis said:

As someone who yadda yadda yadda...I'll be pretty bummed if she gets nerfed into low tier again as a reaction rather than the community discussing counter strategy and learning to play against her. So I'm glad to see some really good suggestions on dealing with her in this thread.

I'll QFT. Having masters who forces the other player to adapt is a really good thing! 

[LeperColony]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

I'll QFT. Having masters who forces the other player to adapt is a really good thing! 

I'd agree with that as well, so long as the adaptation isn't because the model is horribly broken.  

[Sharp_GT]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Sharp_GT everyone keeps referencing tournament results, but where does one find them? What IS doing well in tournaments?

Sadly I've just been trolling through batreps and game logs since logfaux went away. Betweens those and podcasts covering the tournaments you can get the basic shape of the meta so far

[Barmution]

9 hours ago, zavros said:

 (no one in our store wants to play against her)

Seems like you have found a way to get around the problem locally then. Just don't try to force your particular solution onto metas, players and tournaments that actively seek to play the game as the pick/counterpick and play/counterplay game that M3e is (way more than M2e).

[Hawkoon]

9 hours ago, zavros said:

 I haven't seen a WP8 model yet.

Well, there is one, and guess which model that is 🤣

Edit: Actually there are 2, I forgot about Ashen core.