Hot Take on Ol' Z

[Erik1978]

I've only hosted 1 tournament so far (with official M3E rules that is), not surprisingly the winner fielded Zoraida as secondary Master.

Quote

For example, here is a battle report of a player who seems to know what he is doing when building a crew versus her:

 

Yeah, that's great when you know you are gonna play against her.

When you are up against Dreamer you can't really put together a counter-Zoraida crew just because she MIGHT be hired into the crew. 

But even as a primary Master, she is not very fun to play against. Insane range on Obey and besides strats, it's never fun to see your own model walk once, then charge your own model back towards your own table edge, making it a full activation farther behind, as well as hitting a weak totem in the face. And concealment won't help if she REALLY wants to hit that 10 stone beater with her stat 7 double mask attack. And she probably does.

I think the range should be changed, the ability to take interact actions with enemies, and her card craw mechanic. I don't mind Obey but I think it should be walk or attack actions, that's it.

[Scoffer]

4 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I've only hosted 1 tournament so far (with official M3E rules that is), not surprisingly the winner fielded Zoraida as secondary Master.

Yeah, that's great when you know you are gonna play against her.

When you are up against Dreamer you can't really put together a counter-Zoraida crew just because she MIGHT be hired into the crew. 

But even as a primary Master, she is not very fun to play against. Insane range on Obey and besides strats, it's never fun to see your own model walk once, then charge your own model back towards your own table edge, making it a full activation farther behind, as well as hitting a weak totem in the face. And concealment won't help if she REALLY wants to hit that 10 stone beater with her stat 7 double mask attack. And she probably does.

I think the range should be changed, the ability to take interact actions with enemies, and her card craw mechanic. I don't mind Obey but I think it should be walk or attack actions, that's it.

When Zoraida is a secondary master, she usualy doesn't have many (if any) swampfiends to use Eyes In The Night from safe distance. So she has to come close enough to be shot to death. Also you can hide your models from her LoS, outflank her and so on.

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, zavros said:

There's barely any counterplay to what she is doing and it forces you to play in a very specific way which is just not fun (no one in our store wants to play against her).

But that's not exclusive of her, a lot of masters forces the other player to adapt...

What about talking with your local Zoraida player and switch crews? By playing it you could undersand his playstyle better and see the weak points; and his player will already know its weaknessess and would be able to beat it with other crews.

 

About Zoraida as a second Master... Yeah, it's very good, but if double master is going to stay as it is, I see little reason for nerfing her; she is good but without his keyword she loses a lot of range and some draw. Also there are a lot of retardly good double masters and powerful crews out there, asking Wyrd to nerf one of our best doubles isn't the best move if the rest are going to be left unchecked lol.

A thread in the bayou talks about why she is good as a second master, they make good poits; check it out:

 

[Erik1978]

 

If Zoraida could "only" move or attack with enemy models (but perhaps do more with her own), I think it would more fun to play against her. And more balanced.

[Scoffer]

 

13 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

 

If Zoraida could "only" move or attack with enemy models (but perhaps do more with her own), I think it would more fun to play against her. And more balanced.

There's a plenty of games, where models can only move and attack.

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

It's really the base strats that give the most grief I feel to people, when Zoraida is on the board.  I'm less sure about the feasibility of Turf marker flipping, but I understand the pain people feel in cursed idols and explosives.  Does that really require changing Zoraida though?  I think it is far simpler and better for the game to errata the strats or introduce GG strats that alter her obey usage with them.

Points for and against have been shown and if we never all agree, we'll need to be ok with it.  From my point I haven't heard anything against her (other than her interaction with strats) that has been shown to give a consistent issue.  Most arguments seem to be along the lines of "in this situation, all the bad things happened and it sucked" or "her potential to make things go badly for me is too strong".  These are valid complaints and I sympathize. It just isn't consistent enough a problem I feel.

 

In my games, if my opponent doesn't want his beater attacking his friends, he'll keep it away until late turn, and away from swampfiends. Maybe he doesn't push so far forward with it T1.  Either Z goes earlier and does something else or obeys a different target.  Outside of a specific table, I can't see a swampfiend getting close enough to not take a punishment T1, while being close enough to Z to be an arcnode. She HATES walking.  Old people get like that sometimes.  Blocking terrain hinders her, concealing terrain hinders her, severe terrain hinders, scatter terrain can block charge lanes.  I get that Obeys are annoying. We have two Zoraida players in our meta, I'm one of them and people find creative ways to avoid her strengths (I remember a particularly nasty game vs Nekima where blackblood was wrecking everything and healing the enemy sometimes!).  Playing against her is also tough, she's strong for sure, but just like Zoraida can RJ an obey that's unblockable, she can also get a hand with nothing above an 8.

My experience with card cycle has been a net gain for both players. I only use it to try and stack my hand after using my nice cards, and I get decent cards back but so does my opponent usually. I have more control over it, sure. It ain't guaranteed by any means though.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

When Zoraida is a secondary master, she usualy doesn't have many (if any) swampfiends to use Eyes In The Night from safe distance. So she has to come close enough to be shot to death. Also you can hide your models from her LoS, outflank her and so on.

When Zoraida is a secondary master, Dreamer takes her for card draw + her doll, and happily obeys his own models (in fact, it is usually a bit more card efficient).

She is just so good in so many ways, she seems to be the obvious thing to take for tons of scenarios/crews.

Not that I think she needs to be errata-ed now, but I'd say she should be watched.

[Gaston]

Zoraida aside, the issue I have with Obey is being able to spend conditions, upgrades, and tokens. For example, you can Obey a Chimera and force them to toss a mutation. Or I have had Hooded Rider Obey'd and they spent 10 tokens to generate 10 masks on an attack.

[zavros]

6 hours ago, Barmution said:

Seems like you have found a way to get around the problem locally then. Just don't try to force your particular solution onto metas, players and tournaments that actively seek to play the game as the pick/counterpick and play/counterplay game that M3e is (way more than M2e).

That's the thing though, you'll eventually find that you pick/counterpick will start ending up the same for zoraida's matchup as the tools to fight it are incredibly limited and not available to every faction. There's only 3 models with unyielding in the game and not all masters are good secondary masters. It really isn't fun once you get to that point as there isn't much room to adjust your list. 

5 hours ago, Scoffer said:

When Zoraida is a secondary master, she usualy doesn't have many (if any) swampfiends to use Eyes In The Night from safe distance. So she has to come close enough to be shot to death. Also you can hide your models from her LoS, outflank her and so on.

She can still curse someone with her doll and extend off of that model. generally our local zoraida player is in bayou, so they just hire first mate out of keyword when taken as a secondary. Sneaking around terrain doesn't help unless its concealing since she can draw LoS through other models. She can also just obey her own models, her actions are never wasted even if you hide, 2 extra attacks from a beater like first mate is still very good.

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

But that's not exclusive of her, a lot of masters forces the other player to adapt...

What about talking with your local Zoraida player and switch crews? By playing it you could undersand his playstyle better and see the weak points; and his player will already know its weaknessess and would be able to beat it with other crews.

I agree, but for other masters there's usually more than one model that would be useful against that master. For example, hoffman has lots of armor and fighting him directly is bad. Instead I can take models with ap triggers or models that have status effect triggers on their attacks like slow/distracted to fight against hoffman. Against zoraida theres...Secondary Masters...Unyielding(3 models in the game)...and concealment(still more of a soft counter). You can still fight hoffman on objectives despite him smashing your face in and you can also just try to fight him by bypassing armor or attacking their WP. Against zoraida you can't fight her on objectives as her crew is slippery and mobile, so you have to specifically fight her and her models. There's only so many models that can interact favorably with her and her crew so your pool of options becomes fairly static as if you do anything else you just lose.

We have swapped, thats why I think there's problems here.

3 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

In my games, if my opponent doesn't want his beater attacking his friends, he'll keep it away until late turn, and away from swampfiends. Maybe he doesn't push so far forward with it T1.  Either Z goes earlier and does something else or obeys a different target.  Outside of a specific table, I can't see a swampfiend getting close enough to not take a punishment T1, while being close enough to Z to be an arcnode. She HATES walking.  Old people get like that sometimes.  Blocking terrain hinders her, concealing terrain hinders her, severe terrain hinders, scatter terrain can block charge lanes.  I get that Obeys are annoying. We have two Zoraida players in our meta, I'm one of them and people find creative ways to avoid her strengths (I remember a particularly nasty game vs Nekima where blackblood was wrecking everything and healing the enemy sometimes!).  Playing against her is also tough, she's strong for sure, but just like Zoraida can RJ an obey that's unblockable, she can also get a hand with nothing above an 8.

My experience with card cycle has been a net gain for both players. I only use it to try and stack my hand after using my nice cards, and I get decent cards back but so does my opponent usually. I have more control over it, sure. It ain't guaranteed by any means though.

It's not that counterplay doesn't exist, its that its so limited that the games are just not fun. 12" arc node + 12" range covers 2/3 of the table, hard to get away from that without lots of blocking terrain and that doesn't include both players initial deployments. If your hand has nothing higher than an 8, you have an ability that gives you an entire new hand? 

54 minutes ago, Gaston said:

Zoraida aside, the issue I have with Obey is being able to spend conditions, upgrades, and tokens. For example, you can Obey a Chimera and force them to toss a mutation. Or I have had Hooded Rider Obey'd and they spent 10 tokens to generate 10 masks on an attack.

Agreed. Just burning focus on hitting their own models is brutal, your effectively stealing some of their previous ap.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Gaston said:

Zoraida aside, the issue I have with Obey is being able to spend conditions, upgrades, and tokens. For example, you can Obey a Chimera and force them to toss a mutation. Or I have had Hooded Rider Obey'd and they spent 10 tokens to generate 10 masks on an attack.

This isn't that bad, a bit of counterplay to things like these is fine.  Specially considering what the riders can do with these tokens, they have the mobility and the Wp to stay safe until the right moment come. With Chimera... well, there are beast without the ability to discard it, and there are mutations that give stealth to keep them safer... each one has its tools.

 

1 hour ago, zavros said:

I agree, but for other masters there's usually more than one model that would be useful against that master. For example, hoffman has lots of armor and fighting him directly is bad. Instead I can take models with ap triggers or models that have status effect triggers on their attacks like slow/distracted to fight against hoffman. Against zoraida theres...Secondary Masters...Unyielding(3 models in the game)...and concealment(still more of a soft counter). You can still fight hoffman on objectives despite him smashing your face in and you can also just try to fight him by bypassing armor or attacking their WP. Against zoraida you can't fight her on objectives as her crew is slippery and mobile, so you have to specifically fight her and her models. There's only so many models that can interact favorably with her and her crew so your pool of options becomes fairly static as if you do anything else you just lose.

We have swapped, thats why I think there's problems here.

IDK... there seem to be here some players with experiencie with that keyword, let's try to figure out how to beat her with what you have (or adding few proxies). Which crews (and models) do you have to fight her? Which model your local Zoraida player usually take? What is his playstyle?

[TheJoyInGaming]

This reminds me of the Reva panic when she first dropped and some were concerned about her ability to shoot through corpse markers (I say this as someone who played Reva against those who were concerned about it). Reva’s range was never tuned down in M2E, however, it was stated in Reva’s gameplay description for M3E that her range was shortened to give opponents more of a chance. It seems strange then that Zoraida would be able to use her nodes more affectively, and arguably with a much more powerful action, than Reva if Reva’s M2E board presence was considered too much of an NPE and had to be changed. Take this line of thought with a grain of salt though; Wyrd is known for being tongue-in-cheek with their descriptions of things. 

I think it likely she will be nerfed, mostly based on principle. I don’t think it likely to happen anytime soon though. Most likely the first GG will attempt to change things for the better and 1 of 2 things will happen. Either the game designers will be successful but get tired of designing various Strats and Schemes around balancing Zoraida; or they will not be successful and she will be nerfed, though hopefully not down to pre-errata Lucius power level.

[Ogid]

Check this out: It seems this tournament was won by Arcanists, here is the crew one the finalists (I'm not sure if he won the tournament or not) used versus a Zoraida in Idols (who lost that game) and the comment of that player about the game.

For the Arcanist player list, it seems he went for pure speed (lot of nimbles, the mannequins who may be dragged and a soulstone miner to have a global unbury point for Colette) and took advantage of the fact that the swampfiend aren't that dangerous in combat as other crews.

The build is clearly designed with Zoraida in mind. He used Diesel engine to give extra movement and concealment (!) to his runners; concealment being particularily hard for Zoraida as commented in this thread. Nimble is great to be able to push an idol and still have points to move away from it and avoid even ensorcer (in addition to the pure speed for scheming purposes), their models have few ranged abilities (and he probably splitted his guys) so Zoraida had an even harder time using Obey offensively.

So this Arcanist player beated Zoraida in one of her best pools without needing to kill or even engage her, just by pure objs game. This is just a game and I don't know if the Arcanist's player is better than the Zoraida's; but this kind of reinforce what I thought before. Players who know how to play the match are able to beat her.

On 7/23/2019 at 9:06 PM, Flippin' Wyrd Matt said:

Hey Everyone! 

I have had a lot of people asking me what crews I ran at the Scottish GT so I thought I would start a new thread so we can chat about the weekend and all things Scotland and Arcanists. More then just me running them this weekend so seems only fair we can all chat here! 

So here is my lists and what the game was I have put the Schemes I took in bold.  So lets Discuss!

(...)

Round 5 – VS Zoraida

Strat – Corrupted Idols

Schemes

Hold up their Forces

Power Ritual

Claim Jump

Detonate the Charges

Search the Ruins

Crew

Colette

Cassandra

2x Coryphee – Diesel Engine

2x Mannequin

Showgirl

Soulstone Miner – Magical Training

3x Mechanical Doves

On 7/23/2019 at 10:48 PM, Flippin' Wyrd George said:

This crew was just gross. It went so wide, so quickly, that there was nothing my hired Zoraida crew could do to stop any of Matt's scheme or idol points, especially with Colette being able to teleport to any friendly model she wanted. I'm not even sure he killed any of my models except the Silurid, and Bokor very late on? There was no need. 

I tried to kill the Coryphee (which had to be done at range with focus because they were so far out and concealed), but they are just replaced with a significant Mannequin so it doesn't feel like any inroads are made. The Soulstone miner and Colette stay hidden until they are needed, and then teleport where required.

 

I think I could have put most any Bayou crew on the table and the outcome would have been the same. A very well put together, cleverly constructed, crew. I'm going to have to seriously think about my hires vs. Arcanists in this sort of scheme pool!

 

 

[LeperColony]

No crew is invincible.  And because of Malifaux's rock-paper-scissors dynamic, it's possible for an overperforming master to struggle in particular match ups and still be stronger than the average leader.  In fact, an "OP" master could even be countered by a master that is weaker relative to the overall pool.  

It's not particularly surprising that a custom anti-Zoraida list performed effectively against her, but I also see a few details that indicate the Zoraida player could have made other choices.  For instance, he says Colette was teleporting all over, but if you don't attack her she can't use her bury/unbury mechanic and presto-chango, while powerful, is not as effective for moving "anywhere" (so I'm assuming it wasn't the effect the Zoraida player struggled against).

I've used Diesel Engine in this match up as well, and it's a good pick.  But there are options, for instance putting the Voodoo Doll on the Coryphee.  Since Coryphee have poor WP, they're pretty easy to boss around if you're not trying at .

 

Is Zoraida overpowered?  I don't know that I can say she is.  But she is strong in a mechanic many people (myself included, to a lesser degree) simply don't enjoy facing.  Regardless of the results, it makes the game "less fun" to players with these sentiments.  Now, as it happens, I do believe her  trigger would benefit from adjustment, and if it were up to me, I'd have preferred if the resulting action had restrictions (maybe move only or action is at reduced stat or ), because it's not particularly difficult to pull off and it can really put you ahead in the actions attrition game.  

 

[Sharp_GT]

7 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

This reminds me of the Reva panic when she first dropped and some were concerned about her ability to shoot through corpse markers (I say this as someone who played Reva against those who were concerned about it). Reva’s range was never tuned down in M2E, .....

this is the perfect example to look at. Remember when reva first dropped and everyone was all chicken little about how she could shoot through corpses, ignoring just about all defensive tech? Everyone was loosing their minds, but a couple months later (weeks in some metas) she was right in line with all other masters, and no one gave a crap about her anymore. Right now a lot of players are crying that the sky is falling with zoraida, but I'm willing to bet that we'll see her fade from the spotlight soon enough as players catch wise.

There was the better part of a year for these models and masters to get put through the wringer in the closed and then open betas, and I doubt that a master from the most popular faction would have squeaked through without serious scrutiny.

[TheJoyInGaming]

1 hour ago, Sharp_GT said:

this is the perfect example to look at. Remember when reva first dropped and everyone was all chicken little about how she could shoot through corpses, ignoring just about all defensive tech? Everyone was loosing their minds, but a couple months later (weeks in some metas) she was right in line with all other masters, and no one gave a crap about her anymore. Right now a lot of players are crying that the sky is falling with zoraida, but I'm willing to bet that we'll see her fade from the spotlight soon enough as players catch wise.

There was the better part of a year for these models and masters to get put through the wringer in the closed and then open betas, and I doubt that a master from the most popular faction would have squeaked through without serious scrutiny.

To add my personal take on the matter, I don’t feel there has been enough data to make a judgement call one way or the other as to whether or not Zoraida is OP and  requiring a nerf. I think that it is best to let her stay the way she is, and try to do any small corrections through Scheme and Strat design in the coming GG if only for the fact that a nerf this soon to a Master could further damage the public’s perception of Malifaux. People buy models for rules too, and there is no need to sour them with quick errata when the existing distribution issues are already causing problems. 

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

19 hours ago, Gaston said:

Zoraida aside, the issue I have with Obey is being able to spend conditions, upgrades, and tokens. For example, you can Obey a Chimera and force them to toss a mutation. Or I have had Hooded Rider Obey'd and they spent 10 tokens to generate 10 masks on an attack.

I honestly didn't know this was possible. I guess I've been playing friendly Zoraida for all of M2E and so far in M3E.  THAT STOPS NOW!  😝.  No, I agree those interactions would feel bad.

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, LeperColony said:

No crew is invincible.  And because of Malifaux's rock-paper-scissors dynamic, it's possible for an overperforming master to struggle in particular match ups and still be stronger than the average leader.  In fact, an "OP" master could even be countered by a master that is weaker relative to the overall pool.  

It's not particularly surprising that a custom anti-Zoraida list performed effectively against her, but I also see a few details that indicate the Zoraida player could have made other choices.  For instance, he says Colette was teleporting all over, but if you don't attack her she can't use her bury/unbury mechanic and presto-chango, while powerful, is not as effective for moving "anywhere" (so I'm assuming it wasn't the effect the Zoraida player struggled against).

I've used Diesel Engine in this match up as well, and it's a good pick.  But there are options, for instance putting the Voodoo Doll on the Coryphee.  Since Coryphee have poor WP, they're pretty easy to boss around if you're not trying at .

That's what I've trying to point out in this thread. People aren't winning tournaments because they are being lucky versus her, they win because they know how to play the match up; so she doesn't look OP according to all of that. And maybe some niche and weak masters could have the edge versus her, but people go to tournaments to play the strongest combos and masters they have, and Zoraida should be losing versus that.

In this thread I've posted 2 battle reports (one from a tournament) with 2 players destroying Zoraida after making crews with her in mind. In the TT case, a double master fast and hard hitting crew to face rush her, in the Arcanist case by outscoring her without even engaging.

About these hints from the game: Colette may bury herself, stoning for Twist Ending, and she can even do it attacking one of his models using a low mask card is she really needs it. Putting a Voodoo dool in the coryphee relies in the arcanist player making the big mistake of leaving 1 of his coryphees at 12'' or less from Zoraida. These doesn't points toward the Zoraida player making mistakes, but towards the Arcanist one knowing his crew inside out.

10 hours ago, LeperColony said:

Is Zoraida overpowered?  I don't know that I can say she is.  But she is strong in a mechanic many people (myself included, to a lesser degree) simply don't enjoy facing.  Regardless of the results, it makes the game "less fun" to players with these sentiments.  Now, as it happens, I do believe her  trigger would benefit from adjustment, and if it were up to me, I'd have preferred if the resulting action had restrictions (maybe move only or action is at reduced stat or ), because it's not particularly difficult to pull off and it can really put you ahead in the actions attrition game.  

I don't know... I've been reading too many times the word "unfun" these days in the forum as an excuse to nerf things that are (or seem to be) in line... each one has his favourite styles to play with and against, and everyone should have a place. And I really don't understand why being obeyed is unfun, but getting wiped out of the board is super fun...

[LeperColony]

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

About these hints from the game: Colette may bury herself, stoning for Twist Ending, and she can even do it attacking one of his models using a low mask card is she really needs it.

Sure, but that's an even more expensive method, and maybe I misunderstood his report, but my impression was that Colette was just going all over the place.  

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

Putting a Voodoo dool in the coryphee relies in the arcanist player making the big mistake of leaving 1 of his coryphees at 12'' or less from Zoraida

12" covers a lot of the board, especially with idols where you can affect the placement of the strategy markers.  If the arcanist player's highest priority is to avoid a voodoo doll, area denial becomes much easier simply by using Zoraida as a null zone.

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

These doesn't points toward the Zoraida player making mistakes, but towards the Arcanist one knowing his crew inside out.

Somehow the idea that a specifically anti-Zoraida crew is strong against Zoraida doesn't surprise me, and I'm a little confused why you're talking as though it should be.  

If a crew's plan is to not interact, they also can't stop you.  This dynamic is not unique to Zoraida.  It's common to any match up where one side has a plan based on avoidance, and the counter to avoidance is careful target selection, area denial, running your own VPs, and strategy/scheme specific tactics like cheating for initiative to control idol placement.

It sounds like the Arcanist had a specific tactical plan, and the Zoraida player didn't adapt to the changed situation. 

Or, in other words, a game of Malifaux.  

It doesn't establish that Zoraida is suddenly balanced (or overpowered, or underpowered), and it doesn't mean that Zoraida just loses to these crew types.  

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

I don't know... I've been reading too many times the word "unfun" these days in the forum as an excuse to nerf things that are (or seem to be) in line... each one has his favourite styles to play with and against, and everyone should have a place. And I really don't understand why being obeyed is unfun, but getting wiped out of the board is super fun...

Of course getting rolled is never fun, regardless of the means.  And, certainly, the very concept of "fun" is subjective.  

However, we have decades of experience with control mechanics in gaming, and they are consistently cited as being unpleasant to a large part of the player base.  It's not really hard to consider why.  Their entire strategy is based around denying the opponent any chance to do anything. 

So, many people find it feels less interactive or less enjoyable.  Somehow if I have a 2/2 bear and you have a 2/2 spider, but you boost your spider by +1/+1 and it kills my bear, that feels more interactive than if you just counterspell my bear.  Is it in reality?  Maybe, maybe not.  

I've said several times control mechanics are legitimate, some people enjoy playing them, and they should exist.  But I fully understand why people don't enjoy facing them, and so I am not surprised that a control master with a high stat and very strong trigger is the source of complaints.

 

[LeperColony]

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

That's what I've trying to point out in this thread. People aren't winning tournaments because they are being lucky versus her, they win because they know how to play the match up; so she doesn't look OP according to all of that.

Sorry for the double post, but this is a very important point.  Knowing the match ups is important, and it's an element of player skill.  It's good that people win games when they understand the dynamic and can respond accordingly.

It could certainly be true that the strength of masters varies across different "skill tiers," however impossible such levels may be to define.  But it also would be helpful to really understand what we mean by "overpowered."  If a master requires a specific counter strategy, and would be rated favorably outside of it, is that master overpowered?  Underpowered?  Balanced?

It's tempting to say overpowered is simply the same as over performing.  A master that wins more than it loses is overpowered.  But that's not really how it works.  Not all masters are equally simple to play, the scheme and strategy pool is not exactly level for all masters, etc.  

I am suspicious of nerf calls, especially this early.  But a consensus does seem to be emerging that Zoraida is one of the better performing masters, and I wouldn't be surprised if her trigger had a lot to do with it.  Malifaux is fundamentally a game of resources, the chief of which is action points (though they technically don't exist anymore, they essentially do just everything costs either 0 or 1 AP).  Anything which gets you extra AP is going to have the potential to be very strong.  

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, LeperColony said:

Somehow the idea that a specifically anti-Zoraida crew is strong against Zoraida doesn't surprise me, and I'm a little confused why you're talking as though it should be.  

If a crew's plan is to not interact, they also can't stop you.  This dynamic is not unique to Zoraida.  It's common to any match up where one side has a plan based on avoidance, and the counter to avoidance is careful target selection, area denial, running your own VPs, and strategy/scheme specific tactics like cheating for initiative to control idol placement.

It sounds like the Arcanist had a specific tactical plan, and the Zoraida player didn't adapt to the changed situation. 

Or, in other words, a game of Malifaux.  

It doesn't establish that Zoraida is suddenly balanced (or overpowered, or underpowered), and it doesn't mean that Zoraida just loses to these crew types.

My point was more putting a real life example of a crew working well versus her. In the above posts some users pictured her like some kind of omnipotent god and the only chance to win is winning an uphill battle versus her and some elusive big frogs. With that line of thinking an strategy versus her based on just outscheme her wouldn't be perceived as viable, but it is.

And you are right, it's just an example and the player who adapt better to the game wins, this player did it without needing to go OOK; just peformers. Does that mean Zoraida can't beat Colette? No, but that Zoraida player will have to think about it and learn how to counter that... 

1 hour ago, LeperColony said:

Of course getting rolled is never fun, regardless of the means.  And, certainly, the very concept of "fun" is subjective.  

However, we have decades of experience with control mechanics in gaming, and they are consistently cited as being unpleasant to a large part of the player base.  It's not really hard to consider why.  Their entire strategy is based around denying the opponent any chance to do anything. 

So, many people find it feels less interactive or less enjoyable.  Somehow if I have a 2/2 bear and you have a 2/2 spider, but you boost your spider by +1/+1 and it kills my bear, that feels more interactive than if you just counterspell my bear.  Is it in reality?  Maybe, maybe not.  

I've said several times control mechanics are legitimate, some people enjoy playing them, and they should exist.  But I fully understand why people don't enjoy facing them, and so I am not surprised that a control master with a high stat and very strong trigger is the source of complaints.

it's understandable, but even if a player hate that mechanics, he should try to see that they are kind of a necessary evil. They add depth and counterplay to the game, force the players to adapt and add crews which feels totally different to play with and against. Remove every control master, every negative condition and the game after that wouldn't be that interesting as (and will bore people much sooner than) this one.

Maybe losing versus them is frustating at first, even more than being wiped off the board or being outschemed, but these styles can be beaten; and a player who try to understand how they work and how to beat them will find himself gutting/outscheming Zoraidas, Pandoras or Youkos pretty soon.

But the general trend is asking for nerf and for it to be a secondary and weak style that must lose for being that "annoying"... which isn't healthy for the game (reduce the competitive options) nor fair to the players who enjoy that style.

 

1 hour ago, LeperColony said:

Sorry for the double post, but this is a very important point.  Knowing the match ups is important, and it's an element of player skill.  It's good that people win games when they understand the dynamic and can respond accordingly.

It could certainly be true that the strength of masters varies across different "skill tiers," however impossible such levels may be to define.  But it also would be helpful to really understand what we mean by "overpowered."  If a master requires a specific counter strategy, and would be rated favorably outside of it, is that master overpowered?  Underpowered?  Balanced?

It's tempting to say overpowered is simply the same as over performing.  A master that wins more than it loses is overpowered.  But that's not really how it works.  Not all masters are equally simple to play, the scheme and strategy pool is not exactly level for all masters, etc.  

I am suspicious of nerf calls, especially this early.  But a consensus does seem to be emerging that Zoraida is one of the better performing masters, and I wouldn't be surprised if her trigger had a lot to do with it.  Malifaux is fundamentally a game of resources, the chief of which is action points (though they technically don't exist anymore, they essentially do just everything costs either 0 or 1 AP).  Anything which gets you extra AP is going to have the potential to be very strong.  

I think the problem with Zoraida is around here. Some masters are easy to play, other are harder to play, but others like Zoraida are hard to play against. Not because they cannot be countered or are OP, but because as they are using a non-standard approach to the game, it is harder to see what you have to do (or not to do) to not get punished. It's easy to see that ending a movement near of LadyJ isn't the sharpest choice, but it's harder to see that leaving your enforcer of range of obey and charge of her target of Vendetta wasn't a good idea or that you should had focused before attacking the silurid because it just butterfly jumped away after getting 2 damage or that you shoulnd't hoard that RJ. Add to that she is using the hated "control style" and her crew is elusive and the rivers of tears are guaranteed.

But it's important to be careful with the nerfs, specially with these hated masters, that consensus could be from players who don't understand/don't like her style; so the performance in big events should be heavily considered. Different crews have different tools, Zoraida may be annoying and disruptive with her obey, but other crews just kill every model in sight, have a ton of ways to interact/drop the markers, other give themselves fast, have a lot of movement shenanigans or have other perks that may be equally good or better than her obey... as with every other master in this game, she should be watched; but if she is performing at the level of other keywords, she shouldn't get any nerf; even if she dare to have those annoying obeys... but after this thread I seriously doubt she is that busted honestly.

[Sharp_GT]

I won't bother trying to quote everyone who posted above, because it would end up being a lot. I totally agree with you on this matter @Ogid, zoraida approches the game from a different angle, and I think a lot of players are having trouble wrapping their heads around how to counter that. As I've said before, once people understand that she won't seem so omnipotent.

I also like that you pointed out the construction of that arcanist collette list, other posters have framed that as a "specifiaclly custom crafted anti-zoraida list so of course she did well" but you're right, that was basically the collette base box with a soulstone miner thrown in. Also, everyone needs to undersatand that this is 3e now: we know the master we're playing against ahead of time, so EVERY list can be custom crafted to foil our opponents choice.

@LeperColony you made a great comparison to magic the gathering that I think is very valid in this dicussion: as a MTG player, judge, and event coordinator I've heard time and again from newer or less skilled players about how "un-fun" control strategies are. I've listened to so many players gripe about how a strategy designed to be as un-interactive as possible is less "fun". But 25years into that games existance controll and combo strategies are still consistantly played at every level, and there is a lot of players (generally more experienced and higher skilled players) who really find that style of play to be the most fun. I personally love the subtle mind games and chess-like planning ahead and counterplay that is nessissary to play and play against that type of strategy effectively. Also side note: zoraida's bonus action is word for word the MTG card wheel of fortune

Basically, IMO, everyone is griping about zoraida being able to play necropotence while stubbornly refusing to admit that their kird apes suck.

[Erik1978]

Quote

 we know the master we're playing against ahead of time, so EVERY list can be custom crafted to foil our opponents choice.

We know the enemy LEADER we're playing against, quite a big difference in my opinion... there might be a Zoraida lurking in the Shadows, or a Seamus teleporting around to help McMourning etc. Would you take anything to counter Zoraida if your opponent announces Dreamer as the leader?

[Flippin' Wyrd Matt]

So I think zoraider is very good, my initial reaction is that she was crazy good. But I have played a few games against her now and speaking from meta that has banned dual masters because it has not been play tested enough for tournament play (in my humble opinion) she can be worked around if you k ow what she can do.

For me we run the risk of going to hard on a fix with her if we think she is completely broken. Where as actually I feel that all she needs is to not be able to  ast through swampfeinds and that will go a long way to helping her out or if u feel it needs more a obey action should not allow a interact action when targeting enemy models. 

Me and @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie have been discussing this and feel this is all it would take to level her but we have to be careful to not go to far out of rage quitting and propaganda. 

She is good but it's all new and every master will take some learning to beat is what I have found. 

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

We know the enemy LEADER we're playing against, quite a big difference in my opinion... there might be a Zoraida lurking in the Shadows, or a Seamus teleporting around to help McMourning etc. Would you take anything to counter Zoraida if your opponent announces Dreamer as the leader?

Well, both players have that option... there are other very good (or better than her) double masters out of there. McCabe have his artifacts, that give fast and have quite good abilities, Kirai as a second master has her 2 summonable minions plus Ikiryo for 3 extra summonable models, Guild also use a lot of very nasty double masters... the players pick the schemes after knowing the other player's crew, so they can still adapt. If you are in reckoning and are versus Guild for example, you shouldn't be surprised to get double master + rider in a cutthroat enviroment like a tournament (but if you bring that kind of stuff to your newbie night, then you are just a jerk ).

The best part of Zoraida in swampfiend is the big area she can control thanks to her nodes (and most of those nodes being stealthed and elusive models), in a double master setting she has to be too close to deny anything safely, even without bringing anti-Zoraida stuff she can be dealt with. The doll is still a nice trick, but not every keyword have models as efficient as a wisp to attack the doll (or you have to commit 5 extra SS to hire a wisp)

It's true she could obey ludicrous beaters... but for those 16 points other crews may field 2 Rougarous or 2 Sabertooths. Being able to funnel APs through one or 2 good beaters may be quite good, but it also put a big target in those beater's head; if they get controled, lured, buried or outright killed, that crew will suffer a lot and they can't spread efficiently if all of his power is tied to Zoraida following 1 or 2 models.

3 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Matt said:

not be able to  ast through swampfeinds

If Wyrd changes her, I hope they won't modify that because it will gut all the synergy with her keyword; transforming her into Seamus 2.0... changing the ability to only work when she is the leader could be acceptable, but removing it would be a mistake imo.

[Mut]

So now that this debate has raged, I'd be interested to see people's response to this question: Given you're facing Bayou Zoraida in a 50 SS game, what master do you run, and what's your crew look like? Assume Cursed Idols is the strat.