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3 minutes ago, Lechuzo_Loco said:

I am aware that the models can't really be directly compared. But I think that costs should be comparable in some way. And I think there should be some attractiveness to keyword models. Playing two Diesel Swarms instead of Blessed and the Ice Golem just isn't fun ūüôā .

Comparing models within the same faction or same hiring pool is fine. Comparing models in different factions with exactly 0 ability to hire both of them isn't.

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3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Comparing models within the same faction or same hiring pool is fine. Comparing models in different factions with exactly 0 ability to hire both of them isn't.

Why can't you compare what models add to a crew in relation to their costs? I don't get it. Of course different factions and keywords have different strengths and weaknesses and some abilities might be "more expensive" for some factions than others, but still it has to be possible to make a comparison among factions (Not saying you can assign values to abilities and add them up to get a price). Otherwise we could just value the mechanical rider at 9SS and say "well, that's just an Arcanist thing", you can't compare it to other riders. How else would you estimate whether a model is over or underpriced?

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Because you have to look for the synergies in the keyword and faction while building a crew- who and what can give to other models, Blessed December in very easy way in first turn in Marcus crew may gain armor +1 andHunker Down (if not moved shielded +2, place is not move? I don't remeber), Disguised and Stealth, or Flight with +1mv and butterfly jump. In that case i wouldn't bet on First Mate even cracked and empty soulstone.

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4 minutes ago, FrostHunter said:

armor +1 andHunker Down (if not moved shielded +2, place is not move? I don't remeber)

Rules pdf page 14, "Moving":

Quote

Any time something changes location or is affected by a movement effect, it is considered to have moved (even if it moved 0").

 

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On 9/15/2019 at 3:44 AM, dannydb said:

Shenlong has to much counter play...

Late to the party on this thread but figured I would add Mah Tucket to this. She has an awful lot of counter play based around Scamper and the Pit Traps. Add in the Bushwhacker's Stealth and it makes a crew that is extremely difficult to actually engage. Personally I think Stealth needs to be toned down to provide a :-flipflip to attacks from over 6" instead of a carte blanche can not target (which is insanely good and extremely annoying to play against). Pit traps should also probably be downsized to 30mm instead of 50mm, particularly given the stock crew can place 4 for free after Deployment which greatly hinders a lot of crews. Another option could be to have them placed before Deployment instead of after. I might also add a stipulation that the Pit Trap markers can not be placed within 1" of an opponents model. The combination of damage and Injured from these coupled with the ease and number that can be generated makes them an overly potent tool in a crew that already has a lot of potency.

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In that case whole Tricksy feel quite powerful, Rooster Riders are nightmare for me (played against them with Lynch and Youko), Big Brain Brian too. But it's my bad luck and my nemesis opponent.

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19 minutes ago, FrostHunter said:

Because you have to look for the synergies in the keyword and faction while building a crew- who and what can give to other models, Blessed December in very easy way in first turn in Marcus crew may gain armor +1 andHunker Down (if not moved shielded +2, place is not move? I don't remeber), Disguised and Stealth, or Flight with +1mv and butterfly jump. In that case i wouldn't bet on First Mate even cracked and empty soulstone.

That's pretty much what I said with "Why can't you compare what models add to a crew in relation to their costs?"

Anyways, what you are saying is, don't play Blessed of December in the December keyword, because he's overpriced for what he could do in the Beast keyword? Then please rename to "Blessed of Beast" and adjust keyword ūüôā ūüôā (joking). On the other hand one could argue, in the beast keyword, you invest additional limited resources to improve the model. Same as you can attach an upgrade to the Mate so it can't be charged and has +1Sz.

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46 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

Late to the party on this thread but figured I would add Mah Tucket to this. She has an awful lot of counter play based around Scamper and the Pit Traps. Add in the Bushwhacker's Stealth and it makes a crew that is extremely difficult to actually engage. Personally I think Stealth needs to be toned down to provide a :-flipflip to attacks from over 6" instead of a carte blanche can not target (which is insanely good and extremely annoying to play against). Pit traps should also probably be downsized to 30mm instead of 50mm, particularly given the stock crew can place 4 for free after Deployment which greatly hinders a lot of crews. Another option could be to have them placed before Deployment instead of after. I might also add a stipulation that the Pit Trap markers can not be placed within 1" of an opponents model. The combination of damage and Injured from these coupled with the ease and number that can be generated makes them an overly potent tool in a crew that already has a lot of potency.

Those traps are destructible, and there are models across all factions that can take care of more than one them in a single action (Blow it to hell). Also, they don't come for free. A Tricksy crew will start with 1-4, since there are only 4 models that can put them (Mah herself and 3 Bushwhackers). "The stock crew can place for free"? The maximum generated each turn is 4, and the Tricksy player will need to have 3 Bushwhackers and 6-7-7-7. Also, most miniatures from the crew are not even immune to them, so another reason why you'll never see that number appearing every turn.

Have you ever played against Kaeris? Burning +1 and Injured +1 from the Pyre markers, and those can't be destroyed by anyone.

It really looks like you had a bad experience playing against Mah, but what you're saying doesn't make sense.

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1 hour ago, Lechuzo_Loco said:



Anyways, what you are saying is, don't play Blessed of December in the December keyword, because he's overpriced for what he could do in the Beast keyword?

Sorry, i didn't wanted to sound like that, on paper for me Blessed look as quite nice mobile and needed in December scheme runner and killer of lone scheme runners. Great leap on 6+, deadly pursuit, cover from ice pillars (df7! against shooting unless ignoring cover) and healing from Silent Ones, but i have to admit i've never played in M3E against him. And i've played against First Mate (in Tricksy crew) and he is totally bonker.

 

56 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Have you ever played against Kaeris? Burning +1 and Injured +1 from the Pyre markers, and those can't be destroyed by anyone.

Hmmmm i've tought that Molly or Lotus Eater can destroy them, also Mancha Roja, Wrastlers, Poltergeist. There was somewhere topic about all models that can remove any markers from the game if my mind doesn't trick me.

I've found it! Well, this is about removing destructible markers, but some like above can do it with any marker (sometimes with restrictions).

 

I've played once against Kaeris using Honeypot, those pyre markers are brutal, but the game was quite fun. Also bless the tanuki.

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19 minutes ago, FrostHunter said:

Hmmmm i've tought that Molly or Lotus Eater can destroy them, also Mancha Roja, Wrastlers, Poltergeist. There was somewhere topic about all models that can remove any markers from the game if my mind doesn't trick me.

I've found it! Well, this is about removing destructible markers, but some like above can do it with any marker (sometimes with restrictions).

 

I've played once against Kaeris using Honeypot, those pyre markers are brutal, but the game was quite fun. Also bless the tanuki.

Also the Lucky Emissary :P The point that I tried to make is that you can't destroy them with a general action that any miniature can take, since they're not destructible.

 

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3 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I would strenuously disagree with that philosophy. If that is true there would be absolutely no way to play a fair game except against models from the same faction.

The philosophy is fairly valid in that a good model for 1 faction might be poor in another faction.

It doesn't stop you making a balanced game even if you can't directly compare models, because you can directly compare crews. 

Looking at M2, Arcanists had a huge amount of armour, and so a model with armour in that faction was not as good as it would have been in a different faction. Guild had a lot of guns, so a model for them that was a rare pick, would be a strong consideration in ressers or neverborn if they could hire it. 

So the comparison of blessed vs first mate can be interesting, but I found when I use the first mate in infamous crews, a lot of his good stuff is never used because people just don't drop scheme markers against them. where as December really need a fast moving model to be a very different threat to the rest of the crew. 

So whilst a December player might prefer to hire the first mate, they can't and the blessed is a good enough model for what they want/need. Whilst infamous wouldn't be interested in the blessed because they already have a very mobile crew, so the value of a mobile model is much lower for them. 

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13 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I would strenuously disagree with that philosophy. If that is true there would be absolutely no way to play a fair game except against models from the same faction.

A fair game isn't just various models sgsinst each other 1v1 in a void, so why would you compare models that have absolutely no way to be in the same crew as if they're in a void.

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There is no 2 absolute answers here, the models aren't either not comparable at all or totally comparable and a 9SS model for a faction shouldn't be in a totally diferent power level than a 9SS of other faction. Direct comparisons can be made and should be close, but the conclusions drawn out of those should be made with caution.

A player may perfectly compare Necropunk, Katashiro, Wind gamin and Wandering Monk in the scheme runner role for example; but it cannot conclude one of them is broken out of just that comparison, maybe that faction has a better runner but crapier beaters.

In this case, even comparing models with different prices is clear the First mate is in a different tier than the blessed (aka, the first mate is objectively a better model); that doesn't mean the first mate is broken and need a nerf or the blessed needs buffs, those needs to be adressed within the faction depending on how these are performing in their respectives hiring pools.

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21 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Those traps are destructible, and there are models across all factions that can take care of more than one them in a single action (Blow it to hell). Also, they don't come for free. A Tricksy crew will start with 1-4, since there are only 4 models that can put them (Mah herself and 3 Bushwhackers). "The stock crew can place for free"? The maximum generated each turn is 4, and the Tricksy player will need to have 3 Bushwhackers and 6-7-7-7. Also, most miniatures from the crew are not even immune to them, so another reason why you'll never see that number appearing every turn.

Have you ever played against Kaeris? Burning +1 and Injured +1 from the Pyre markers, and those can't be destroyed by anyone.

It really looks like you had a bad experience playing against Mah, but what you're saying doesn't make sense.

First, the existence of other similar Abilities, Actions, or Interactions on other models that are seen as more potent is not an argument for not addressing anything. Truthfully most of these terrain markers should probably be looked at given the impact they can have on many boards on the high end of the terrain density. Secondly, trivializing other players experiences is a long tradition during these discussions on this forum. It wont change anything. The down grading of posts is fun though.

With that said...

Yes the traps are destructible but it costs 1 AP from one of your models to do (this is potent enough). And while yes there are models that can get rid of more than one they aren't in every Keyword and they have an additional cost to take OoK that isn't always negated by the additional cost. Placing 4 Pit Traps after Deployment of your opponents models is hugely powerful given they can be placed as close as 3" outside the opponents Deployment Zone. Each is almost 2" of space, placing them an inch apart means that you can cover about 12" of ground and still threaten any base that has to move thru them (30mm base is more than an inch) dictating a lot of your opponents first turn and slowing many crews substantially (-AP if you destroy them or movement penalty if you move thru or around them). The value required to successfully cast Create Trap is the average value of the deck and also accomplished via a :ToS-Fast: action on models that don't have a competing one on the card (meaning there really isn't an opportunity cost to using it and failing). While most of the models available to Mah may not be Immune to the Traps, the majority of the stock crew is (only Trixiebelle and The Little Lass are not). Lets also not act like these wont be used to make Test Subjects incredibly potent for their very minimal cost (3 Bushwhackers and 3 Test Subjects is only 30 SS, leaving plenty to hire a Big Brain Brin and other goodies to augment the Crew and notice there is no upper limit to the benefit Test Subjects can receive from Failed Experiment like other models in faction possess). As far as never seeing that many of them, well our Mah player has never struggled in a game to produce 12 or more Pit Traps over the duration and has yet to be hampered by them himself. Lastly, hiring the Bushwhackers isn't really a deterrent for most Mah Tucket lists, they are a very good model for a very nice cost. Perhaps a bit myopic but I fail to recall seeing a Mah list posted on the forum that doesn't hire at least 2 in the crew.

As always these are my opinions on an item that may need to be looked at for possible errata and no more or less valid than anyone else's. If your experiences have differed then great, but that doesn't make mine any less valid. But since the tenor of this thread seems to have reached its inevitable nadir, I will depart since I have already laid out the case and let the developers make the final decisions.

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56 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

First, the existence of other similar Abilities, Actions, or Interactions on other models that are seen as more potent is not an argument for not addressing anything. Truthfully most of these terrain markers should probably be looked at given the impact they can have on many boards on the high end of the terrain density. Secondly, trivializing other players experiences is a long tradition during these discussions on this forum. It wont change anything. The down grading of posts is fun though.

My point is that there are similar abilities that are more powerful and don't seem to be a problem, so my intention was to put it into perspective. Of course, having a more powerful ability doesn't mean that other abilities can't be too powerful.  I respectfully disagree with your opinion, and we're having a debate, I'm not "downgrading" your opinion :)

With that said...

Yes the traps are destructible but it costs 1 AP from one of your models to do (this is potent enough).

If using 1 AP frees the path for your models to move, it's an advantage for you, not a disadvantage. It's a well invested AP. Most of the crews can dispose 1 AP every turn from a low cost model (or an insignificant one) to remove at least 1 trap each turn.

And while yes there are models that can get rid of more than one they aren't in every Keyword and they have an additional cost to take OoK that isn't always negated by the additional cost.

That's why you should "counterpick" with OOK models (or check the versatile ones), to get something that you don't have in keyword. That's the whole purpose of it. I think that every faction has at least 1 model worth of pick OOK to deny the "pit trap" strategy while bringing something else to the table. If you know that you're going to play against a master that is condition based and you don't bring some anti-condition miniatures, then it will feel like its mechanics are over the top.

Placing 4 Pit Traps after Deployment of your opponents models is hugely powerful given they can be placed as close as 3" outside the opponents Deployment Zone. Each is almost 2" of space, placing them an inch apart means that you can cover about 12" of ground and still threaten any base that has to move thru them (30mm base is more than an inch) dictating a lot of your opponents first turn and slowing many crews substantially (-AP if you destroy them or movement penalty if you move thru or around them).

There isn't any movement penalty if you move through them.

The value required to successfully cast Create Trap is the average value of the deck and also accomplished via a :ToS-Fast: action on models that don't have a competing one on the card (meaning there really isn't an opportunity cost to using it and failing).

So, 50% of the cards in the deck are not good enough to drop the trap. That's an important number.

While most of the models available to Mah may not be Immune to the Traps, the majority of the stock crew is (only Trixiebelle and The Little Lass are not). Lets also not act like these wont be used to make Test Subjects incredibly potent for their very minimal cost (3 Bushwhackers and 3 Test Subjects is only 30 SS, leaving plenty to hire a Big Brain Brin and other goodies to augment the Crew and notice there is no upper limit to the benefit Test Subjects can receive from Failed Experiment like other models in faction possess).

I don't know what you mean by "stock crew". Regarding the test subjects, you have plenty of ways around that trick, starting by just removing the traps or attacking them at the beginning of the turn.

As far as never seeing that many of them, well our Mah player has never struggled in a game to produce 12 or more Pit Traps over the duration and has yet to be hampered by them himself.
That looks like a reasonable number to me, if he brings the 4 models that can create them and he/she manages to keep then alive.

Lastly, hiring the Bushwhackers isn't really a deterrent for most Mah Tucket lists, they are a very good model for a very nice cost. Perhaps a bit myopic but I fail to recall seeing a Mah list posted on the forum that doesn't hire at least 2 in the crew.

There are plenty of lists in the Bayou subforum that only hire 1 and actually go for 2-3 Roster Riders, feel free to check.

As always these are my opinions on an item that may need to be looked at for possible errata and no more or less valid than anyone else's. If your experiences have differed then great, but that doesn't make mine any less valid. But since the tenor of this thread seems to have reached its inevitable nadir, I will depart since I have already laid out the case and let the developers make the final decisions.

In addition, there are models that can just directly ignore the traps, like those that fly, are incorporeal or unaffected by hazardous terrain.

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9 hours ago, ShinChan said:

In addition, there are models that can just directly ignore the traps, like those that fly, are incorporeal or unaffected by hazardous terrain.

Though I said I wouldn't...here I am.

While yes I concede there are models that can ignore them, these 3 abilities are far from common and not available to all keywords or even factions (Condition removal is far more common than any of these even without considering that all models can use Assist for Burning, Distraction, and Injured).

Also, Pit Traps are "50mm, Destructible, Severe, Hazardous (Damage 1 and Injured +1)". The Severe trait does affect "non-place movement effects". Again there isn't an opportunity cost to the Mah player for using the :ToS-Fast: Action Create Traps. It is successful 50% of the time with out cheating and doesn't detract from anything else the model wants to do (there are no competing :ToS-Fast: actions on their cards so they are truly a "free" action for the model). It is really all benefit for the Mah player. Having 12 of them on the board can affect over half a square foot of a 9 square foot table if placed well (and this is before considering other terrain on the board). For comparison, it would take 20-ish Ice Pillars to have a similar impact on the board.

The "Stock Crew" is the crew that comes in the box (Mah Tucket, Little Lass, Trixiebelle, and 3 Bushwhackers). Not all players (particularly new players) will have all the options available to them to play the counter pick game (having fairly balanced crew boxes should be a priority since this is how most new players judge the game and decide whether they will buy in deeper). Most of the lists I have seen for Mah have a core built around Big Brain Brin (so damn good), 2 Bushwhackers (the combination of From the Shadows and Stealth is extremely potent for objective running while the long range, cover ignoring, solid damage producing Clockwork Rifle is perfect for 1st turn harassment), and 2 Rooster Riders (another solid producer for the crew but more expensive and less impactful on turn 1 than the Bushwhackers). This leaves 16 SS to hire what ever other goodies you want. Additionally, hiring OoK incurs an additional cost for the crew (unless Versatile) and in many crews can limit the potency of the Key Word primary Ability. Lastly, not all crews can afford to hire more than one OoK or versatile models in their crew (sure there are exceptions but they are exceptions not the rule).

We are unlikely to sway each other to the others position, but if nothing else, it should give the developers a solid foundation for them to consider either way.

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32 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

Not all players (particularly new players) will have all the options available to them to play the counter pick game (having fairly balanced crew boxes should be a priority since this is how most new players judge the game and decide whether they will buy in deeper).

I think this is the key issue. It's not really a balance issue, it is an accessibility issue. Players with half a faction are obviously far more favoured than people who only own part of a faction.

EDIT: There was a discussion on whether Malifaux has a 'pay-to-win' problem a while back, you could look it up. Most people were of the view that Malifaux is 'pay-to-play', but that cost is pretty high.

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Have we talked about leap yet?

Models with leap have a very high tendency to be very powerful (Archie, Manos, First Mate, Silurids, necropunks, etc).

Does Leap need a change to be "completely within 6" rather than "within 6"?

I believe many place effects were changed before launch to be completely within (such as flight), but leap is an outlier in this regard.

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It's not really a leap problem; mobility is very powerful in this kind of games but it's not gamebreaking per se.

Also, I think that, outside of deployments and Flight, there is no "completely within" effects and that was a conscious design choice; I don't think they want to change that. The flight one is the only exception because it's trying to mimic a movement action.

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