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Issues for possible Errata


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Why not something like "Upping the Ante: Once per Activation. After this model has flipped a card, it may choose any number of cards its controller has removed from the game to place on the top of the discard pile. These cards are no longer considered removed from the game. For each card discarded, the model increases the effective value of the flipped card by 1."
This way, there's still actual luck involved in what the Dreamer is doing: If Dreamer top-decks a 3 to my 12, he'd have to blow nine exiled cards to win the duel. It's still, you know, a gamble, but if he flips a 7 to my 8, he can just toss a card back into the game and win the duel. There's a cost to be paid though, since he'd be back to exiling cards exclusively because they're bad, and he's diluting his deck to win these gambles. I still don't get too much say in what happens, but it actually costs him something, and there's still a decent chance he just flips bad instead of surefire betting on a 13.

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@Ogid largely because it just feels bad (see this thread). It FEELS like there is no counterplay.

For those struggling with stitched together: if you attack them, they often use the high cards they have stored away to defend, so then they cant gamble. You don't have to kill them, just take away the high cards.

If they're stocking up lots of severes, their deck is temporarily weakened. Force some duels. Especially if they have had to shuffle once without the severes in it.

On a similar note, count how many severe cards are in their discard pile as you go (or get a rough idea). Also always know which jokers are in their discard pile. They send a massive signal about the quality of their remaining deck by revealing so many cards.

Also even at their current power level, I rarely bother hiring more than one Stitched. They are not that powerful (so don't deserve a nerf IMO). They just feel bad to play against (so possibly should have been changed in beta, but we are past that now).

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Haha, there should be a good dreamer player in your meta XD. @Kharnage

It might feel bad, but it's not that bad; I explained why above. If the dreamer is removing high cards out of a dream with low cards, he is shooting himself in the foot; but even if Lucid dreams is used to set up strong gambles. The more styches, the less amount of good cards you can get. 1 king out of 15 cards... seems likely, 3? Not that much. If you have 3 stiched but only secured 2 high cards... what is that other stiched doing that turn? And the damage is a flip, take hard to wound and he can't cheat the flip to get 5 damage, get some armor and henchmans and tank it, they cannot do more than 1 safe gamble so take some healing and heal the damage; the range is not that long, make them get out of position to use the ability... if a king is loaded then it's a quite "safe" damage, but it can be played around.

And the things I mentioned above has rolls, but if a player dive with his attuned sabertooth for example, that has much higher threat range and damage potential than an stiched; you may feel that you can defend; and even if you defend once; the other player lost nothing but an action and has another attack (and a potential onslaught trigger waiting to make more damage than that single gamble).

Ah ok; I get you know @Maniacal_cackle.

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1 minute ago, Ogid said:

Haha, there should be a good dreamer player in your meta XD. @Kharnage

 

There is. I play vassal, and there are world class dreamer players, and they're really damn annoying to play against. That is to say, poignantly unfun. And I don't care if you win exactly 50% of your games if the entire experience is straight up infuriating. If Gamble your Life read "Kick the opposing player until you get tired. Flip a coin; if heads, you win the game, if tails, you lose." I'd hope we'd rework it, regardless of what it did to win rates. And I know for a fact that Dreamer players are not winning exactly 50% of their games, because Dreamer and Zoraida are carrying the Neverborn into meta relevance. 

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22 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

There is. I play vassal, and there are world class dreamer players, and they're really damn annoying to play against. That is to say, poignantly unfun. And I don't care if you win exactly 50% of your games if the entire experience is straight up infuriating. If Gamble your Life read "Kick the opposing player until you get tired. Flip a coin; if heads, you win the game, if tails, you lose." I'd hope we'd rework it, regardless of what it did to win rates. And I know for a fact that Dreamer players are not winning exactly 50% of their games, because Dreamer and Zoraida are carrying the Neverborn into meta relevance. 

I mean, isn't that arguably the reason why Pandora got a major revisit for M3E, and a good number of changes were made wholesale (removal of Paralyzed and mitigation of activation control)?

Whether something is winning or losing is definitely someting that needs to be factored.

But just as important, is how fun the game is, regardless of the winning/losing. Paralyzed was removed as much as it affected win chances, as because it was relatively boring to be on the receiving end of, especially if things are outside your control for the most part.

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8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think something being unfun is a fantastic reason to change something in beta.

Once you've launched, people start buying crews on the understanding that these are their stats. The bar for errata is much higher than the bar for beta changes.

Unfun is very hard to quantify. what is unfun for me might be amazingly popular for everyone else that plays. But I do agree that the bar for errata is much higher now its published.

10 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Because a Stitched pulling a 13 from exile to basically auto win the "duel", followed by cheating severe for damage assuming he didn't top deck the straight flip, is inevitable. You basically watch the Dreamer player masturbate until he has what he needs, no input required from you, and then deals 5 damage. Other than flipping a not-red-joker, the game "we're" playing is pretty one sided. Everything you just mentioned, has a decently sizeable opportunity for failure. There's an actual Df vs Attack value flip that's cheatable for everything else you just mentioned. They can flip low, you could flip high enough that they might not have that card in hand, etc. Dreamer on the other hand, can cycle with a single stitched, 3 daydreams, and his totem, 15 cards a turn, looking for a single king. As far as the opposing player is concerned, we're hoping for RJs, which having less than a 2% chance of being able to stop something isn't hope at all. It's freaking frustrating. 

Its about as inevitable as a lot of other things in the game. It might feel slightly more inevitable, but there are many many crews that can set up about as inevitable an outcome.

Attacking with a stat 6 model with focus whilst you hold that 13 in your hand is almost as inevitable in almost all cases , and doesn't always require as much of an effort to set up, and doesn't require any risk to your model. I know 2% isn't a great chance of flipping the red joker, but that is a 2% chance that all the work they put into making this action work was not only wasted, but it actively damaged them and potentially killed the stitched  if it was already hurt. That's not a risk that most models have to consider when they make their attack.

I agree that the stitched "feels" worse and more out of your control.  That doesn't mean it is, but the feeling that you can't do anything because it has all been set up by the player before hand is not one that many people enjoy.  (There aren't many things you can do, but hiding, moving out of range or killing the stitched are all possible options to prevent it after you have seen that 13 removed from the game).

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I think the issue is stiched is that they ignore so much of the ways you have of protecting your self. Not being an attack means it ignores terrorfying, concilement, incorporeal, serene encounterance and manipulative 

 

All stuff certain models rely on to keep them safe. That's my main issue with them. They just skip so much important stuff in the game 

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40 minutes ago, marke83 said:

I'm not sure why we're even having this debate..

Errata should fix the obvious outliers, and the fix should be done sooner than later. Saying stuff like "model x can be played around" doesn't mean an errata isn't in order. 

Furthermore, I fail to understand why "more data" is somehow needed. If the call to nerf, say, Stiched turns out to be wrong, the situation isn't much worse than it is now.  There is just an undertuned  model in the game - whooptydoo, who cares? On the other hand, if they are not nerfed, they will continue to frustrate players for months to come. 

Any game should nerf their op stuff  sooner than later. Nothing says they can't be readjusted again later.

I agree, but one thing is nerfing OP stuff and other very different is nerfing every mechanic different to "shoot/slice you with my stat 7:+flip" because it's "unfun" (aka, it forces me to adapt my game). If it were for some players, every master and mechanic relying in something different than that would be erased/nerfed to uselessness. And then we could be back to the good Perdita vs Viktorias action... which by the way are both awesome, but there is life outside of shooting and slicing things.

I guess the NVB players who play puppets/nightmare would care about one of their models performing ok getting nerfed, specially while there are stuff like Archie or riders in every list of some factions, just because an outcry of players who don't understand/aren't willing to adapt the playstyle. Is that how it works? Should I start crying out loud for every thing I dislike to get it nerfed even if it's not broken?

If it's broken, then sure, nerf bat it until it's ok again; but if it's "unfun", then learn about it and his counters... it will become less "unfun".

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1 hour ago, marke83 said:

If the call to nerf, say, Stiched turns out to be wrong, the situation isn't much worse than it is now.  There is just an undertuned  model in the game - whooptydoo, who cares? On the other hand, if they are not nerfed, they will continue to frustrate players for months to come. 

Well, for example I just bought a Dreamer crew after launch.

If stitched together are nerfed into the ground, the crew has very poor options for summoning when damage is needed. The whole viability of the keyword could shift.

So do you also adjust other Nightmare models? Or do you just say if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

A few players being frustrated about a model is going to be a lot less frustration than players buying a crew, seeing it nerfed, buying a different crew, and seeing it nerfed again.

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If I was like "You know guys it'd be really good if Dreamer had 6 cost summonable minions that have Inhuman Physiology, Ruthless, and stat 6 greatswords", that would obviously be way too strong for their cost, and yet would still be way more interactive than what they have right now. The fact that the mumbo jumbo of Lucid Dreams is what fuels this doesn't make tactical action 3/4/5 damage any less BS. 
 

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Attacking with a stat 6 model with focus whilst you hold that 13 in your hand is almost as inevitable in almost all cases , and doesn't always require as much of an effort to set up, and doesn't require any risk to your model. I know 2% isn't a great chance of flipping the red joker, but that is a 2% chance that all the work they put into making this action work was not only wasted, but it actively damaged them and potentially killed the stitched  if it was already hurt. That's not a risk that most models have to consider when they make their attack.

 

The Stitched will take 2-3 damage, tops, if it fails, which is crazy unlikely, because even with my decently conservative 5 Lucid Dreamers Scenario, the Stitched basically has a :+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flip:+flipto hit, vs a single top-decked-only card, assuming I'm only using Turn 1's Lucid Dreaming. No Protected, no Butterfly Jump, no A LOT of things. Trying to stuff everything that Stitched get around into an attack action would itself take up most of the back of the Stitched's card. And even with your Stat 6 model with focus and a 13 in hand, you had to draw that 13. Most players have at a maximum, 8 cards to draw to make that happen. Stitched get waaaaay more than that, and it doesn't even diminish your actual cheating power when you're done. The only opportunity cost they lost out on, was fueling more gambles, and not taking a lower card on the particular 3 cards that you took the 13 from. 

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  • 2 months later...

We played All Out Brawl yesterday (GG0) and identified 2 possible Erratas.

Firstly, it appears that currently a model scores VP if it damages itself: "At the end of a model's Activation, its 
controller gains 1 VP for each model 
damaged during that Activation."

Second, Redeployment (after your Leader is killed) only says "within 6" whereas most deployments specify "completely within"

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2 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

We played All Out Brawl yesterday (GG0) and identified 2 possible Erratas.

Firstly, it appears that currently a model scores VP if it damages itself: "At the end of a model's Activation, its 
controller gains 1 VP for each model 
damaged during that Activation."

Second, Redeployment (after your Leader is killed) only says "within 6" whereas most deployments specify "completely within"

Speaking of all out brawl, maybe banning models immune to slow (or saying models gain slow even if immune to it). Archie is nuts.

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1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

We played All Out Brawl yesterday (GG0) and identified 2 possible Erratas.

Firstly, it appears that currently a model scores VP if it damages itself: "At the end of a model's Activation, its 
controller gains 1 VP for each model 
damaged during that Activation."

Yeah.  I'm expecting a lot of people to play it as 'for each enemy model damage'.  (Since there are no friends in a brawl.  😎)

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

Second, Redeployment (after your Leader is killed) only says "within 6" whereas most deployments specify "completely within"

That part's traditional for Enforcer Brawl.  🤷‍♀️

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Speaking of all out brawl, maybe banning models immune to slow (or saying models gain slow even if immune to it). Archie is nuts.

Honestly, if models being immune to Slow is a problem, you'd be better just making no one gain Slow.

I assume the bit about Slow was trying to eliminate the revenge-fest that sometimes happened during Enforcer Brawls.  But, again, tradition.  🤷‍♀️

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One thing I did like about the even damaging yourself is it opened up interesting play sometimes.

You'd get people trying to hit the Black Blood model to splash themselves, so had to position perfectly to blast enemies and hit themselves with black blood splash. But it did make it a bit funky that some models could voluntarily damage themselves. Didn't seem gamebreaking, but was pretty comical.

Yeah, removing slow might be best overall. plus then it allows a wider variety of models (as is, you almost need a leap-esque model just to get back into the fray the turn you come back).

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46 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing I did like about the even damaging yourself is it opened up interesting play sometimes.

You'd get people trying to hit the Black Blood model to splash themselves, so had to position perfectly to blast enemies and hit themselves with black blood splash. But it did make it a bit funky that some models could voluntarily damage themselves. Didn't seem gamebreaking, but was pretty comical.

Yeah, removing slow might be best overall. plus then it allows a wider variety of models (as is, you almost need a leap-esque model just to get back into the fray the turn you come back).

I'm also real surprised that there is no incentive to picking lower cost models? No bonus VP or rules or anything. And now you can play minions, but why would you? What minion except for Mature Nephilim, would stand a chance against Archie? I think there should be a rule that, after revealing leaders, every person can add 1 upgrade that couls be attached to that model, the combined cost of which does not exceed the highest cost leader. So if the most expensive model is 10, 8ss models and under get a 2 cost upgrade, and 9ss models get a 1 cost upgrade.

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  • 2 weeks later...

My propsals: (Playing 10t and Arcanists myself)

- Soulstone miner, as mentioned before, being insignificant during the turn they unburied would be a good fix, otherwise they just score multiple schemes without any possibility to interfere.

- Shenlong's Fermented River Style needs some nerf. Possible fix would be to add a "unless explicitly unwanted" to Serene Countenance, Manipulative and/or Hard to Wound, so the opponent can opt out to giving you additional plus flips.

- Shenlong's Wandering River Style needs a TN on it's action.

- Steam Arachnid Swarms could loose the built in onslaught trigger and would still be extremely strong.

- Big Brain Brin, played properly, is just insanely strong, pretty impossible to kill, brings arcane reservoir, condition removal, pseudo-obey, and he rigs the deck in a way no other model can. At least make "Calculate the Possibilities" once per Turn, so it can't be done multiple times and triggered again by obey's.

- Zoraida's obey's built in mask should be "if this model is the crew's leader, add one mask to this action's final duel total", so the double obey only works as leader. (Or just make the trigger leader only)

Greetings from the crazy owl 🙂

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3 hours ago, Lechuzo_Loco said:

- Shenlong's Fermented River Style needs some nerf. Possible fix would be to add a "unless explicitly unwanted" to Serene Countenance, Manipulative and/or Hard to Wound, so the opponent can opt out to giving you additional plus flips.

That's going to nerf Moon Shinobi's into the ground. 

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