Pandora - Misery

[Lamellarlucy]

Can the "Misery" rule present on the "Woe" keyword's models affect a single enemy model more than once off of a single stunned condition? The ability appears to be an Aura, and on page 30 of the rulebook it states that a multiple auras with the same name do not stack but i have seen many people saying that the simultaneous damage from multiple "Misery" triggers is a core component of the "Woe" keyword. How does this work?

Example.

An enemy model is within ''Misery'' range of Pandora, Candy, and a Sorrow. Pandora afflicts the model with the Stunned condition. Can all three models trigger their "Misery" ability, dealing 3 damage, or does the rule on Pg. 30 come into effect here, dealing only one damage, and requiring the removal and re-application of the stunned condition to take advantage of the two remaining "Misery" abilities?

[solkan]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

EDIT: Actually, rereading it precisely, the 'may' only applies to the 'either.' So you HAVE to apply one effect (move it or it takes damage).

The reading you're attempting to claim is inconsistent with common sense.

The "may" in Misery means that the model with Misery gets to choose whether to apply the effect at all.  If (for some unknown reason), two Misery models decided to apply their aura effects to the same model, then the Aura rule concerning choosing would apply.

The simple fact of the matter is that the player controlling the models with Misery would have to be an idiot to say "Both of these models want to apply their auras to your model."

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The aura rules specify that only one of the auras applies (opponent's choice), that's why they don't all get used up at the same time.

For reference, please see this previous thread:

 

[SirRocketPants]

Ehm.... not sure if you read what I actually said.

But reading Pandora's ability, it says you "may either push 2" or inflict 1 damage".

So you may chose between either one of these 2 actions when the Ability is triggered.... but nothing suggests that you may choose to trigger the ability or not.

I agree that the wording seems ambiguous depending on how you want to read it, and Wyrd needs to clarify the rule's intention for that sake. (Is there an official channel to get questions answered?)

 

But if they wanted to give you a choice the wording could easily have been written clearly as "this model may choose to trigger it's Misery ability to either move it 2" or have it suffer 1 damage" - since it's a use once only ability that would make sense.

 

As it is now, I read the Misery ability as once it is triggered (and you don't get a choice) you do get to chose one of the following two things : push the model 2" and have it suffer 1 damage.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, SirRocketPants said:

As it is now, I read the Misery ability as once it is triggered (and you don't get a choice) you do get to chose one of the following two things : push the model 2" and have it suffer 1 damage.

Ok. check this:

Quote

Once per Activation. After an enemy model within 6 gains Stunned or a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist Ability, this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage.

Compare:

• this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage
• this model either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage

According with your reading both of these mean the same... it's not the same "this model may push the target 3'' '" (you can choose) than "this model push the target 3'' " (you cannot choose).

Now lets imagine that in the first case (this model may push the target 3'') we want to add a second effect for the model to choose, discard a card; but we only want the model to execute one of them not both... how would you phrase that?

• this model may either push the target 3'' or make it discard a card.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Quote

Auras are not cumulative. If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the Aura would change its game state in some way), then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice.

The opponent gets to choose which aura applies (which is useful, since the auras are once per activation, they can avoid you hitting them twice that activation with the aura), and it only applies once.

If you're wanting to know how Pandora 'works' in terms of viability, Misery looks like a pretty powerful effect on paper. Even applying it a few times is going to be more than enough.

The people saying that 'simultaneous' damage is critical to woe are simply incorrect as far as I can see? They may mean spamming misery damage (aka, hitting them with the effect over and over during the course of a turn).

[Ogid]

An important note here: Missery is an aura that "may" be activated, so the player isn't forced to activate every aura in range (In fact doing so is a mistake); also you can trigger it with different conditions, not only with stunned.

The best way to use them is choosing the one you want to activate after each effect. In your example Pandora (all), Candy (fast) and Sorrow (stunned) near of a model. Let's say you activate Candy and use Glimpse of insanity to give Stunned, getting the burnt out trigger and giving it also fast.  Then you attack with self loathing and use oportunistic to give her a  and, more important, remove fast. After that your last action is a successful use of "Temper Tantrum" to give that model slow.

In this scenario the best curse of action is using the Sorrow's aura to react to the stunned (the more restrictive one), Candy's aura to react to fast (who can only react to stunned and fast) and then Pandora's aura (who may trigger her aura versus any condition) to react to slow. Doing 3 extra damage to that model in Candy's activation. You cannot trigger the 3 auras at he same time, but if you inflict states at different times you can stagger the auras.

Another way to use multiple missery auras is giving effects to several models at a time. For example if you stun 3 models with Pandora's "The box opens", one different misery aura may be triggered for each stunned enemy model; or if you inflict burning with Carver's "Breath of fire" to 2 enemies, you may trigger Pandora's and Iggy's auras to damage both of them.

Other example in that same scenario, another enemy start his activation near of those 3 woes, he uses "Risky Maneuver" and gains Focused, Pandora's aura activates and deals 1 damage, then he charges and attack expending that focused to Pandora (here that model can use the focused because as the active player he has the priority; but if any other focused or any other condition remains, Pandora could end it with her oportunistic), let's say Pandora successfuly defends and trigger "Dark Thoughts", then Candy or the Sorrow may trigger the aura, doing damage again to that model.

Hope it helps!

[Clement]

11 hours ago, Lamellarlucy said:

Can the "Misery" rule present on the "Woe" keyword's models affect a single enemy model more than once off of a single stunned condition? The ability appears to be an Aura, and on page 30 of the rulebook it states that a multiple auras with the same name do not stack but i have seen many people saying that the simultaneous damage from multiple "Misery" triggers is a core component of the "Woe" keyword. How does this work?

Example.

An enemy model is within ''Misery'' range of Pandora, Candy, and a Sorrow. Pandora afflicts the model with the Stunned condition. Can all three models trigger their "Misery" ability, dealing 3 damage, or does the rule on Pg. 30 come into effect here, dealing only one damage, and requiring the removal and re-application of the stunned condition to take advantage of the two remaining "Misery" abilities?

It's important to point out that mechanically, this is a big departure from last edition.  in 2E, each Misery Aura *did* trigger and a core of Pandora and her Woes was stacking those auras up to melt whatever is unlucky enough to be nearby.   Hopefully either you're looking at old data, or at least the people are not up to speed on how auras work now.

[Maniacal_cackle]

16 hours ago, Ogid said:

An important note here: Missery is an aura that "may" be activated, so the player isn't forced to activate every aura in range (In fact doing so is a mistake); also you can trigger it with different conditions, not only with stunned.

I don't think this is correct.

The aura is a constant, static effect. The 'may' clause applies to whether or not you cause damage to the model/move it two inches.

Thus the opponent chooses which misery aura effect to apply, [Removed something incorrect, see edit at the bottom for a more accurate conclusion].

For reference, here's Misery's text: Once per Activation. After an enemy model within 6 gains Stunned or a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist Ability, this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage.

EDIT: Actually, rereading it precisely, the 'may' only applies to the 'either.' So you HAVE to apply one effect (move it or it takes damage).

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think this is correct.

The aura is a constant, static effect. The 'may' clause applies to whether or not you cause damage to the model/move it two inches.

Thus the opponent chooses which misery aura effect to apply, [Removed something incorrect, see edit at the bottom for a more accurate conclusion].

For reference, here's Misery's text: Once per Activation. After an enemy model within 6 gains Stunned or a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist Ability, this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage.

EDIT: Actually, rereading it precisely, the 'may' only applies to the 'either.' So you HAVE to apply one effect (move it or it takes damage).

No, you don't If it worked this way then you would never have a choice of what misery to use. They would all be used as soon as a qualifing condition is applied within range and have their once per activation use used up regardless of if there was any effect applied. If there was no "may" then it would work the way you're saying it does.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

No, you don't If it worked this way then you would never have a choice of what misery to use. They would all be used as soon as a qualifing condition is applied within range and have their once per activation use used up regardless of if there was any effect applied. If there was no "may" then it would work the way you're saying it does.

The aura rules specify that only one of the auras applies (opponent's choice), that's why they don't all get used up at the same time.

[santaclaws01]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

The aura rules specify that only one of the auras applies (opponent's choice), that's why they don't all get used up at the same time.

No. The aura is used regardless of if any effect is actually applied. The opponent just gets to choose which aura they get affected by.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Quote

The Aura icon (a) means the Action or Ability affects an area around the object that has the Aura. An Aura extends out in all directions from an object a number of inches equal to the listed distance in inches, as measured from the edge of the object's base. For example, a3 means that everything within 3" and LoS of the object is affected by the Aura.

Auras are lasting effects that move with the object as it moves. All models inside the Aura’s area, including what is generating the Aura, are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object. The “affected model” in these instances is whatever model experiences some change in game state.

Auras are not cumulative. If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the Aura would change its game state in some way), then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice.

An aura isn't some effect you turn on/off. It's a constant, lasting effect ("auras are lasting effects that move with the object as it moves"). Misery is an aura that generates an effect that involves a choice (may' apply the move or damage), but the aura itself seems like a constant to me.

At least, that's how I read it.

Of course, there's some room for ambiguity on the may. My original (pre-edit)interpretation involved you not wanting to apply Misery at all, applying 0 damage and no movement (for instance, if a Take Prisoner target is in hazardous terrain). So then you have three options (don't do anything with the aura effect, apply 1 damage, or movement). I'd favour the may being part of the either (aka, you only have two options), but in either case, the aura being a constant 'field' around a model seems to be consistent with the rules to me, with the choice being part of the effect generated by the aura.

In which case the opponent chooses which one applies. In summary:

• Several models have their misery qualify against Model A.
• Model A's owner decides which misery aura applies.
• The owner of the misery aura applies which effect to apply (of the 2 or 3 options).

Seems consistent with the rules to me.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

An aura isn't some effect you turn on/off. It's a constant, lasting effect ("auras are lasting effects that move with the object as it moves"). Misery is an aura that generates an effect that involves a choice (may' apply the move or damage), but the aura itself seems like a constant to me.

At least, that's how I read it.

Of course, there's some room for ambiguity on the may. My original (pre-edit)interpretation involved you not wanting to apply Misery at all, applying 0 damage and no movement (for instance, if a Take Prisoner target is in hazardous terrain). So then you have three options (don't do anything with the aura effect, apply 1 damage, or movement). I'd favour the may being part of the either (aka, you only have two options), but in either case, the aura being a constant 'field' around a model seems to be consistent with the rules to me, with the choice being part of the effect generated by the aura.

In which case the opponent chooses which one applies. In summary:

• Several models have their misery qualify against Model A.
• Model A's owner decides which misery aura applies.
• The owner of the misery aura applies which effect to apply (of the 2 or 3 options).

Seems consistent with the rules to me.

I think the intent of Misery being this way is avoiding the scenario where an enemy is under 6 or 7 Misery auras, gain stunned and just... vaporize? Making it an aura they make sure that only 1 aura may be triggered with each effect inflicted.

The rules say one enemy may only be affected by 1 aura with the same name and if more than one try to affect it, then that player get to choose which one. The key here is the Misery auras don't affect that model for just being in range, the model with the aura needs to choose (may) to trigger his aura, then that aura will try to affect that enemy. Non-triggered auras won't try to change any game state of that model, hence that enemy cannot choose to being affected by that aura. Also the Missery auras have the "Once per activation" limitation, every aura that triggers is gone for that activation; making them pretty useless in bubble play if all must trigger at the same time.

Check for example "Life Leech", in that aura there is no "may", the player cannot choose not to trigger it; even if that aura is going to kill the model you want to keep alive to score something at the end of the game, there is no choice but deal the damage and heal. Or check for example "Enraged by Insolence" (Nekima), that aura has a "may", when the condition met you can choose to do the effect or not (in this case if the only enemy model in range is tony ironsides and your hand sucks, then you may choose not to charge him and getting reckt by his defensive trigger). In missery the may apply to either, so you may do one of these things or you may choose not to do any of them. If the "may" from missery were be removed, then any woe would be forced to activate the aura as soon as it can trigger.

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 9/13/2019 at 8:19 PM, Ogid said:

The rules say one enemy may only be affected by 1 aura with the same name and if more than one try to affect it,

I think a strict interpretation of the rules says the opposite of this, but running through some scenarios the RAW create some funkiness.. So I'll concede the interpretation that the Misery player gets to pick (because they can decide whether or not to apply the aura) probably works best in this case.

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think a strict interpretation of the rules says the opposite of this, but running through some scenarios the RAW create some funkiness.. So I'll concede the interpretation that the Misery player gets to pick (because they can decide whether or not to apply the aura) probably works best in this case.

In the rulebook (pg30) we are only introduced to the auras which are always active (like the ones in the examples); these work as you say.

But we have another breed of auras where the effect is not always active, the aura is only used to measure a range and to make clear that the ability doesn't stack; but these aren't strictly auras (in the traditional meaning of lingering effect around one model), but reactive abilities with a trigger and an effect. For example Life Leech, if a model enters in the range of that aura in his activation, he will get no damage nor trigger the healing because the trigger was gone.

The same happens with this one, Missery is always "active" checking for the trigger, but it will only try to make a change in a game state when it triggers. The other model get to choose which aura is affecting him only when that aura try to change a game state in them (this is stated clearly in the rules). So in this case as the player have control over the trigger ("may"), he can (and should) trigger just the best aura for him in each scenario.

 

[SirRocketPants]

On 9/12/2019 at 11:15 PM, solkan said:

For reference, please see this previous thread:

 

Sorry, but Misery's "move it up 2" or have it suffer 1 damage" refers to the opponents model being stunned, right? So the 2 sorrows couldn't move themselves 2". Or am I missing something here?

 

Also for the question of whether or not you can stagger the effects of overlapping misery Auras generated as a model is affected by several instances of one or another condition depends entirely on a player having to use a once per activation ability (or really, any ability) whenever possible, or if he can chose not to do so.

 

Looking at other cards it seems like abilities are always in effect, and while some abilities say that a model may do this or that or nothing at all, Misery's may seems to apply to the choice of 1dmg/2" push only.

So if a model within overlapping auras gains stunned, it seems to me all Misery auras would trigger.

However, if a model for example gained focus/burning, etc..., this might trigger only Pandora's aura, if it then gained slow from another action, Kade's aura may be triggered, and if the model was then stunned, a Sorrow's aura could trigger, for a total of 3 dmg as long as the conditions were applied at different timings.

 

There are no clues that would lead us to believe that models could choose not to use their armor, hard to wound, hard to kill or incorpreal abilities either as far as I know.

[Ogid]

29 minutes ago, SirRocketPants said:

Sorry, but Misery's "move it up 2" or have it suffer 1 damage" refers to the opponents model being stunned, right? So the 2 sorrows couldn't move themselves 2". Or am I missing something here?

It is refering to the enemy model who gained the condition.

29 minutes ago, SirRocketPants said:

So if a model within overlapping auras gains stunned, it seems to me all Misery auras would trigger.

However, if a model for example gained focus/burning, etc..., this might trigger only Pandora's aura, if it then gained slow from another action, Kade's aura may be triggered, and if the model was then stunned, a Sorrow's aura could trigger, for a total of 3 dmg as long as the conditions were applied at different timings.

 

There are no clues that would lead us to believe that models could choose not to use their armor, hard to wound, hard to kill or incorpreal abilities either as far as I know.

None of these abilities say "may", so they are applied always; even if it's not the best for his player. Misery say "may", so you can choose to trigger it or not; that aura won't try to affect an enemy model unless the woe chooses to trigger it

And if for some reason you don't want to trigger it, because it's in the perfect position and you need it alive to score something; then you can choose not to trigger Misery aura.... but then a sorrow kills it with his life leech aura when it activates; because that aura doesn't say "may", forcing your to deal 1 dmg to him....

[Adran]

20 minutes ago, SirRocketPants said:

Ehm.... not sure if you read what I actually said.

But reading Pandora's ability, it says you "may either push 2" or inflict 1 damage".

So you may chose between either one of these 2 actions when the Ability is triggered.... but nothing suggests that you may choose to trigger the ability or not.

I agree that the wording seems ambiguous depending on how you want to read it, and Wyrd needs to clarify the rule's intention for that sake. (Is there an official channel to get questions answered?)

 

But if they wanted to give you a choice the wording could easily have been written clearly as "this model may choose to trigger it's Misery ability to either move it 2" or have it suffer 1 damage" - since it's a use once only ability that would make sense.

 

As it is now, I read the Misery ability as once it is triggered (and you don't get a choice) you do get to chose one of the following two things : push the model 2" and have it suffer 1 damage.

The question in the other thread is wrong, as the thread showed, and you spotted in your first post. It is either push the moel with the condition or deal damge to the modle with the condition.

Things we know to be true:

You can only be affected by 1 aura of the same name at the same time.

The Misery Aura only affects the model gaining the condition.

 

My view is that only 1 misery aura will be used up on 1 gaining of a condition, rather than every aura gets used up but only 1 applies.

 

There is no official channel to ask questions for them to answer, but they do follow the forums. and use it as a source for FAQ questions. They don't give answers in the forums, the only official answers are either in the rules themselves or any FAQ/ errata they issue.

We don't know when they are likely to produce the first FAQ document for M3.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Ogid said:

Ok. check this:

Compare:

• this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage
• this model either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage

According with your reading both of these mean the same... it's not the same "this model may push the target 3''" (you can choose) than "this model push the target 3''" (you cannot choose).

"This model either move it up to 2" or have it suffer" is not something you'd commonly hear in English, is it? Maybe "either moves it up to 2...", but still feels weird.

If you want someone to pick one of two options, "you may either have option A or option B" is a correct way of writing that, right?

@SirRocketPants I was initially on board with the same interpretation as you, but think I ran into some funkiness... Will try to remember what it was tomorrow.

I think it has to do with there being some messiness with the aura section (a model being "affected" by an aura has at least two different meanings on that page of the rulebook).

So may be good to just settle on temporary agreements with your playgroup until an official answer is given.

[Ogid]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

"This model either move it up to 2" or have it suffer" is not something you'd commonly hear in English, is it? Maybe "either moves it up to 2...", but still feels weird.

If you want someone to pick one of two options, "you may either have option A or option B" is a correct way of writing that, right?

@SirRocketPants I was initially on board with the same interpretation as you, but think I ran into some funkiness... Will try to remember what it was tomorrow.

I think it has to do with there being some messiness with the aura section (a model being "affected" by an aura has at least two different meanings on that page of the rulebook).

So may be good to just settle on temporary agreements with your playgroup until an official answer is given.

I agree that in english you can say that to offer 2 choices, but rules are written with some patterns and some words have strong meanings; "may" is used to give the option to perform what follows, so "may" here being just an stylish way to word it is unlikely.

Also is the fact that for how auras work, that will make all misery auras considered used after the first trigger, which seems unlikely as Pandora is designed as a dangerous bubble crew.

I can see the other reading, but it's very very unlikely all things consider.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't understand how it would make all the auras get used up at once.

The enemy can only choose one aura to apply at a time. So only one aura can be used up per application of a condition.

[Ogid]

8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't understand how it would make all the auras get used up at once.

The enemy can only choose on aura to apply at a time. So only one aura can be used up per application of a condition.

The aura has the Once per activation limitation, the once per is tied to the use or the trigger of the ability, not the the successful use of it. Even if the aura doesn't affect the model because another aura is choosen, that aura did trigger and tried; but its effects were ignored.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Ogid I finally went back and read the other thread, and unless I missed it, no one in that whole debate actually quoted the rulebook? Here's the rules:

Quote

The Aura icon (a) means the Action or Ability affects an area around the object that has the Aura. An Aura extends out in all directions from an object a number of inches equal to the listed distance in inches, as measured from the edge of the object's base. For example, a3 means that everything within 3" and LoS of the object is affected by the Aura.

Auras are lasting effects that move with the object as it moves. All models inside the Aura’s area, including what is generating the Aura, are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object. The “affected model” in these instances is whatever model experiences some change in game state.

Auras are not cumulative. If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the Aura would change its game state in some way), then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice.

As the last paragraph of the rules states, you can only be affected by one misery at a time. If you're not affected by a misery from a second model, how can it have been applied/you reached your once per activation limit for that model?

[Ogid]

17 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

As the last paragraph of the rules states, you can only be affected by one misery at a time. If you're not affected by a misery from a second model, how can it have been applied/you reached your once per activation limit for that model?

That limit is not reached by affecting, but by trying to use an ability/action. For example, imagine you try to move someone with only 1 missery aura but that model has planted roots and can't be moved... was that missery used? or imagine that Seamus uses his flintlock and misses... can he shoot again?

If a missery aura triggers and try to affect something, it expends its once per activation shot; regardless of the outcome.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Ogid, what in the rulebook is leading you to that interpretation?

I would see it as:

* multiple miseries have conditions met, say misery A and B.

* enemy model chooses which one gets to happen, say Misery A.

* owner of Misery A tries to move a model with planted roots and fails (not sure that is actually legal, but let's pretend you can choose that option from your example).

Both Misery A and Misery B did nothing in this scenario, but only Misery A was applied, and thus only Misery A was used up.

[Maniacal_cackle]

If a model on the other side of the board gains stunned, does it use up every misery on the board?

No, because those auras don't apply (they're not in range/haven't been selected as the relevant misery aura).

A Misery only gets used up when it is applied in my view. According to my reading of the above rules, a model only applies one misery to itself at a time.