Swamp Mother Hatch Eggs

[yool1981]

The general summoning rule p32 states that "Summoned models are placed into base contact and within LoS of the model whose Action or Ability Summoned them unless the effect states otherwise.

"

The Hatch Egg rule states that "Summon a Gupps into base contact with any number of friendly egg markers"

Do the summoned Gupps need to be in LoS of the Swamp Mother?

Her Demise ability has a similar summoning effect but it is after the model is killed so it clearly overried the LoS rule but the Hatch Egg action does not clearly ignore the LoS requirement to summoning.

[LeperColony]

7 hours ago, yool1981 said:

Her Demise ability has a similar summoning effect but it is after the model is killed so it clearly overried the LoS rule but the Hatch Egg action does not clearly ignore the LoS requirement to summoning.

The question is whether to read the Hatch Egg summoning text as representing replacement criteria for the summoning requirements, or additional criteria to them.  In my opinion, it is a replacement criteria, so you don't need LoS.

Here's my logical framework:

1.  The ability says "summon," so we know as a starting point we have the summon rules.  By default, all summoning rules apply.

2.  Parts of the ability modify the summon rules:  The ability says it has to summon in base contact with an egg marker.  This is a condition that doesn't exist in the normal summoning rules, so it is a modification.  However, is it a change or an addition?

3.    In this case we know it's a change because the condition directly contradicts the ordinary placement process.  We don't get here from LoS, but rather from the base contact requirement.

Under ordinary summoning rules, the summoned model has to be placed in base contact to the summoning model "unless the effect states otherwise."  In this instance, the summoning model is the Swamp Mother, but the effect states we place the model in base contact with an egg.  This is altering the summoning placement rules and setting its own conditions.  Since the new placement condition doesn't mention LoS, we can ignore it.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I don't think the LOS is required in this case, the ability isn't a ,,  or have range (these needs LoS by default).

This seems like one of these cases where Specific rules > General rules.

Pragmatically, once upon a time the summoning rules said "in range and line of sight, unless the effect says otherwise".  Then the default range for summoning got changed to base contact.  (They added an errata in M2E even though almost every summoning effect said 'in range and line of sight' for various reasons...  Like Dreamer hiding behind a wall while summoning...)

But the point of discussion is whether "in base contact and line of sight" is two separate requirements (so that you need to say otherwise for each of them) or just one (so that if you specify pretty much any other instructions for what happens to the summoned model, the line of sight requirement goes away).

At the moment my list of summon effects that cannot possibly work if you try to impose a line of sight requirement are:

• Big Jake (Summoned Big Jake cannot possibly have line of sight to killed Big Jake)
• The Dreamer (buried summons due to summoning upgrade)
• Tara (buried summons due to summoning upgrade)

Sandeep's Elemental Creation specifies "Summon the named models within range, then Attach a Bound Elemental Upgrade to each of them."  Asami Tanaka's "From the Maw, They Come" has the same situation as Sandeep's action.  Pigapult's Pet Project ability says "After Deployment, Summon a Stuffed Piglet within 3" of this model."  

Collodi's The Show Must Go On says "within range" but that action's range is specified as 3", so there's line of sight required because of that.

There are all sorts of "target something, then summon into base contact with it" effects.  That's probably enough line of sight that it'll avoid the dreaded M2E "Dreamer summoning on the other side of a wall" scenario.

That leaves things like the Rat King's Rat Problem with "Summon a Rat Catcher with Slow within 2" of this model..."  Is that a small enough range to get a free "No LOS" pass?

Minako Rei's "Create Katashiro" action has a flat 3" range and the action text says "Summon a friendly Katashiro with Slow anywhere within range."  I think that's the only case where a ranged summoning action even comes close to addressing the line of sight requirement.

It's not the only case of a summoning effect addressing the line of sight requirement because the Skybound Ally summoning upgrade card () has a Demise effect which specifies "... Summon a Trained Raptor with Fast anywhere within 3" of it."

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Long and short of it is, as far as I can tell the summoning rules are supposed to be:

• By default, models are summoned in base contact.
• If a summoning effect has a range other than "in base contact with something", line of sight is required unless the effect says otherwise (such as by saying "anywhere in range") or line of sight would be impossible due to being buried.

 

[Adran]

For what its worth, her demise ability will happen while she is on the table, so the Line of sight could still apply.

The effect obviously replaces the base contact with the Spawn mother with that of the egg. I would also assume that it has removed the line of sight requirement because you have the exact placement, but part of that might just be because it feels that eggs can hatch even if you don't see them.

[solkan]

I tried searching through all of the summon abilities and actions, and the best argument I can come up with concerning the line of sight clause is Big Jake:

Quote

Unexpected Return:  During the Start Phase of Turn 5, if this model was hired into your Crew and is no longer in play, Summon Big Jake into base contact with a friendly model.  The Summoned model may take the Interact Action this turn.

It is mechanically impossible for the summoned Big Jake to have line of sight to the killed Big Jake, yet the ability doesn't mention line of sight.

Edit:  And likewise for the Dreamer and his buried summoned models.  (The Waking Dream summoning upgrade says "When this model is Summoned, it comes into play Buried and gained Stunned."  The Dreamer's Manifest Nightmares doesn't mention line of sight.)

 

[Ogid]

I don't think the LOS is required in this case, the ability isn't a ,,  or have range (these needs LoS by default).

This seems like one of these cases where Specific rules > General rules.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

Long and short of it is, as far as I can tell the summoning rules are supposed to be:

• By default, models are summoned in base contact.
• If a summoning effect has a range other than "in base contact with something", line of sight is required unless the effect says otherwise (such as by saying "anywhere in range") or line of sight would be impossible due to being buried.

This bit is how I also see it, but it's true the rules aren't 100% clear at some points.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Solkan's argument makes sense to me.

The counterfactual (summons still require line of sight) breaks the game, while the proposed interpretation (don't need LOS in those special cases) doesn't appear to break the game.

In the absence of another ruling, that makes the "doesn't need LOS" argument more likely in my mind.

[yool1981]

16 hours ago, solkan said:

But the point of discussion is whether "in base contact and line of sight" is two separate requirements (so that you need to say otherwise for each of them) or just one (so that if you specify pretty much any other instructions for what happens to the summoned model, the line of sight requirement goes away).

Exactly the point I am wondering about.

16 hours ago, solkan said:

If a summoning effect has a range other than "in base contact with something", line of sight is required unless the effect says otherwise (such as by saying "anywhere in range") or line of sight would be impossible due to being buried.

Regarding the hatch eggs & the demise ability it is mechanically possible to have LOS on the summoned models. So the action & ability could work only for the eggs in LoS of the Mother.

As Adran said

On 9/11/2019 at 12:13 PM, Adran said:

might just be because it feels that eggs can hatch even if you don't see them.

I play the swamp mother so I am biased on the matter. My instinct would remove the LoS requirement but RAW could be interpreted in such a way that LoS requirement is not removed by the wording of the action & the ability.