Out of activation + Once per activation?

[Flib Jib]

If a Family model ends its activation and uses their ability, "iA POR EL!" to have another family model take an action, is that other family model considered not-activated? If so, can it not declare any "once per activation" triggers such as Family Values?

Would love your thoughts. 😁

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"iA POR EL!":

After this model ends its Activation, another friendly Family model within 6 with Cost equal to or less than this model may discard a card to take an Action. 

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Family Values:

Once per Activation. Enemy only. Another friendly Family model within 6 may either draw a card or take the Concentrate Action. 

 

 

On a related note, How do "Once per activations" interact with step C-3 in the timing chart? If there were Once per activation effects that happen during or after step 3-C how would this resolve?

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3. End Activation: Resolve effects that happen at the end of a model’s Activation. The model counts as having Activated this Turn.

 

[Ogid]

Yes, effect that happens once per activation may trigger/be used outside of that model activation (for an obey or the family ability for example) and then again in that model "normal" activation.

What I said above doesn't interact with the activated/not activated status of the model, those are 2 different things. In each model activation (the entire C step) each model (all, ally and enemy) may use once his abilities/actions/triggers with the "once per activation" limitation regardless of if that model has been activated or not. And forcing/choosing a model to use an action outside of his activation won't make it count as activated (that would be busted as hell)*

*Unless the ability/action say so (but afaik, there is no ability/action which does that).

 

[Flib Jib]

12 minutes ago, Ogid said:

And forcing/choosing a model to use an action outside of his activation won't make it count as activated (that would be busted as hell)*

Didn't even think about that, yes, agreed. Busted as hell. I wasn't interpreting the out of activation action would proc the activation status, (kinda like a sudo paralyze) Rather, I was wondering if it were a 'condition' to be met kind of like the other conditional clauses like, "Enemy only". I was wondering if this 'clause' could not be met than the trigger could not be declared/would auto fail. The idea that, if not in the activation phase, Once per activation could not be declared. 

Is the "Once per activation" part of the text just ignored? any chance there are rules references that could help me out? 

19 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Yes, effect that happens once per activation may trigger/be used outside of that model activation (for an obey or the family ability for example) and then again in that model "normal" activation.

I agree with you, I think this is most definitely the intent. Any chance you could help me out with some rules quotes?

[Ogid]

Sure, this is covered in pg 33 under "Once per" effects. There you can check the once per activation is intended to work also outside of the model activation.

[SirFoobar]

Just a quick update in case anyone is stumbling over this thread:

Based on the Season 1 FAQ from march 2020 (M3E-Season-1-FAQ.pdf), taking once per activation actions should no longer be possible outside a model's activation.

So "iA POR EL!" can no longer be used to make other models concentrate.

[Scoffer]

17 minutes ago, SirFoobar said:

Just a quick update in case anyone is stumbling over this thread:

Based on the Season 1 FAQ from march 2020 (M3E-Season-1-FAQ.pdf), taking once per activation actions should no longer be possible outside a model's activation.

So "iA POR EL!" can no longer be used to make other models concentrate.

That's not true.

The FAQ says, that once per activation effects can be used only during steps C1-C4 of Activation phase and can't be used during start/end phase (FAQ 1.12)

¡A POR EL! and the action it generates  are resolved at step C4, because it has the same timing ("after this model ends it's activation") as Accomplice and Companion abilities that trigger a Chain Activation.

 

[solkan]

The FAQ question:

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Can Once per Activation effects occur outside an Activation, such as during the Start or End Phases?
a) No. Effects that are restricted to Once per Activation can only be used during a model’s Activation, i.e. Steps C.1 – C.4 of the Activation phase (pg. 21).

The abilities:

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"!A Por El!":  After this model ends it's Activation, another friendly Family model within 6 with Cost equal to or less than this model may discard a card to take an Action.

Bonus Actions:

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A model can only take one Bonus Action per Activation, unless the Action was generated by a Trigger.

Accomplice:

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After this model ends its Activation, a friendly model within 6" that has not Activated this Turn may discard a card or Pass Token to do so.

and the activation steps:

C3:

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End Activation: Resolve any effects that happen at the end of a model’s Activation. The model is considered to have Activated this Turn.

C4:

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Chain Activations: Some effects can cause models to Activate after another model. If a model would Activate this way, immediately go back to the start of Step C. Players may not Activate more than two models in a row this way, unless they are Activated by the same effect.

So the action generated by "!A For El" basically happens between C3 and C4, and you get into the paradoxical sounding state that an 'after activation' effect is happening during the activation steps.  In other words, the end of an activation is stretchy the same way that the end of an Action is stretchy.

For an Action, you resolve the Step 5 effects of the action, then you may have a pile of 'after resolving' effects to work through.  You're still resolving the action (the Step 6 triggers are still modified by things that modified the action), even though the Action's credits are rolling.

The FAQ's implying that the same principle's true for Activations.  At C3, you start rolling the credits but the movie's not over yet until all of the triggered events are done.

 

[SirFoobar]

4 hours ago, Scoffer said:

The FAQ says, that once per activation effects can be used only during steps C1-C4 of Activation phase and can't be used during start/end phase (FAQ 1.12)

Actually I was basing my assessment on FAQ 2.5

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Can a model take a Bonus (F) Action outside of an Activation?

a) No. Like all effects that are Once per Activation, Bonus (F) Actions cannot be taken outside of a model’s Activation (such as during the Start or End Phases).

Unless once per activation actions are categorically different than bonus actions (which are by default once per activation), to me this states that concentrate cannot be taken outside the a model's activation.

I am quite sure that "iA POR EL!" is supposed to combo with Abuela Ortega's "Nice Shot, Dear!" which sepcifically targets models acting outside their activation. To me this means, that the action generated by "iA POR EL!" is not part of the acting model's activation.

To me the core question is if "a model's activation" described in FAQ 2.5 should be read as "any model's activation" or "the acting models activation".

[SirFoobar]

Also to I would have thought, that "[...] effects that happen at the end of a model’s Activation." (C3) is not the same as stuff happening after an activation (i.e. after C). Thanks to @solkan for citing the exact wording of accomplice, which clearly should happen at C3/C4 instead of "after C".

Edited September 2, 2020 by SirFoobar
clarification

[SirFoobar]

4 hours ago, solkan said:

The FAQ's implying that the same principle's true for Activations.  At C3, you start rolling the credits but the movie's not over yet until all of the triggered events are done.

So this would imply that the concentrate of the other model is taken during the activation of the model with "!A Por El!", right?

Would you then agree that if Abuela Ortega obeys a friendly model to take a concentrate action, this model could not take the concentrate action again if it was the target of Abuela's "!A Por El!", because both actions were part of Abuela's activation?

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, SirFoobar said:

Actually I was basing my assessment on FAQ 2.5

Unless once per activation actions are categorically different than bonus actions (which are by default once per activation), to me this states that concentrate cannot be taken outside the a model's activation.

I am quite sure that "iA POR EL!" is supposed to combo with Abuela Ortega's "Nice Shot, Dear!" which sepcifically targets models acting outside their activation. To me this means, that the action generated by "iA POR EL!" is not part of the acting model's activation.

To me the core question is if "a model's activation" described in FAQ 2.5 should be read as "any model's activation" or "the acting models activation".

The bit of rules there says AN activation, not ITS activation.

Once per activation stuff can happen during any activation (yours or another models), but cannot happen outside an activation (start phase, end phase, etc).

So that passage is addressing a different issue (misery in start phase being the biggest question before the original FAQ).

Also FAQ 2.5? What's that?