Enraged by Insolence

[Ming]

Here's the text of Nekima's Enraged by Insolence action:

Until the End Phase, after a friendly Nephilim is killed within range, another friendly Nephilim witihin range may Push up to their Mv and take a y Action.

What does "another" mean here? I suppose it's "non-Nekima" as in "other model". Or does it mean "not the killed model", including Nekima?

 

[Hawkoon]

10 minutes ago, Ming said:

Here's the text of Nekima's Enraged by Insolence action:

Until the End Phase, after a friendly Nephilim is killed within range, another friendly Nephilim witihin range may Push up to their Mv and take a y Action.

What does "another" mean here? I suppose it's "non-Nekima" as in "other model". Or does it mean "not the killed model", including Nekima?

 

I've been reading it as "not-the-killed-model" but I can see it interpreted as "not-Nekima" as well. It's a bit unclear wording that I think needs to be adressed in the FAQ.

[Ogid]

"Another" usually excludes the model in which the ability is printed; and as the triger is "After" the kill, it'd be weird if "Another" were refering to the killed model... So I'd bet Another is excluding Nekima.

This aura basically reads "are you sure you want to kill that tot while the Mature is near?"

[Kharnage]

Consider the following trigger, for comparison purposes.
"My Loyal Servant: Another model (other than this model) within 3" of the target Heals 1/2/3."
Conclusion: "Another model" excludes the target, and "(other than this model)" excludes the acting model. 

Ergo, "another friendly Nephilim" means a model that isn't the model that was killed. Nekima can take the attacks. They specify so that when the ability cooks off, you don't have Nephilim potentially getting Samurai's Demise (Final Strike) for free, potentially healing out of death from Teach Them Fear. 

 

[Scoffer]

I've spent some time comparing wordings of different abilities, actions and triggers and came to conclusion, that "another" means "not the object, from which range is measured". 

Nekima's Enraged by Insolence is an aura, so range is measured from Nekima and another friendly nephilim is any friendly non-Nekima nephilim 

My Loyal Servant needs "other than this model" clarification, because range is measured from the target.  So another model is any model, other than the target and Zoraida.

[Kharnage]

1 minute ago, Scoffer said:

that "another" means "not the object, from which range is measured". 

I would argue that the object in question is the Friendly Nephilim that has been killed, not Nekima.
Your interpretation allows the dying model to move, take an attack, and potentially heal out of death though, so if that's the can of worms we wanna open, I'm all for it. 

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

I would argue that the object in question is the Friendly Nephilim that has been killed, not Nekima.
Your interpretation allows the dying model to move, take an attack, and potentially heal out of death though, so if that's the can of worms we wanna open, I'm all for it. 

That would mean, that you’d have to measure range from the dying model, and Nekima is the model that defines the range. Also the ability triggers after the first model has been killed, so it isn’t around for you to target - even if the ability didn’t specifically require you to target ‘another’ model. 

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

Your interpretation allows the dying model to move, take an attack, and potentially heal out of death though, so if that's the can of worms we wanna open, I'm all for it. 

Well, this is a good point tho... Revising the damage timming (pg34), the after killing triggers are played before the model is removed (step b). I assumed the model was removed first, but it's not as clear as I thought initially... Yep, I agree, this is FAQ material.

 

About the "can of worms" of the killed model being healed, it could be legal under some circunstances even if the killed model isn't the one using the aura: A Nephillim is killed, Hayreddin is in range, he push in a way he is within 1'' of the dying model and 1'' of the enemy model, he attacks and gets his "Necrotic Decay" triggers, he decided to suffer 1 damage (enough to trigger black blood), thanks to revitalizing ichor the killed model heals 1 and is no longer killed... If he cannot get into 1'' of both, he could push toward the dying model and attack it (the model HP cannot be reduced below 0 and it's easier to cheat a low crow to get the trigger and heal it). This is a bit weird because the healing is supposed to happen in the step a, but in the pg 25 where it rules the healing, it seems ok.

Is the above legal or there is any timming issue I'm not considering?

[Kharnage]

7 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Also the ability triggers after the first model has been killed, so it isn’t around for you to target - even if the ability didn’t specifically require you to target ‘another’ model. 

The model HAS to be on the table when Enraged occurs, otherwise there is no model to measure and see if it's within the aura or not, and Enraged becomes a useless ability. Ergo, it can be selected for a generated attack, as per your ruling.

Edit: there is no "well it used to be in the range of the aura" precedent, the dying model is definitively still on the table when this cooks off in step 6c.

[Adran]

19 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

The model HAS to be on the table when Enraged occurs, otherwise there is no model to measure and see if it's within the aura or not, and Enraged becomes a useless ability. Ergo, it can be selected for a generated attack, as per your ruling.

Edit: there is no "well it used to be in the range of the aura" precedent, the dying model is definitively still on the table when this cooks off in step 6c.

Actions generated by effects suggest that whilst the ranges are all check in step 6 c, you don't take a new action until you have completely resolved the old action. As such the initial killed Nephilim is not on the table when you get to make the new attack.

 

[Kharnage]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

Actions generated by effects suggest that whilst the ranges are all check in step 6 c, you don't take a new action until you have completely resolved the old action. As such the initial killed Nephilim is not on the table when you get to make the new attack.

While I hope you're right, how do you resolve your interpretation in light of Final Strike from the Samurai? They don't get to take the action until they're completely off the table, and in range of nothing?
EDIT: I suppose that that specifies "before the model is removed", and this does not... but still, there's precedent for resolving attacks in the middle of death.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

While I hope you're right, how do you resolve your interpretation in light of Final Strike from the Samurai? They don't get to take the action until they're completely off the table, and in range of nothing?
EDIT: I suppose that that specifies "before the model is removed", and this does not... but still, there's precedent for resolving attacks in the middle of death.

Exactly that. Final strike tells me to break the rules, but in general you don't break the rules.

[Kharnage]

While you're here @Adran, what side of "another friendly Nephilim" are you on? Honestly my interpretation of how it works stems from the fact that earlier Enraged by Insolence writings during Beta ONLY allowed Nekima to take attacks (charge attacks, and badly written as it was) so I figured that RAI, and truly still RAW, that it allows her to take the attacks. 
EDIT: Truly why they didn't just paste A Mother's Rage from the Spawn Mother into Nephilim is beyond me.

[solkan]

And honestly I’d bet more on Final Strike being FAQ’d as “Just don’t remove the model until the action is resolved, perform everything else as usual” than Enraged By Insolence causing the action to have unusual resolution.

Note that there’s no timing paradox caused by:

• effect generates push and grants an action
• model removed that generated the effect
• action resolves

because the Action has already been generated.  

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

While you're here @Adran, what side of "another friendly Nephilim" are you on? Honestly my interpretation of how it works stems from the fact that earlier Enraged by Insolence writings during Beta ONLY allowed Nekima to take attacks (charge attacks, and badly written as it was) so I figured that RAI, and truly still RAW, that it allows her to take the attacks. 

I'd stayed out of that because I'm not sure. I think its "Not the killed model", but that's largely based on the English language rather than rules.

[Ogid]

Ah ok, gotcha! That is what I was missing. The trigger "queue" the action. So Hayreddin can't heal the killed model triggering his own black blood. Ty!

But in that case the killed model wouldn't be a possible user of that aura, leaving Nekima as the only one that "Another" could be excluding... However I agree it's not clear.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Ogid said:

Ah ok, gotcha! That is what I was missing. The trigger "queue" the action. So Hayreddin can't heal the killed model triggering his own black blood. Ty!

But in that case the killed model wouldn't be a possible user of that aura, leaving Nekima as the only one that "Another" could be excluding... However I agree it's not clear.

For what its worth you could push the killed model if it didn't say "another model."

[Ogid]

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

For what its worth you could push the killed model if it didn't say "another model."

Ty! It's worth... I'm still learning the timmings of this game.

So the push is played when the aura triggers (damage sequence, step b, before removing the killed model), but the attack is queued until that action is resolved. So both are legal targets of the aura and it could be refering to any of them...

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Ty! It's worth... I'm still learning the timmings of this game.

So the push is played when the aura triggers (damage sequence, step b, before removing the killed model), but the attack is queued until that action is resolved. So both are legal targets of the aura and it could be refering to any of them...

My understanding of the timing is

The nephlim takes damage (steps 1-5 of the damage chart). It reaches 0 health and you work through step 6 of the detailed damage timing. The Aura is resolved as part of step 6c, so this is where you would do its effects, except the rules tell us that Actions generated by effecst don't happen until you have finished resolving the action that caused them, so the push would resolve and the attack would wait until later. Then you remove the model and finish any other effects to be resolved, and then you take the action granted by the aura.

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

I've spent some time comparing wordings of different abilities, actions and triggers and came to conclusion, that "another" means "not the object, from which range is measured". 

That's not what it means. Another means other than the subject. The subject in this case is the killed model.

[Ogid]

20 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

That's not what it means. Another means other than the subject. The subject in this case is the killed model.

In general the use of pronoums are problematic when it could refer to more than 1 object... after going through some cards it does seem to be used to exclude the target when it targets. In one case I've found using it to exclude the caster, but in that case it is clarified in brackets:

• In the trigger "my loyal servant" from Your Nightmare (Dreamer) or from Hex (Zoraida) reads "Another model (other than this model) within 3'' of the target heals 1/2/3". In those actions the target is an enemy model, but the "Another" is excluding the caster.

After the answers in this thread and revising the stat cards, I'm leaning toward "Another" being the killed model in this case.

 

[Sharp_GT]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

...In one case I've found using it to exclude the caster, but in that case it is clarified in brackets...

That clinches it for me, any time I see a similar effect the model is excluded with "(except for this model)" 

Also the flavor (and so usually the intent) makes sense that Nekima herself would be the one getting enraged and charging in

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

In general the use of pronoums are problematic when it could refer to more than 1 object... after going through some cards it does seem to be used to exclude the target when it targets. In one case I've found using it to exclude the caster, but in that case it is clarified in brackets:

• In the trigger "my loyal servant" from Your Nightmare (Dreamer) or from Hex (Zoraida) reads "Another model (other than this model) within 3'' of the target heals 1/2/3". In those actions the target is an enemy model, but the "Another" is excluding the caster.

After the answers in this thread and revising the stat cards, I'm leaning toward "Another" being the killed model in this case.

 

Another isn't excluding the caster in My Loyal Servant, it's excluding the target. If it wasn't for the added restriction in parentheses My Loyal Servant could be used to heal the model declaring the trigger. 

[Ogid]

30 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Another isn't excluding the caster in My Loyal Servant, it's excluding the target. If it wasn't for the added restriction in parentheses My Loyal Servant could be used to heal the model declaring the trigger. 

Uff, I don't like that wording, at all. The use of brackets there seems to be clarifying the meaning of another, not adding an extra restriction... Ty for correcting it tho.

It would be clearer with something along the lines of:

• "Another model different from this model within 3'' of the target heals 1/2/3"
• This trigger cannot heal this model. "Another model within 3'' of the target heals 1/2/3"