Running Pandora

[Regelridderen]

@Mut I like the look of the Hinamatsu, Kade, Doppleganger build. It’s something, I’ve been theorizing with myself. Seems like you can really mess up an opponents plan that way.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Mut said:

I decided in this game to forgo Woe synergies in favor of fast, hard-hitting models from the Neverborn hiring pool. I also wanted three Lures to keep models away from the Ice Pillar spam, and it worked like a charm.

This is the kind of decision making that I love; kudos for that mate and ty for sharing it!

[tunagami]

15 hours ago, Mut said:

Another update from the escalation league I'm in:

 

Game 3 (8-5 win vs Rasputina) - 40SS

.....

<SNIP AWESOME INFO>

Thanks for the report, Mut!  I appreciate you writing this seeing as how she is the master I am using getting back into the game for M3E.  After my first game with her and seeing how all of the Woe synergies clicked...... yeah.  She is a fun puzzle!

[Mut]

2 hours ago, tunagami said:

Thanks for the report, Mut!  I appreciate you writing this seeing as how she is the master I am using getting back into the game for M3E.  After my first game with her and seeing how all of the Woe synergies clicked...... yeah.  She is a fun puzzle!

The thing I like so far with her the most is how versatile she ends up being, and to be honest it's kind of surprised me just how versatile she's played. In my games vs. Guild, she is essentially a beater more than a control piece. With all the huge damage tracks on many of the Guild models, she's capable of laying down a lot of damage pretty quickly without putting herself into a lot of trouble. In the game vs. Raspy, she was used as a control and support model the most, using Mood Swings for key activation swaps, placing Stunned where needed to remove defensive triggers, pushing Kade around and granting him automatic triggers on his attacks, and of course helping with the strat/schemes. She's able to do so much that you almost always have a valuable thing to do with her Actions.

Pretty sure my next matchup is going to be Swampfiend (Bayou), and the next Neverborn master I'm painting up is Zoraida. Should be a fun game to say the least

[Mut]

16 hours ago, Ogid said:

This is the kind of decision making that I love; kudos for that mate and ty for sharing it!

Thanks, it was that or get blasted apart in the middle of 15 Ice Pillars, so it seemed like an easy decision to make

[Mut]

16 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

@Mut I like the look of the Hinamatsu, Kade, Doppleganger build. It’s something, I’ve been theorizing with myself. Seems like you can really mess up an opponents plan that way.

Stone for stone, Hinamatsu is probably one of the best, if not the best Henchman in the faction when used correctly. Absolutely brutal to deal with, and the pass token generation is way more useful than you'd think.

[Gaston]

@Mut 

Totally agree about Pandora's flexibility. She is an amazing master like that.

[Toqtamish]

any upgrades in particular people like with Woe ? Just got a full Pandora plus Teddy and Iggy crew today. 

[Ogid]

Depends... If you are worried for your beaters, Inhuman Reflexes is solid in Teddy and Kade; the bear is tough but can be killed and the little kid is a glass cannon, the jump helps a lot keeping both alive and the extra damage is a nice extra. IR is also nice in Candy if you plan to facetank with her, even if the charge damage is wasted; it helps her to stay alive without eating your entire cache and reposition herself to get other models into her corrupted inocence aura.

Aversion could be a decent Pact/Eldritch holder if you need the draw, initiative or remove conditions in your models.

[Ogid]

Talking about Pandora... Have someone tried Wrath in woes bubble? Thematically it's a good fit.

And rules wise seems also on point: It has Terrifying (goes well with Weeping Widow); his sin tokens mechanic to redirect attacks (good pair with Misery aura to reposition enemies with Sin Tokens next to each other and engaged with something, with Lysa to make them stack those tokens and with Pandora Tendrils to keep them in place); on top of that, he isn't a bad beater and may use Destructive Performance and Violent Ghosts for area damage in stacked enemies (which is a nice pair with Pandora Pulse)...

[Maniacal_cackle]

Question: is Pandora even a bubble crew anymore?

Misery doesn't stack, so it is not that useful having more than 1-2 most of the time, surely?

[Toqtamish]

17 hours ago, Ogid said:

Depends... If you are worried for your beaters, Inhuman Reflexes is solid in Teddy and Kade; the bear is tough but can be killed and the little kid is a glass cannon, the jump helps a lot keeping both alive and the extra damage is a nice extra. IR is also nice in Candy if you plan to facetank with her, even if the charge damage is wasted; it helps her to stay alive without eating your entire cache and reposition herself to get other models into her corrupted inocence aura.

Aversion could be a decent Pact/Eldritch holder if you need the draw, initiative or remove conditions in your models.

Why can’t candy use the charge damage ?base size ?

 

why aversion for pact versus a sorrow ?

[Adran]

26 minutes ago, Toqtamish said:

Why can’t candy use the charge damage ?base size ?

Candy doesn't have a  action. She could charge for just the movement and then do the blade rush damage, but she doesn't have an attack to do at the end of the action, so its certainly less efficient than normal.

[Kharnage]

 

28 minutes ago, Toqtamish said:

why aversion for pact versus a sorrow ?

Because Aversions are just... that little bit better. There are a lot of 3/4/6 tracks in the game, and being able to focus-swing and cheat severe for 6 damage to instantly remove a Sorrow is a decently common problem. Antipathy is also a great defensive ability, forcing every random person charging them to basically pass a Wp 13 duel or be pushed away before taking the attack action generated by a charge. Frightening Reminder helps get models that don't wanna activate yet, like Candy, up the board, and the movement tricks on the card in general I find more useful. Misery Loves Company doesn't usually accomplish anything I needed. Rare is the occasion I think to myself "man, if I just had 5 and only 5 more stones of meh minion in that melee over there". Good for Hold Up Their Forces, I guess?

[Mut]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Question: is Pandora even a bubble crew anymore?

Misery doesn't stack, so it is not that useful having more than 1-2 most of the time, surely?

Sort of. The main bubbles now are Pandora's bonus action plus the Poltergeist's 2" Wp aura and Weeping Widow when it plays into things. Mood Swings is also a 6" bubble pretty much. Tendrils can factor into certain scenarios too. Also, Candy's 4" Corrupted bubble is pretty important, if not one of the most important ones in the crew. 

Misery is an afterthought in most games, but it does add up over the course of a few turns, especially if you're maximizing Woe bonus actions to dish out Stunned like candy (pun intended!)

[Mut]

Game 4 (4-3 win vs Bayou Zoraida) - 45SS

• Pandora w/Ancient Pact, 4 stone pool
• Poltergeist
• Hinamatsu
• Candy
• Doppleganger
• Baby Kade
• Sorrow w/Ancient Pact

Strat was Corrupted Idols, and my two schemes were Dig Their Graves and Vendetta. I went into this game fully expecting to play for a draw because my opponent, who is an experienced Bayou player and a solid player in his own right, was using the most busted master in Malifaux right now for Corrupted Idols. However, he went with a list variation I was not expecting, which was Zoraida, McTavish w/Inferiority Complex, Bad Juju, First Mate w/Inferiority Complex, a Bokor, and a pool of 8 stones. I was expecting two Silurids in place of Juju, so my list was actually a bit more well-suited for what he ran vs. what I thought he'd run. We also found out he'd been playing the Ensorcel trigger wrong up to this point (he was using it multiple times in Zoraida's activation, getting off 3x Ensorcels every time she activated, hence the 8 stones), so knowing that now, I think he would've maybe changed his list up a bit from what he actually ran as his need for 8 stones is questionable. That said, my opponent is one of the more technically sound players I've played in Malifaux and is a straight shooter, and made this game immensely enjoyable. Other than a missed point on turn two for the strategy, he played an excellent game. This one was super tight with only a couple minor mistakes by the both of us, and was probably one of the best games of Malifaux I've ever played. Tip of the cap to you Steve!

Some of the MVPs:

- Pandora - She did not do a whole lot this game, but a clutch turn 4 Grasping Tentacles slowed down First Mate enough to prevent him from reaching an idol marker and interacting with it, which denied a strat point in turn 5. That single play made up for my bad positioning of her most of the game.

- Candy - She had Vendetta on Bad Juju and made it count, smacking him for 6 damage with Self Loathing to score the first and only point I'd get for the scheme. I had a pretty good idea I'd never score the second point of that scheme (Juju is a healing machine), but knowing how conservative I wanted to play this game, one point was all I'd need. She ended up dying by the end to McTavish but not before putting him down to about 3 wounds, which later allowed the Doppleganger to score Dig for my second scheme point.

- Baby Kade - He got off a single  attack all game. Sounds pretty useless right? Nope! Kade Lured and used his bonus action the whole game, using movement tricks to protect models, move stuff into range for attacks, and positioned things for helping to score VP. His movement tricks are super useful and although his stat 7 melee attack is scary, I'm finding the little tyke more useful as a utilitarian piece lately.

- Doppleganger - There's never a game that I run her that she doesn't have some kind of key impact with scoring VPs. This time around it was a Lure against McTavish to put him within 1" of a scheme marker, and then a charge to take off his last wound and score Dig. Don't Mind Me is always valuable.

- Hinamatsu - I had no intentions of ever going into his Obey-fueled pain train bunker, so Hinamatsu's main role this game was mostly as a decoy. I used her mainly as a deterrent for the First Mate to roam free, but also as a 15" threat should he expose Juju enough to give me a window to charge. She didn't do much but her ability to slice and dice absolutely weighs in the minds of your opponents and you can definitely use it to your advantage at times.

Overall I had a blast and it was a super fun game. I wanted to play for a draw but as the game went on I started to get less and less afraid of McTavish and moved up to control the center of the board, as my opponent built a little bunker with the gator man, Juju, Zoraida and the Bokor. I also hope we got the Ensorcel rule right now, as our Henchmen ruled for once per Zoraida's activation, so if anyone on here knows otherwise, please confirm so my Bayou opponent and I know what's correct.

Game 5, which is the final round, is in about two weeks, so I'll post more then. I think Woe has pretty much locked up the top spot in the league unless I massively lose next week, but let's hope that's not the case. Thanks for reading!

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Mut said:

 

 I also hope we got the Ensorcel rule right now, as our Henchmen ruled for once per Zoraida's activation, so if anyone on here knows otherwise, please confirm so my Bayou opponent and I know what's correct.

Great write-up! I'm just confused by this part.

Ensorcel says "once per activation", right? So what's the confusion? Zoraida can use it once per activation, so only once during her activation. If she somehow can gain a second activation, she could do it again, or if she took an action during another model's activation... But generally she will get only one ensorcel per turn.

[Adran]

21 minutes ago, Mut said:

 

Overall I had a blast and it was a super fun game. I wanted to play for a draw but as the game went on I started to get less and less afraid of McTavish and moved up to control the center of the board, as my opponent built a little bunker with the gator man, Juju, Zoraida and the Bokor. I also hope we got the Ensorcel rule right now, as our Henchmen ruled for once per Zoraida's activation, so if anyone on here knows otherwise, please confirm so my Bayou opponent and I know what's correct.

 

Strictly it is once per each models activation, but I can't think of a way to let Zoriada cast an obey in someone elses activation at the moment. She can only declare it as a trigger once in her activation, so its only 1 "super obey" in her activation.

Its also worth noting that whilst you can declare triggers in the action generated by the obey, you can't declare triggers in the action generated by the Ensorcel trigger.

You might find Zoraida slightly less scary in cursed idols now (but she is still pretty good, but no where near as good as if you could do 3 ensorcels a turn)

 

[Mut]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Great write-up! I'm just confused by this part.

Ensorcel says "once per activation", right? So what's the confusion? Zoraida can use it once per activation, so only once during her activation. If she somehow can gain a second activation, she could do it again, or if she took an action during another model's activation... But generally she will get only one ensorcel per turn.

I have always interpreted it as "once per activation", meaning only one use for her in a turn unless she somehow gained another activation in that turn. Aside from it just reading correctly to me, if it were not that way, it would make her by far the most broken master in the game by a country mile

My opponent was reading it as though he could only use Ensorcel on another model's Action once per turn. I can see how someone would interpret it that way and we resolved it amicably. As I said in my recap, my opponent was super solid on all other rules and a solid technical player so he definitely was not trying to pull a fast one.

[Mut]

2 hours ago, Kharnage said:

 

Because Aversions are just... that little bit better. There are a lot of 3/4/6 tracks in the game, and being able to focus-swing and cheat severe for 6 damage to instantly remove a Sorrow is a decently common problem. Antipathy is also a great defensive ability, forcing every random person charging them to basically pass a Wp 13 duel or be pushed away before taking the attack action generated by a charge. Frightening Reminder helps get models that don't wanna activate yet, like Candy, up the board, and the movement tricks on the card in general I find more useful. Misery Loves Company doesn't usually accomplish anything I needed. Rare is the occasion I think to myself "man, if I just had 5 and only 5 more stones of meh minion in that melee over there". Good for Hold Up Their Forces, I guess?

I decided to just use the models I had for this escalation league, but I wanted to use Aversions something fierce. I think they're going to be a huge part of Pandora crews moving forward and are absolutely annoying for marker-heavy pools.

[Ogid]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Question: is Pandora even a bubble crew anymore?

Misery doesn't stack, so it is not that useful having more than 1-2 most of the time, surely?

They can work well in small groups of 2-3 models; but they get some advantages of bubbling, specialy because their abilities are sort of nested:

Key: Woe (oportunistic appart from stunned): normal actions or abilities // bonus action. (t=trigger, S=shockwave, bold font=Blast/PulseorAura(number), += different effects depending on triggers or damage track)

• Pandora (all): Stunned, Slow(t) // Stunned(6)
• Poltergeist():  // Stunned
• Candy (fast): Stunned, Slow(4) // Stunned+Fast(t)
• Carver (Focused): Burning+Burning // Stunned
• Iggy (Burning): Burning+Burning(t), Burning(S)+Injured(t) // -
• Kade (slow): Slow(t) // -
• Lyssa (Staggered): - // Staggered
• Sorrow (): Stunned(t) // Stunned
• Aversion(): 

Some models have abilities that don't trigger their own aura, but trigger someone else (Candly-> Kade; Carver -> Iggy), so staying near of each other mean extra damage or control.

Some of their abilities affects more than one model: Pandora the box opens will deal a 50% extra damage (2->3; if there are enough extra woes around to trigger one Misery for each enemy stunned) or Candy slow pulse can activate Pandora and Kade's auras; so again extra benefices from staying together.

Also some of them can inflict states several times a turn, so even if they can trigger their own aura, they need other woes (or Pandora) near to get a Ping for each ability use (Pandora, Candy, Carver, Iggy, Kade and Sorrow)

Lyssa and Aversion seem to be playing their own game there, but they can be useful utility wise or as extra bodies for stunned pings.

[Ogid]

On 10/4/2019 at 10:31 AM, Ogid said:

Talking about Pandora... Have someone tried Wrath in woes bubble? Thematically it's a good fit.

I've been toying a bit more with this thematic crew idea... and not sure how competitive it would be; but it seems cool!

• Crew: Pandora, Poltergeist, Candy, Wrath, Doppleganger, Lyssa, Lyssa, Cyclops, upgrade (IR for Wrath or Candy) + 9 SS cache

Idea:

Pandora + Candy + Doppleganger makes for a pseudo-gunline with 3 self-loathing. Cyclops may set up pilars to create entrenched positions to get cover, heal allies and to fuel Lyssa and Cyclops "Frozen Vigor". Wrath, Lyssa and Doppleganger have Lure/Bring it to make them enter the bubble; "bring it" fuel Wrath with Sin Tokens and the Frozen Vigor will help a lot mitigating all those damage.

For example, Lyssa will have 1 shield + incorporeal: She would get no damage versus a min 2 attack, then will suffer 1 damage and then she would get healed and shielded. Stacking 2 Sins tokens in the other model during her activation. Versus a min 3 damage she would get 1 damage in the first attack that may get healed later and then attack or reposition)

If more than 1 model enter in the bubble and gain Sin tokens, then this would be the control play: Missery may be used to position those models next to each other and engaged with something (here the 2 range of the cyclops will help a lot). Cyclops and lyssa may give staggered and Pandora may even use Tendrils to keep them in place; the good thing is that if they have Sin tokens any attack they try to made will be redirected to his ally (they are in control of both duels but these are wasted AP after all). Doppleganger may now copy Lyssa "Claws" with his built in trigger, forcing them quite reliabily to attack the other model stuck next to him (now controling that flip) on top of a bit of extra damage (or just keep beating them with self-loathing).

Stacking sin tokens and keep Wrath in the vanguard will be very important: The sin tokens are meant to be used defensively to redirect attacks towards enemy models or toward henchmans if there are no other enemies in range (the 9SS are there for a reason); Lyssa, Doppleganger and Cyclops can be defended this way. But also offensively with Destructive Performance or giving Wrath to his claws.

A different flavour of woes and a very thematic one; the other crew will beat each other or themselves to death XDD.

[Wenshai]

I took Dora into Brewmaster yesterday.

 

Holy cow, Woes are effective.

 

Admittedly, I dont focus on abusing conditions. 

 

My crew was

Pandora, Poltergeist, Wrath, Candy, Kade, Teddy, Doppelganger, Iggy. 

 

The amount of simple duels i threw down kept stripping his hand of useful cards. Anytime Pandora activated, my opponent moaned. Anytime misery triggered, it was simply a bonus, to add to a stunned condition or a slow condition.

 

I didnt even synergise too well, by keeping Poltergeist nearby the WP duel abuse. I simply used him as a scheme runner.

[Mut]

On 10/5/2019 at 9:28 PM, Wenshai said:

I took Dora into Brewmaster yesterday.

 

Holy cow, Woes are effective.

 

Admittedly, I dont focus on abusing conditions. 

 

My crew was

Pandora, Poltergeist, Wrath, Candy, Kade, Teddy, Doppelganger, Iggy. 

 

The amount of simple duels i threw down kept stripping his hand of useful cards. Anytime Pandora activated, my opponent moaned. Anytime misery triggered, it was simply a bonus, to add to a stunned condition or a slow condition.

 

I didnt even synergise too well, by keeping Poltergeist nearby the WP duel abuse. I simply used him as a scheme runner.

Good to hear! What was your final score and what were the scheme/strats?

[Mut]

Game 5 (8-4 loss vs Kaeris) - 50SS

• Pandora w/Eldritch Magic, 4 stone pool
• Poltergeist
• Candy
• Doppleganger
• Baby Kade
• Teddy
• Iggy
• Sorrow

Strat was Turf War, and my two schemes were Assassinate and Outflank. I have never played against Kaeris (Kaeris, Eternal Flame, Elijah, Flame Golem, Iggy, Mech Rider, SS miner, Carlos) so I had somewhat of an idea what to expect, but I think in third edition, if you haven't played against her yet, you really don't know how good/oppressive she can be until you experience it. I heard how terrible she was in 2nd edition and I also heard how good she is in 3rd edition, and the rumors are true: She's a very solid master with a very solid crew. My opponent played her well. I also played probably my worst game of the entire league, making quite a few positioning mistakes and letting some key models get caught out. I also didn't focus enough on using Pandora's condition removal with Eldritch Magic's added attack, and it cost me as the Burning and Injured build up SUPER fast. I also had some terrible cards (flipping the Black Joker 4 times does not help one's chances), but can't blame that for the loss as my overall play was marred with mistakes. Oh well, can't win 'em all!

Some of the MVPs:

- Pandora - She got a lot of attacks in, but shouldn't have been attacking probably. If I get this matchup again she'll still get Eldritch Magic and she'll be doing nothing but removing conditions and using her bonus action. It's that important, especially Injured.

- Poltergeist - Cleared 3 or 4 Pyre markers. My opponent had no idea this was possible and had to read the card. I enjoyed the look of disbelief on his face

- Candy - I just played her poorly, activating her too early and not getting max value out of Corrupted Innocence. She also flipped pretty bad on Self Loathing and couldn't get much done.

- Baby Kade - Died before he got a single attack off, thanks to a Red Joker. He had fast too so I was excited to butcher the Flame Golem, but alas it was not to be.

- Doppleganger - Helped score both schemes. Didn't do much else.

- Teddy - First game ever with Teddy, and the Teddy/Kade combo. I got him killed quite early thanks to an aggressive charge on Kaeris. I was able to get in a charge, and then had two attacks queued up and then flurry. However, my opponent cleverly had Iggy with Kaeris, and as soon as you hit Kaeris, you gain Burning. As soon he gained Burning, Iggy's misery aura pushed Teddy back 2", and I was then out of engagement. My opponent used my own tech against me and I loved it.

It was a good game by my opponent, who played sound, and a pretty bad game by me, so I'l learn from it. I have to be more careful with Teddy/Kade, they hit like a truck but you have to be super selective about engagements with them, because boy does Teddy go down fast. I honestly don't see a big reason to bring Teddy over Hinamatsu, I think her Armor 2 is vastly better than Teddy's healing, and that makes Kade expendable, though I do like him without Teddy in some crew setups.

That concludes the escalation league. Woe will hopefully finish at the top of the heap thanks to 36 VP through 5 games, but regardless I had an absolute blast and got to play against some new crews and some new folks, some of which will be getting more games with me soon enough. Much credit goes to Rob of Nerdhammer for organizing and running the league. Thanks for reading and if I get any more Pandora games in the near future I'll be posting them here.