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Running Pandora


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1 hour ago, Mut said:

Pretty vague first question there :) 

Do you have any specific questions about crew synergies, best matchups, top models, etc?

Thanks, I do my best 😛

But yeah, pretty much everything. She seems to not have gotten as much attention in m3e? So I’m looking for experiences, synergies, strategien etc.

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I've not seen much of her on the forums, so perhaps she hasn't been played much yet. You could be the first to work out the best ways to play her/see where she shines!

Some things I note is she is a bubble-oriented crew, with an emphasis on the stunned condition (and conditions in general). As such, you likely want her in games where you don't have to spread out too much (turf war might be rough with her?). Although maybe you can split her models into 'teams' that cover three parts of the board.

She has Iggy in keyword I believe, who is a fantastic anti-scheme-marker model. In addition, she has 4 soulstone models that can interact, which makes me think she is probably good at scheme-marker heavy pools. I imagine if played well, she will be very good for Reckoning pools where she can force the enemy to come to her with superior scheming power, and then wreck people who enter the bubbles.

Just my intuition. I'm interested in her, but haven't played her.

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I've played against her a few times, so here are my thoughts:

Fundamentally she's a close-in disruption master. She wants to be within 6" of the enemy crew where she can pulse out Stunned, dictate activation order, slow movement. and dare them to attack into her Terrifying 13 and Df/Wp trigger. She may die in the process, but she'll drain so many AP and cards that your opponent should be well behind on points by the time that happens. The big challenge is knowing when to commit her so you don't lose her too fast, but she still has enough time to suck up resources from your opponent.

Her crew as a whole doesn't have amazing stats (aside from Carver and Baby Kade's stat 7 attacks), but most of them can throw out Stunned as a bonus action, and have auras or abilities that punish the opponent for activating near them, or Manipulative to protect them. This plays off the fact that Pandora can dicatate activation order if she gets near enough things. I've had entire turns ruined because she made it impossible to save my beaters that wanted to go after her Manipulative models for last.

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Disclaimer: Just my opinion based on cards, not playing experience (but as she will be my second Master, I have been reading quite a bit about her)

Her creed is very control focused and play foused in states. They should do well in a bubble, but also playing in small groups of models. Misery triggers once per activation (but each model may trigger his own aura at a different time). You'd want at least 2 models in range so the stunned condition may trigger the other model's aura and the specific condition of the active model may trigger its own aura for 2 extra damage per activation. If you also have a Sorrow near, that's 3 extra damage (counting the 2 misery triggers) before the enemy model may do anything. And in close range the crew have also some nasty pulses with the Stunned or Slow condition. Pandora can also get some close range powerhouses like The Carver or Teddy.

Shout out to Pandora's and Carver Oportunistic abilities, those are huge counters versus creeds focused in states. Carver may end a big pile of focus in one model (and can do from range thanks to Glimpse/Breath), and Pandora may end any condition, which is a terrific tech versus some crews (think off Fire elemental stocking Burning or McMourning with a huge pile of Poison). Self-loathing is pretty powerful versus the right targets and speak for itself, and the ability of control the order of activation of enemy models is huge (you may force a beater/master activation early and then take advantage of them if they overcommit early in the turn). Despair's influence is also quite good as it may enable some dangerous triggers, like Carver with a damage track of 4/4/6 or Krade with 3 consecutive executes or Lure + Rip and Tear and Knife + critical strike.

However they lack hypermobility and good ranged damage (self-loathing is good, but it's only in 2 models and as it copy enemy attacks the damage isn't 100% reliable) and their defensive tech it's all about controlling enemies in short range. It's a crew that may create dangerous bubbles that an inteligent advesary would avoid, but it seems a bit hard for them to create oportunities for themselves (outside of Lure, which again can be played around).

She probably struggle versus crews with very mobile models which may bypass the bubbles and go for schemes (or alpha strike before getting controled to death), as well ranged firepower focused crews which may grind her before they enter in the range of their short range auras and abilities. However almost any crew who try to go balls deep into a Pandora's bubble it's probably playing right into her hands and will get destroyed.

I think she would be good in Idols, Turf Wars; and also Reckoning versus the right adversaries (mainly mele focused crews and/or states focused crews)

For schemes: Assassinate and Deliver a Message (versus non-elusive masters), Claim Jump and Harness (park your ass in the middle point and enjoy), Search the Ruins (dependent on the scenography), Take prissioner and Detonate charges (control, control, control) and Vendetta (easy way to deal damage with Missery and control/kill enemies who enter in the bubble)

Not that good: Mobility dependent (Explosives, Breakthrough, Outflank, Power Ritual; doable with Iggy and some OOK model but Pandora doesn't have the mobility to support them when needed, so not her best pool); Dig their graves (no way to generate a lot of scrap/corpse markers), Hold up their forces (they can control well, but tanking 2 enemies of higher cost isn't the best option for these models imo).

All of this is talking inside her keyword of course, going OOK or double master there could also change the strategies.

For example, Dreamer would probably be an amazing second Master for her. He is cheap for a Master (12+1 SS), bring an extra close range aura (Diversion), can summon 2 insidious madnessess (which synergize amazingly well with the crew, and can even be used to tie annoying long ranged focused models by summoning them in their face) and Pandora can include both Carver and Teddy, which may also be supported by the Dreamer (Bad Dreams and Your Nightmare, Cricket bat for reposition them), plus Twist reality could be situationaly good. LCB wouldn't be 100% necessary to include with the Dreamer, but it wouldn't be a bad additon either, he can go to do his thing far away from the crew and then get teleported back.

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1 hour ago, Wyamphri said:

Can't get triggers off of the lure attack unfortunately 

Yep, not in the same action. But after luring (and getting a free attack) Kade will gain fast, so the remaining 2 attacks can get the critical strike.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'd be careful of taking Dreamer in a Pandora crew. He is super card/stone hungry, and you will feel his two summon limit.

His minions also feel lacklustre when you're not using their synergies.

I have still to stress test it. However on paper it looks quite good. Dreamer in the turn 2 pay for himself with the 2 insidious madness. Pandora can bring both Teddy and Carver which works well with her crew and are also nightmare, so he can have 34 SS worth on models to support/use protected if needed. Pandora doesn't have any in key way to give adversary, and as her 2 biggest heavy hitters are also nightmare, that could end working quite nicely. Also dreamer benefice a lot of all of the debuffing capabilities of WOE to avoid being so easily sniped.

And WOE synergies seem to support Insidious madness quite well. Pandora's crew force a ton of WP duels (much more than the dreamer's), feed on fear takes advantage of that. Poltergeist negate ruthless and impose negative to wp duels, that's another big plus as they have terrifying and their attacks are wp based. Pandora Crew may handle a lot of Slow, which combines nicely with the Distracted of Insidious for maximum control. Plus Pandora would benefice a lot from having 2 models to use as cannon fodder (or extra HP for teddy) which may be resumoned, or a way to deliver a model to control an annoying model lurking around the bubble's edge.

I'll try it for sure :)

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I'm curious about why you guys think both master wouldn't work well together. I'm interested in learning well Pandora, it would be great if someone could elaborate about that.

Which "oportunity cost" have for Pandora's crew including the Dreamer? Why 2 Insidious OOK (16 SS) would be better than Dreamer summoning them (13 SS and 1 or 2 cards + 1 or 2 SS for a total worth of 29SS in turn 2)?

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I wouldn't run Insidious with Pandora to begin with but who knows, could be amazing. As for Dreamer, he requires a 11 of masks to summon those, and there's hands where you won't get that mask, so you gotta stone, which happens often with dreamer, in my experience.  After that, you need to make someone fail a wp duel. Probably requiring another high card. 

Let's say it doesn't though, what else does dreamer really bring? A melee attack will get you dead quick. Twist reality is okay, I guess. His best, imo is his Your Nightmare action with its chompy teleport trigger, can't be used.  Then there's his bonus action, which won't do much.  

So that leaves him scheming I guess? With incorporeal, it makes it pretty good.  His main defense besides that however is discarding a card to make an attack hit a friendly Nightmare instead, which there mostly likely won't be many of. He can use soulstones, but I don't think it'd be worth it since he's so weak without a plethora of Nightmares across the board.

Also, stitched are his best summon and it seems a shame not to summon those and it pains me to think about lol 

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It's true the Dreamer would be much more limited than in his own crew, but if he can carry his own weight it'd be enough for me. Honestly, after he summoned his 2 minions, the other team is free to come and try to spank him. They would have to enter in the bubble, and that's exactly what Pandora wants. My summon of choice would be the Insidious for the reasons I stated above, but Styched would also be good tho (he also has feed on fear; but without mass lucid dreaming, it's harder to take advantage of gamble your life). About getting the summons out... woe forces a lot of WP duels (and I mean a lot), and some of them with a quite long range (lure, self-loathing...), pandora has even a long range shockwave WP ability and the box opens is a huge pulse that attacks on WP, plus terrifying or Glypse of insanity... unless the enemy team is avoiding contact at all costs, I can't see an scenario where they don't get summoned

If I included him, I'd also include The Carver, Teddy (+Krade) or both, as they share the nightmare keyword. Aside for summoning, I'd use him as a support for Carver/Teddy + the insidious. Your Nightmare gives Adversary (Nightmare), Focused and may also heals with a trigger; so even without LCB is quite valuable to give more punch to these (think off Carver using 2 or 3 attacks with the double ram plus :+flip, or Teddy using 3 or 4 attacks with a :+flip; and that's without counting the focused); the free action gives shielded and a minor push, which isn't game changing but it feels impactful enough. His mele attack is bad (keeping the summons buried for the extra damage isn't worth it, the trigger may be situationaly useful tho), but twist reality is legit unless you are fighting into cover (in that case then just scheme, focus or use Your nightmare again for an extra focus). This wouldn't be necessary, but the ability to summon 1 minion/turn capping at 2 can also let you use Teddy's consume to kill a model you can summon again; if the other team to try to kill him in 1 activation and fails, Teddy may get healed to full pretty easily. 

He can be a nice bait too; in a woe crew I'd activate him prettly early in the turn. To break serene counterance a focus is usually needed, so he is a hard nut to crack when protected by the debuffing capabilities of Pandora's crew (Pandora or Carver may end the focused condition of any enemy model that get near of him). It could happens that someone manage to bypass the frontline and kill him in 1 activation; however such attack could had killed almost any other woe and The Dreamer leaved behind 2 summons more expensive than himself. Only a very important model of the enemy crew could success an alpha strike like that; and after entering in the bubble, Pandora's crew get a very good oportunity to take that piece out of the ecuation.

He could also go for schemes if needed thanks to incorporeal + 3 AP; with your nightmare he can manifest his own summons, so the enemy crew would need to send more than 1 model to stop him or let him go uncontested (in which case the summons can get used elsewhere). This wouldn't be my first option tho, the Dreamer's lacks self healing making him less than ideal for this. 

And the most important one, aesthetic! The Dreamer looks like Candy's, Iggy's or Krade's brother! Creepy childs need to hang out and have some fun together!

Jokes aside, I'm probably a bit biased because I like Dreamer a lot, so maybe I'm trying to cram him here. However after checking the cards I do think they could work well together; not saying it'd be better than woe alone, but I'm quite sure Nightmare/Woe has its own niche.

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Another thing is that double master feels really strong if your opponent isn't punishing you for it.

But a savvy opponent seeing you play double masters is going to be smashing you in combat those first two turns, as they'll know that you have to use high cards to pull off summons, while they can use high cards to kill your critical pieces.

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I'm definitely not saying it won't work, but I feel like you're trying really hard to cram dreamer with Pandora xD  I've had turns where my opponent failed 0 wp duels. This is malifaux, bad stuff happens. Not saying every game will go bad, but you should plan for it. 

I've played pandora quite a few times, and I just don't know what I'd cut that seems worth it. Candy is an absolute must with her. I always run teddy+kade since he acts as a meat shield for the frail baby.  I'd be interested in seeing it played out though, as I've thought about running dreamer as well, just decided it wasn't worth it. So much can go wrong that you have no way of controlling.

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One have to approach these kind of list with an open mind, it's not a dreamer or a pandora crew; a player can't has his full woe crew and slap the Dreamer on top of that. It's a variant of both styles with its own advantages and dissadvantages. I'd say weaker early and maybe less opressive in close range than a full woe crew, but in exange you get summons as ablative wounds (so higher resilience), a very good support for the mele beaters (which gives them higher damage potential in the best conditions, but it also put a huge target in their heads and requiere extra activations to pull it off), and the possibility to use the summons to tie easily models lurking around the edge of the threat range of the crew (something a Pandora Crew would struggle to do if they can't Lure them).

Yeah, Zoraida is quite good. but both Crews doesn't seem to have that much synergy as with Woe... the card draw would make it less resource intensive and free models are always nice so it might work; I'll check it out. I thought about the other one, Zoraida into Dreamer for both the extra draw and the 1 scrap per turn (thanks to the doll) for extra summoning with WW or Vasilisa.

Haha, yes games can go south, that will happen with standard or wonky comps tho; but if someone doesn't win a single Wp roll with a Pandora crew too often... then it's time to check some sleves lol. And even in that case, if in the next turn the other player miraculously lose not 1, but 2 Wp flips (crazy, I know :P), then both summons can get placed in the same turn. Or if someone decides to spinball and crash his best model into a Pandora crew in turn 1 to take advantage of... maybe having 1 extra high card; well, he can be my guest.

Ty for the comments guys. I'll definitely try this out after learning well both masters, maybe crap maybe a sleeper, who knows.

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Playing in an escalation league now with Pandy, and I've had two games so far, both wins and both scoring max VPs. League started out at 30ss and moves up by 5ss every round. The lists for the first two games are below, and I'll post the subsequent rounds as I complete them.


Game 1 (8-3 win vs Perdita)

Strat was Reckoning. Opponent was returning to Malifaux after a break, played well but probably should've pushed the ranged advantage and damage aspect of his crew harder. MVPs were Candy, who used placed trigger on Glimpse and Corrupted Innocence to great effect, and Serena, who landed a severe damage Tendrils attack with the blast trigger onto Santiago and Perdita.

  • Pandora
  • Poltergeist
  • Candy
  • Serena Bowman
  • Sorrow
  • Sorrow


Game 2 (8-4 win vs Lady Justice)

Strat was Turf War. Opponent has maybe 10 games of Lady J under his belt, had a sound strategy for the game and executed it fairly well. Got Lady J in on my right flank, engaging Poltergeist and whiffing on his lone attack that turn, with Dopple and Pandy nearby (with Pandora activating last and bringing Lady J to half health, scoring the first point for Assassinate). Opponent cheated a 13 for initiative next turn, but Mood Swings was used to force a Guild Steward to go instead, which guided Lady J's fate to the grave over the next two turns (and guaranteed the second point for Assassinate). MVPs were Pandora (massive, massive damage onto Lady J, and a clutch Mood Swings), and Poltergeist due to the negative Wp aura.

  • Pandora
  • Poltergeist
  • Candy
  • Serena Bowman
  • Doppleganger
  • Iggy
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Pandora was by far my favorite master in the last edition of the game -- I always used her summoning upgrade, and she combined high damage, good defenses, and a mobile crew that was able to finish most schemes easily.  I always felt as though she was one of the most powerful choices.

In this edition, she seems decidedly weaker relative to other choices.  Not bad, but not a wrecking ball like she was before.  And, with her crew's reliance on mood swings and stuns, you are forced to play a control game, limiting the other player's choices.  I realize that killing enemies limits your opponent's choices even more, but in my limited experience, players can get more frustrated if they activate a unit and you have to keep reminding them, "Well, you can't declare that trigger, because that dude is stunned," or "Nope, your free action would cost an AP."  I don't know why people would feel more frustrated by having a crippled unit than having it be totally removed from the board and replaced by a corpse, but so it goes.

One weird thing about her kit, that I didn't realize until my most recent game with her, is that models blocking her line of sight and thereby shutting off her pulses really hurts her.  We were playing reckoning, so I brought Pandora (9 stones), Poltergeist, Candy, Carver, Iggy, Teddy w/ Inhuman Reflexes, & Baby Kade.  I was playing against Mei Feng, (Mei w/ counterspell & 5 stones, Emberling, Kang, Rail Golem, Mechanical Porkchop, 3 Railworkers, one of whom had the counterspell + hand size upgrade) who brought over half the crew up in a bubble for Kang to pulse focus to at the beginning of turn 2, so naturally I had Candy stroll right next to the crowd to force discards and stun from Corrupted Innocence (9 stones would surely keep her alive even if she was attacked).  Carver, Poltergeist, and Pandora were there too, although there was a choke point between two bluffs that held Pandora back a bit (since it felt more important to get the Poltergeist close and sap enemies with the 2" willpower aura).

At the start of the second turn, there were five enemies within 6" of Pandora, with four of them on a negative flip for willpower duels because of the Poltergeist, but the 50 mm bases of the Poltergeist, Carver, and an enemy Rail Golem meant that Pandora could only actually see two enemies.  It felt sad to realize that her pulse would always be at its best if she was standing behind the Poltergeist (to use the aura), but that the Poltergeist's chunky 50 mm base would often block enough sight lines that she wouldn't be able to hit big groups of enemies with "The Box Opens."

Of course, maybe this is a foolish strategy to pursue anyway.  The Poltergeist makes everyone else in the crew so much more powerful -- putting enemies on a negative Wp flip is brutal on both offense and defense -- but the Poltergeist is pretty easy to kill.  Someone more cautious than me might have better luck by keeping the Poltergeist safely behind Pandora.  But her lack of engagement range means Pandora is pretty bad at shielding anybody.

I have to say, though -- Candy is an incredibly powerful model.  If you can ensnare people in her aura, she's effectively Armor +2 (since stunned enemies are forced to play into her Disarming trigger), and she can sit wherever she wants while still harassing high-value enemies with her 10" range.  I've learned that I need to scout the table for a centrally-placed high vantage point and then do what I can to get her there.  That way I won't have to curse her for being too short.

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The LoS issues with Pandora are definitely a bit of a PITA, but you can definitely play around it. IMO positioning is way more important for her than many of the other NB masters; you have to be on your game to make sure she's not only safe but able to inflict maximum woe on your opponent (pun intended). She is definitely a control master and has always been, but against crews that bring heavy damage or lots of beaters, she and her crew are capable of inflicting a ton of damage.

Candy's trigger to place in B2B with a model she attacks with Glimpse has won me a couple games. Her ability to get up in their business early and stick around thanks to being able to stone and her built-in defensive trigger makes her way more tanky than you'd think. Once she's in there eating up AP (and cards), the rest of Pandora's crew can put the distraction to great use.

I think using the Poltergeist to great effect is an art. Anyone who has played against Woe knows its a priority target and keeping it alive long enough to really affect the game is often a challenge. Positioning is also key with the geist, and I've used pushes and Lures to help him get into the right places at the right time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Another update from the escalation league I'm in:

 

Game 3 (8-5 win vs Rasputina) - 40SS

 

  • Pandora
  • Poltergeist
  • Hinamatsu
  • Hooded Rider
  • Doppleganger
  • Baby Kade

Strat was Plant the Explosives, and my two schemes were Search the Ruins and Claim Jump. Opponent is an experienced Raspy player from 2E who hasn't played a ton of 3E games yet but is a very good player nonetheless. He usually gives me fits with Raspy so I decided in this game to forgo Woe synergies in favor of fast, hard-hitting models from the Neverborn hiring pool. I also wanted three Lures to keep models away from the Ice Pillar spam, and it worked like a charm. His forces were pretty spread out to get bombs placed (he ran Raspy, Wendigo, Blessed, two Acolytes, two Ice Dancers) and I think that ended up hurting him a bit in the end. Hinamatsu is incredibly strong at 9 SS, as Armor +2, built-in :+flip, Onslaught and Flurry are just so hard to deal with, not to mention being able to burn stones to prevent damage. Hinamatsu took the Blessed off the board in a single activation, leaving my opponent a little dumbfounded. Hooded Rider was also fantastic, with his defensive trigger keeping him alive for two full turns to get his bombs placed and a scheme marker for Search the Ruins as well. I also managed to get the dream situation: Poltergeist engaged with Raspy. At one point she was Stunned, Slowed, had no Ruthless thanks to Poltergeist, and was at :-flip to Wp duels thanks to Poltergeist. She was completely crippled and a sitting duck.

Pandora did some great work with Mood Swings, forcing Raspy to skip her activation two turns in a row in favor of another model in LoS. This ability, when able to be used, can be game-breaking for the Woe crew, and I'm finding I'm being more aggressive with Pandora to be able to get it put into use, when it makes sense to do so. I also found my new favorite Woe combo: Pandora uses Despair's Influence to give Baby Kade a crows trigger for the turn, ensuring his knife attacks gain Execute. Absolutely brutal late in a turn when the opponent is either out of stones or down to one or two cards. Doppleganger did what Doppleganger does best: Lure, Mimic the Poltergeist's Telekinesis ability to clear Ice Pillars, and use Manipulative/Disguised/Don't Mind Me to full effect.

Overall it was a pretty solid game, I probably could've tried to do a bit more denial, but with how fast the Ice Dancers are, and with the Acolytes having From the Shadows, it felt like the right call to try to score max and force him to slow me down vs. the other way around. Cheers to my opponent, and I gotta say, I really feel like Woe is not talked about enough as a top option for NB. The control game is soooooo strong when you pull it off, and I'm finding it's not as difficult as I originally imagined.

Game 4 is in about two weeks, so I'll post more then. Thanks for reading!

 

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