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Keyword power rankings


mattbird

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I agree with how you see the Game, I do wish there was a bit more emphasis I would of liked to see our of keyword be +2 ss not +1, as it is the +1 des very little to change lists and I can see the potential of the same liats with different masters at some point,

 

The versatile models idea is good but some of  them do need looking at too, riders I'm looking at you.

 

I like playing keyword but I Lso have lists with maybe 1 in keyword crews it comes down to how you want to play the game and what fun.  Some keywords also just do better than others which again goes back to using a master with seemingly random models

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On 10/14/2019 at 2:30 PM, Starrius said:

I agree with how you see the Game, I do wish there was a bit more emphasis I would of liked to see our of keyword be +2 ss not +1, as it is the +1 des very little to change lists and I can see the potential of the same liats with different masters at some point,

 

+2 on ook tax will make some masters unplayable at certain level an you could end as in 2nd with the same masters played all the time.

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1 hour ago, longfanz said:

+2 on ook tax will make some masters unplayable at certain level an you could end as in 2nd with the same masters played all the time.

I'm not so sure I've so far have played 28 different masters pretty much all pure keyword and while some may not be ideally suited to some strats at no point have I felt the need to have to search out of keyword for answers

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On 10/14/2019 at 6:30 AM, Starrius said:

I agree with how you see the Game, I do wish there was a bit more emphasis I would of liked to see our of keyword be +2 ss not +1, as it is the +1 des very little to change lists and I can see the potential of the same liats with different masters at some point,

Counter points:

  • Player A takes one out-of-keyword model.  Are they going to care whether the OOC tax is one soulstone or two?  Probably not.
  • A lot of the dual master lists don't care whether the second master has their totem.  Some of the second-master masters like Zoraida just summon their totem for a card discard.

People hire non-versatile out-of-keyword models when the option is better than their in-keyword options, and their keyword mechanisms don't provide enough synergy.  The Versatile models are, presumably, deliberately exempted from the keyword tax so that they'll be taken (or at least considered) in any crew.

If someone is taking a lot of out-of-keyword models, you need to stop and look at the reasons for that.

Are they doing it for fun, or because they find the model combination entertaining?  Then proposing an increase in the OOC tax makes you a joy killer.

Are they doing it because they don't feel that leader is competitive otherwise?  Then proposing an increase in the OOC tax makes you guilty of worse than being a joy killer, it makes you guilty of proposing the wrong solution to the problem, and instead proposing a change which makes that player's game objectively worse without providing them a better alternative.

If there's a crew that's hiring a lot of OOC models because that crew needs those models to be competitive, that's probably a design problem that needs to be addressed as a design problem.  Having the OOC keyword tax allows that to be demonstrated, instead of just being "I wonder why no one ever plays that keyword" situation.

And, probably more importantly, if you can "see the potential for the same lists with different masters at some point", please prove that that's a problem.  Because I expect that a lists that you could produce like that would get listed as "Those are nice lists if you're starting out and can't afford the better, more specialized models for their keywords."  If that's not the case, then it's back to the previous paragraph.

The keyword tax is there to nudge players in a certain direction.  Making it higher would be counter productive.

 

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1 minute ago, solkan said:

Counter points:

  • Player A takes one out-of-keyword model.  Are they going to care whether the OOC tax is one soulstone or two?  Probably not.
  • A lot of the dual master lists don't care whether the second master has their totem.  Some of the second-master masters like Zoraida just summon their totem for a card discard.

People hire non-versatile out-of-keyword models when the option is better than their in-keyword options, and their keyword mechanisms don't provide enough synergy.  The Versatile models are, presumably, deliberately exempted from the keyword tax so that they'll be taken (or at least considered) in any crew.

If someone is taking a lot of out-of-keyword models, you need to stop and look at the reasons for that.

Are they doing it for fun, or because they find the model combination entertaining?  Then proposing an increase in the OOC tax makes you a joy killer.

Are they doing it because they don't feel that leader is competitive otherwise?  Then proposing an increase in the OOC tax makes you guilty of worse than being a joy killer, it makes you guilty of proposing the wrong solution to the problem, and instead proposing a change which makes that player's game objectively worse without providing them a better alternative.

If there's a crew that's hiring a lot of OOC models because that crew needs those models to be competitive, that's probably a design problem that needs to be addressed as a design problem.  Having the OOC keyword tax allows that to be demonstrated, instead of just being "I wonder why no one ever plays that keyword" situation.

And, probably more importantly, if you can "see the potential for the same lists with different masters at some point", please prove that that's a problem.  Because I expect that a lists that you could produce like that would get listed as "Those are nice lists if you're starting out and can't afford the better, more specialized models for their keywords."  If that's not the case, then it's back to the previous paragraph.

The keyword tax is there to nudge players in a certain direction.  Making it higher would be counter productive.

 

I have to say I disagree with you.

 

What keyword do you feel cannot work without using OOK models as an example.

 

It you want to take a model out of keyword that's fine the extra SS imo isnt enough of a tax when a crew is missing lots of keyword models I think that says more about player choices that the mechanic 

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27 minutes ago, solkan said:

 

And, probably more importantly, if you can "see the potential for the same lists with different masters at some point", please prove that that's a problem.  Because I expect that a lists that you could produce like that would get listed as "Those are nice lists if you're starting out and can't afford the better, more specialized models for their keywords."  If that's not the case, then it's back to the previous 

 

If we're talking game wide, 2 SS miners, 2 Arachnid Swarms, the Arcane Emissary, plus upgrades

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  • 4 weeks later...

I ran solo-Asami in a tourney last weekend, and think she's probably more at the top than I previously gave her credit for. The Emissary-powered summoning machine (ditching your hand looking for 13s and red jokers) ended up with me being able to summon 4-5 Jorogumos every game, which really swings the game balance in your favor. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/11/2019 at 9:40 AM, mattbird said:

I ran solo-Asami in a tourney last weekend, and think she's probably more at the top than I previously gave her credit for. The Emissary-powered summoning machine (ditching your hand looking for 13s and red jokers) ended up with me being able to summon 4-5 Jorogumos every game, which really swings the game balance in your favor. 

Interesting. I'm assuming the Emissary was in your core list, what else did you bring every game. Besides the card cycling, what else did the Emissary do for you. Sometimes, I've brought him, and can't anything to work, or feel like the one shockwave I got off affecting a grouping of one or two was underwhelming. Thoughts?

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On 11/19/2019 at 10:23 PM, Forgotten said:

Interesting. I'm assuming the Emissary was in your core list, what else did you bring every game. Besides the card cycling, what else did the Emissary do for you. Sometimes, I've brought him, and can't anything to work, or feel like the one shockwave I got off affecting a grouping of one or two was underwhelming. Thoughts?

the list was: 
Asami
Totem
Emissary
Yasunori
Ama No Zako
Low River Monk
Terracotta Warrior
Tengu

as to the Emissary: yes, just for card draw, fishing for 13s and Red Jokers. I don't think I'd bring it with other masters, but of course YMMV. I think the combo netted me at least 4 Jorogumos in every game I played. 

 

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3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you're digging 12 cards deep, you have about a 73% chance of finding a 13 or red joker that turn. 15 cards could get you to 81%. So you were probably running slightly better than average but not by much.

You can use Ama No Zako to copy the emissary's bonus action. 

So that's a total of 6 + 1 (arcane reservoir) + 2 (soulstone) + 7 (emissary) + 7 (Ama no Zako copying emissary Ama no Zako's Promising Whisper trigger of the Dark Bargain Action used on the Prophecies in Thunder Action of the Emissary). 

Otherwise, there is also the 1 card draw of Minako. 

For a maximum total of 24 cards

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Ama no Zako doesn't copy, it makes the target take an action.... I know, semantics.

But at 1 damage to the Emissary and a flicker to Ama, I wouldn't risk this too often.  pretty much if you have that 28% chance of failure with your initial redrawing.

Great concept though!  Love everyone's contributions!

 

 

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12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you're digging 12 cards deep, you have about a 73% chance of finding a 13 or red joker that turn. 15 cards could get you to 81%. So you were probably running slightly better than average but not by much.

You'd be digging 14 cards deep, as Asami has Arcane Reservoir! :)

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Even better than that!

Only 2 cards have Unnerving Presence:  Ohaguro Bettari & the Masked Agent upgrade.  However, if you search the term...

Screenshot_20191126-054228.thumb.jpg.19e4fd8847ea8ff34c189a6e176029fe.jpg

.... models with Executioner's Claws, Mining Tools, & Gang Weapons are melee attacks that prevent Resistance Triggers from being done in response to them!

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Bisounours said:

Is it known whether Ten Thunders McCabe's hiring pool is basically fixed at this point? Or is he going to have access to Wastrels that might get introduced within the Explorer's Society? Thankfully Ten Thunders has some great Versatile hires but his Keyword seems quite thin at the moment.

I don't think anything is "known". But I fully expect Wyrd to expand their model range as 3e goes along and Explorer's /McCabe could definitely use some of that, moreso than many other factions or keywords.

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We suspect.... no one but the creators know.  But seeing as every other dual faction Master keyword has multiple models in each of the two factions (except Infamous & Chimera with 1 model outside).

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