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Hinamatsu, is she a worthy leader?

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Someone has experience with Hinamatsu as a Leader? She having the Qi and Gong plus the Puppet keyword give access to a ton of models.

Both keywords give access to the Qi and Gong tools (Leverage, Geishas, Kunoichis, Kabuki, Bill, Charm Warder...) while also giving access to Puppets (Armor, Corphee duet, Styches, Mannequins, Bunraku, Widow Weaver...); puppets also give access to Effigies, so this creed could have access to any of the 7 emissaries thanks to Effigy of Fate upgrade.

Hinamatsu with 2 armor, stat 6:+flip, flurry and onslaught could be a decent beater; and she also has some tricks with Lure and the AoE Distracted... but even with 2 armor she isn't at the level of a true Master imo.

I really like some of the models these 2 keyword give access, the duet or Kunoichis seems quite good for example; but the lack of a true master make me dobut about how viable this could be... Is this creed worth it?

Ty in advance!

 

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It's incredible just with puppets. I probably would only use it for Qi and Gong if you wanted to play mind games with your opponents by playing a 10T crew after declaring Neverborn. But Puppets are a highly competetive keyword on their own this edition and Hinamatsu is the best leader for it in a competetive setting since Collodi generally isn't allowed. 

Hinamatsu REALLY benefits from her extra action too. I've been meaning Hinamatsu puppets this edition and it's very strong.

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10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I haven't tested it.

But I was thinking about it recently. It is probably only good if there is a synergy between a Neverborn and Qi Gong model that you couldn't obtain through any master.

There are a a lot of good stuff, these 2 keywords give access to a bunch of high cost/efficient models:

  • Geisha: Cheapest stat 6 lure (which can also give focused to an ally) and Leverage; thanks to Distraction her own attack "Sharp Wit" isn't useless, paper made tho.
  • Coryphee Duet: 4 actions/turn (or 6 if you give it fast), this can be an insane beater or a very fast scheme runner.
  • Mannequin: Put them near of the Coryphee or in groups of 2 or 3 and see how they cross the entire table thanks to Mechanical assisstant without expending AP (plus they have take the hit)
  • Bunraku: The budget scheme runner, Risky maneouver for a push, 2 actions and a focus.
  • Kunoichis: Jack of all trades, some good support abilities (Leverage, tools for the job,  Galvanize and I've got your back, ), some defensive and some combat capabilities in Unexpected Ferocity (this is much better in TT tho) and No Witnessess... for 6 points.
  • Charm Warder: Situational, but versus summoners (Exorcism) or powerful demise abilities is worth it.
  • Styched: Better in Nightmare, but still useful (plus they can be summoned by Vasilisa)
  • Any of the Emissaries of fate in turn 3+
  • ...

All of these plus the ability to make a TTish creed or a full puppet one with high defense and armor (and Vasilisa handling staggered to everyone). Leverage is a very powerful ability, even including 2 or 3 would give that creed a lot of activation control. 

The lack of a Master is the only thing that make me think twice.

6 hours ago, Thedeadclaw said:

It's incredible just with puppets. I probably would only use it for Qi and Gong if you wanted to play mind games with your opponents by playing a 10T crew after declaring Neverborn. But Puppets are a highly competetive keyword on their own this edition and Hinamatsu is the best leader for it in a competetive setting since Collodi generally isn't allowed. 

Hinamatsu REALLY benefits from her extra action too. I've been meaning Hinamatsu puppets this edition and it's very strong.

This is interesting. Which list do you usually play with her and into which creeds/strategy/schemes?

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Okay, keep in mind this is a BASE list and I regularly change things around in it!

Hinamatsu (Leader) (6 SS cache)

2x Coryphee

2x Bunraku

1x Stitches Together

1x Vasilisa

1x Mysterious Effigy (free)

1x Effigy of choice (matchup dependent) (with fate upgrade)

Generally I like having the extra pass tokens from Bunraku, but sometimes I do more stitched. Both are okay schemes but better hitters for me. Usually I don't field wicked dolls since I can just summon them later. I tend not to take more than 6 SS since Hinamatsu is the only one that can use them and she has a lot of stuff built in, but it's nice to be able to protect her and draw extra cards. Coryphee are BIG beaters and do a lot of damage, plus getting the mannequins after they die is nice. Staggered is whatever tbh, but Vasilisa can get you Wicked Dolls and more Stitched once things start dying or against crews that toss around scrap markers like it's nothing. That's the other reason I generally field more Bunraku than Stitched despite the Lucid Dreams ability being pretty powerful for card filtering but only in bigger numbers. Your turn 3 emissary is a silver bullet to kill whatever you're up against and has to be selected for the matchup, but having access to every faction's mechanics on turn 3, depending on what you take, is VERY strong and more than makes up for any perceived weakness with Hinamatsu herself.

Ultimately almost everything you'll hire costs 6SS so it's generally the same number of models, you just have to adjust for the situation.

I've played into every strat but the only one it struggles with is Corrupted Idols. Generally you want Vendetta, Assassinate, or a scheme marker heavy pool to get your best change of scoring 4 for schemes.

Problem crews:

I imagine Seamus is rough for this crew because of his heavy ranged damage from the damn gun. Haven't tested that though.

Perdita is the same way but you just have to use terrain to your advantage and scurry across the board.

Youko is, ironically, really hard for this crew to beat.

This crew tends to outscheme most beaters and outbeat most schemes though, so while it isn't the best at either it has a great versatility that makes it one of my favorite crews this edition ans extremely competitively viable.

Hope that helps! I also haven't touched on Widow Weaver puppets at all, which is also a thing, but fills in a lot of the gaps Hinamatsu puppets has.

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Ty for the insight @Thedeadclaw! It's good to know this leader can work 👌

I'm curious tho. Do you rather 2 coryphees instead of a Duet? The duet hits harder, has more defense, give you an extra activation without giving the other team a pass token, and can have 4 (or even 6!) APs each turn. And after Leverage kicks in, it could be activated after the enemy ends all his activations

Have you tried any lists with Geishas or Kunoichis? Leverage, as you said, is game changing and Tools for the job is great to fish high cards in the discard pile.

2 hours ago, Thedeadclaw said:

I also haven't touched on Widow Weaver puppets at all, which is also a thing, but fills in a lot of the gaps Hinamatsu puppets has.

Is she a legit leader? For the Nightmare keyword the dreamer is amazing, I'm not sure if it's worth trading him and LCB for a coryphee duet...

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Ok in order:

I don't really like default lists for exactly that reason. Coryphee have been more useful than the duet for me against my meta because I'm often facing ~12 models from turn one, so the difference between 3 or 4 starting pass tokens just isn't a big deal to me in those matches. This is just a base list. I prefer taking them separately over the duet because it lets me get more interacts on turn 1/2 before merging. That's why it's in the generic list. There are times I would definitely rather have the duet first.

I don't have a lot of the Qi and Gong keyword yet and really like the puppet mechanics, which is why I haven't aggresively purchased them. I love the Qi and Gong crew, but I'll be rounding out a lot of the ones I already have and waiting for all of its models to be released for 3E before I play with mix and matching them. I expect that Hinamatsu is still oing to mostly take puppets for me even then though, since Youko is just a better leader for Qi and Gong, so outside of tournaments I can't see wanting the Emissary silver bullet badly enough to not take Youko insyesd in casual play. I also prefer to have all constructs so that Vasilisa and Widow Weaver can replace dead models.

Widow Weaver is a bomb too. She's definitely the control master to Hinamatsu's aggro for puppets. Keep in mind she counts as a puppet for hiring, so you're rarely bringing her for the nightmares, although I could see her maybe taking Teddy under certain circumstances. Really the point of her as your leader would be to 1) reinforce Vasilisa against a shooty crew by doubling your possible summons and 2) control the board with web markers and the threat of poison along with her push. Teddy can help you get stuffing but so can the stitched together. It's a list where I'd probably switch the ratio of Bunraku to Stitched and drop the Coryphee altogether if I thought that would be a problem. But I haven't played as much with Widow yet, so that's all the insight I really have there. She's best against crews you need to keep pushed back or crews you can't get close enough to control.

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1 hour ago, Thedeadclaw said:

I don't have a lot of the Qi and Gong keyword yet and really like the puppet mechanics, which is why I haven't aggresively purchased them. I love the Qi and Gong crew, but I'll be rounding out a lot of the ones I already have and waiting for all of its models to be released for 3E before I play with mix and matching them. I expect that Hinamatsu is still oing to mostly take puppets for me even then though, since Youko is just a better leader for Qi and Gong, so outside of tournaments I can't see wanting the Emissary silver bullet badly enough to not take Youko insyesd in casual play. I also prefer to have all constructs so that Vasilisa and Widow Weaver can replace dead models.

I understand, It's all about playstyles.

When I have the models to play Hinamatsu, I'll probably try including at least 1 Kunoichi for schemes far away of the other models/defense... Kunoichis has to be great with Youko handling a lot of Distracted so they can charge in for a 4/5/6 attack, plus Trained Ninja really fit her.

However in a Hinamatsu creed I really think she will be great in a flanking duty taking advantage of the No Witnessess trigger (3/4/5 attack ignoring armor). She isn't as fast as a Bunraku, but versus an isolated targets she can be much more dangerous. In the durability department they are probably tied, Bullet proof + Disguised + Nihilism isn't bad at all. Plus in turn 1 she can give 2 focused with Galvanize in exange for some chip damage that Vasilissa may heal with her free action; and tools for the job is an amazing extra on top of that.

And if there isn't much shooty potential in the other team 1 Geisha could be also a good adition, that leverage and Lure for 4 points seems great to me.

1 hour ago, Thedeadclaw said:

Widow Weaver is a bomb too. She's definitely the control master to Hinamatsu's aggro for puppets. Keep in mind she counts as a puppet for hiring, so you're rarely bringing her for the nightmares, although I could see her maybe taking Teddy under certain circumstances. Really the point of her as your leader would be to 1) reinforce Vasilisa against a shooty crew by doubling your possible summons and 2) control the board with web markers and the threat of poison along with her push. Teddy can help you get stuffing but so can the stitched together. It's a list where I'd probably switch the ratio of Bunraku to Stitched and drop the Coryphee altogether if I thought that would be a problem. But I haven't played as much with Widow yet, so that's all the insight I really have there. She's best against crews you need to keep pushed back or crews you can't get close enough to control.

You have more experience than me so I'll take your word here and give her a shot, but I have to admit that I had ruled her out as a viable leader on paper...

She is fast and can do some shenanigans with placements, terrorize and webs, but she is also quite squishy (any decent beater jumping in his face or any decent shooting crew can easily destroy her). Plus it's hard not to take also a Bandersnatch to set up some extra webs so you can take full advantage of her mobility, and some nightmare muscle to help her get stuffing (a teddy or some stiched would synergize better with the rest) and probably a few daydreams for lucid dreams, that's a lot of SS before starting with the puppets... and the duo Vasilissa/WW is still avaliable to the Dreamer.

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16 hours ago, Ogid said:

I understand, It's all about playstyles.

Oh absolutely. I have ~30 or so games in (post launch) and a lot more in beta with Hinamatsu as a puppet leader, so of course that's what I'll lean towards to argue for her usefulness as a leader. Experience is always worth more than list optimization in this hobby when you look at competetive play, after all. At this point what I can do with a Bunraku because of positional awareness and what nit is just flat out better than what I could do with a new model, at least right now as I'm writing my experiences, and it also srops a scrap marker, so I just value it nire highly.

16 hours ago, Ogid said:

And if there isn't much shooty potential in the other team 1 Geisha could be also a good adition, that leverage and Lure for 4 points seems great to me.

There's quite a bit of lure, 8"+ spells and long range charges, it's just that a lot if shoot crews can take down a puppet or two before you can neutralize that, especially with longer shooters. (Rami, for instance, has a 14" 2/4/5 spread which is just brutal to send a Bunraku into to try to lure.) Generally that's when I'd grab Widow Weaver to muck up the board and prevent schemes to force close range.

16 hours ago, Ogid said:

Plus it's hard not to take also a Bandersnatch to set up some extra webs so you can take full advantage of her mobility, and some nightmare muscle to help her get stuffing (a teddy or some stiched would synergize better with the rest) and probably a few daydreams for lucid dreams, that's a lot of SS before starting with the puppets...

Throw it all out tbh. I could maybe see Bandersnatch but you're not playing WW as a leader to try to play like if Dreamer was the leader. Lucid dreams is nice but doesn't make ir worth taking daydreams. Teddy, like I said, is pretty viable because he's tanky, can block LOS to her, gets her stuffing and drops scrap. And Stitched Together are part of the base list. But for WW my list generally would look like:

Widow Weaver (5SS cache)

Mysterious Effigy (Free)

1x Teddy

1x Vasilisa

1x Wicked Doll

2x Stitched Together

1x Bunraku

1x effigy of choice (with upgrade)

If you reeeeeeeally wanted to you could drop a stitched and the wicked doll from the base list to go to 7SS and take the Bandersnatch, but Widow Weaver isn't really a nightmare crew so much as a puppet crew that has synergies with nightmare models. It's been best for me to treat it like versatile hiring essentially: the model can be good but it'll detract from what you're mechanically built to do as a crew if you rely on it too much. That said, I still prefer Hinamatsu to Widow Weaver in most matchups and strats, I just also think Widow Weaver is very viable for puppets. She's not a dreamer crew though.

16 hours ago, Ogid said:

and the duo Vasilissa/WW is still avaliable to the Dreamer.

Yeah, sure, but Dreamer (as much as I love him) isn't Collodi, and I really like the versatality of the Puppet keyword this edition. People are sleeping on how strong that out of faction emissary is if you can survive 2 turns to get it.

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On 8/26/2019 at 10:29 PM, Ogid said:

When I have the models to play Hinamatsu, I'll probably try including at least 1 Kunoichi for schemes far away of the other models/defense... Kunoichis has to be great with Youko handling a lot of Distracted so they can charge in for a 4/5/6 attack, plus Trained Ninja really fit her.

hinamatsu its only never, you cant put ten thunders upgrades on your models

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22 minutes ago, darksoul281 said:

hinamatsu its only never, you cant put ten thunders upgrades on your models

Ty for the insight, but I knew this one; that's why I said "with Youko" in that phrase. Played as TT being near of Youko, Kunoichis may be decent beaters and (in TT) that upgrade seems amazing for them. However in Neverborn I see a way to take adavantage of their kit (explained bellow the quoted phrase)

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If youre running Hinamatsu or WW as your master then running a summon list is very difficult as you have few resources for scrap markers and the stuffed tokens are not easy to come by.  Drop the stitched and bring the cheap wicked dolls.  You can kill them easily enough with Vasilisa and a beater then summon your stitched if needed. This will free up some points for the Bandersnatch if you like. 

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Looking for good model synergies for this crew I have found this: in the ideal conditions you could get an extra Duet activation thanks to Vasilisa!

For the maximum combo (let's call it, "the dance of death") you'd need: Vasilissa, Candy (and probably a Mannequin for the scheme and to take the hit versus dangerous attacks)

  • Candy put fast in the Coryphee Duet, duet activates and do its thing (3 actions) while it drags the Mannequin, it split at the end of the activation (fast in the unactivated coryphee!)
  • Now a scheme marker near of the 2 coryphees is needed (either the duet interacted or ideally the mannequin dragged does it).
  • Vasilissa uses "pulling the strings" to make the unactivated coryphee dance together and creates an unactivated duet with fast during her activation, using the scheme marker to pay the costs.
  • Duet may now use another 3 actions and split (creating again an unactivated coryphee with fast)
  • Then activate that coryphee, dance together and use another 3 actions.

And that's how you get 9 actions out of a single model during a turn 😄. This has to be a bit hard to pull off and increase the ammount of time the Coryphees are vulnerable before joining again, but it may be awesome! Maybe some bunrakus to get a few pass tokens to do this after all enemy models have been activated may help here...

How viable would this be in a real game?

On 9/5/2019 at 3:55 AM, katadder said:

I have used hinamatsu successfully, she is a really fast hard hitting leader and crew

I missed this one! Could you elaborate? Which models do you usually use? Versus which masters/pools?

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My crew is:

Hinamatsu - Inhuman reflexes
Effigy with upgrade
Coryphee Duet
Rider - Inhuman reflexes
Widow Weaver
Vasilisa

obviously the best strat is reckoning but to be honest the crew is fast enough it can manage alot of schemes and strats.

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15 hours ago, Ogid said:

And that's how you get 9 actions out of a single model during a turn 😄. This has to be a bit hard to pull off and increase the ammount of time the Coryphees are vulnerable before joining again, but it may be awesome! Maybe some bunrakus to get a few pass tokens to do this after all enemy models have been activated may help here...

How viable would this be in a real game?

Super spicy! Would I ever play it in a real game? Absolutely not; way too much work for way too little reward. But very spicy and I'd love to see someone figure out how to make it more viable!! Right now it's too close imo to the whole "I hire all the minions for nightmare and Lucid Dream like crazy so that turn 4.5 all I have in my deck is my red joker" for my liking; vvery cool but not likely to be worth the stones it costs that don't let points get scored.

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15 hours ago, Ogid said:

Looking for good model synergies for this crew I have found this: in the ideal conditions you could get an extra Duet activation thanks to Vasilisa!

For the maximum combo (let's call it, "the dance of death") you'd need: Vasilissa, Candy (and probably a Mannequin for the scheme and to take the hit versus dangerous attacks)

  • Candy put fast in the Coryphee Duet, duet activates and do its thing (3 actions) while it drags the Mannequin, it split at the end of the activation (fast in the unactivated coryphee!)
  • Now a scheme marker near of the 2 coryphees is needed (either the duet interacted or ideally the mannequin dragged does it).
  • Vasilissa uses "pulling the strings" to make the unactivated coryphee dance together and creates an unactivated duet with fast during her activation, using the scheme marker to pay the costs.
  • Duet may now use another 3 actions and split (creating again an unactivated coryphee with fast)
  • Then activate that coryphee, dance together and use another 3 actions.

And that's how you get 9 actions out of a single model during a turn 😄. This has to be a bit hard to pull off and increase the ammount of time the Coryphees are vulnerable before joining again, but it may be awesome! Maybe some bunrakus to get a few pass tokens to do this after all enemy models have been activated may help here...

How viable would this be in a real game?

I missed this one! Could you elaborate? Which models do you usually use? Versus which masters/pools?

The multiple replace rules are a little vague on this.

I think that because one of the models you replace has finished its activation, the duet will count as having finished its activation. The amendment for multiple models is that if the model replaces during its activation then the new model continues the activation.

The rules don't say that if you replace a model that hasn't activated the new model counts as not having activated, but rather if you replace a model that has activated, the new model counts as having activated. So here you are replacing a model that hasn't activated and a model that has, so according to step 7 the duet counts as having activated.

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2 hours ago, Adran said:

The multiple replace rules are a little vague on this.

I think that because one of the models you replace has finished its activation, the duet will count as having finished its activation. The amendment for multiple models is that if the model replaces during its activation then the new model continues the activation.

The rules don't say that if you replace a model that hasn't activated the new model counts as not having activated, but rather if you replace a model that has activated, the new model counts as having activated. So here you are replacing a model that hasn't activated and a model that has, so according to step 7 the duet counts as having activated.

It's true this isn't 100% covered in the rules, but I don't think the replace rules support the above... it doesn't say that if one of the 2 or more models who replace a single model have been activated, the new model is considered activated (in fact the rules are quite generous when 1 model is replaced with more than 1, those extra models are unactivated).

The replace is also done from the pow of the coryphee who perform the action (unactivated), so the replaced model (duet) should "inherit" its unactivated state... but it's true this isn't 100% clear.

I guess this is FAQ material, but as this is quite hard to pull off and can only be done in this Henchman leaded crew, I hope it's how I described. Also in Arcanist there is a more reliable way to get 10 actions out of a Duet during 3 turns, and with a master leaded crew; so it's not like this is something that unique.

2 hours ago, Thedeadclaw said:

Super spicy! Would I ever play it in a real game? Absolutely not; way too much work for way too little reward. But very spicy and I'd love to see someone figure out how to make it more viable!! Right now it's too close imo to the whole "I hire all the minions for nightmare and Lucid Dream like crazy so that turn 4.5 all I have in my deck is my red joker" for my liking; vvery cool but not likely to be worth the stones it costs that don't let points get scored.

Hehe, yeah it's very situational at least. But it could be one of these pocket strategies to surprise an oponent, a bunch extra duet actions out of nowhere could be devastating if the other player fail to acknowledge it. I like odd strategies like this one; if this is legal, I'll keep it in my sleeve 😈

From the AP pow is really efficient. You have to expend 1 action from Candy to get the fast, 1 action from the mannequin to interact and 1 bonus action from Vasilisa (so 2 AP and 1 :ToS-Fast:) and you get 5 duet extra APs (3 from fast and 2 from the extra activation), so you are gaining 3 non-:ToS-Fast: actions doing this.

However it's also hard to pull off because the other player only have to blow up the mannequin to prevent the scheme or at least force the 2 Vasilisa's AP to move and drop it (which would make this trick much less action efficient), displace 1 of the coryphees to make ilegal the dance together or just punish those 3 clumped models with some shockwaves and blasts.

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12 minutes ago, Ogid said:

It's true this isn't 100% covered in the rules, but I don't think the replace rules support the above... it doesn't say that if one of the 2 or more models who replace a single model have been activated, the new model is considered activated (in fact the rules are quite generous when 1 model is replaced with more than 1, those extra models are unactivated).

The replace is also done from the pow of the coryphee who perform the action (unactivated), so the replaced model (duet) should "inherit" its unactivated state... but it's true this isn't 100% clear.

I guess this is FAQ material, but as this is quite hard to pull off and can only be done in this Henchman leaded crew, I hope it's how I described.

Well here are the rules (emphisis mine)

7 -If the original model was Replaced during its Activation, the new model continues the Activation using any remaining Actions. If the original model has already finished its

Activation for the Turn, the new model is also considered to have Activated this Turn.

If multiple models would be Replaced with one model, the new model is placed into base contact with any of the original models. Add the Health of the original

models together for step 2. For step 3, the new model gains the highest value of every Condition on the original models (as well as every Condition without

a value). In step 5, every original model is removed from the game. In step 7, if one of the original models was Replaced during its Activation, the new model

continues that model’s Activation.

 

So all the models being replaced are the original models. So its not done from the point of view of the model performing the action, but from the point of view of all of the original models. In fact none of the replacing is from the point of view of the model performing the action, although some is based on the model currently activating (Which is not the same thing) if that is being replaced.

The rules tell us when the replaced model should count as activated, and they way you do it, with the replace coming outside of an activation, the criteria for the model to be considered to have activated has been met, and no other criteria have been. If they wrote it the other way and said if the original model hasn't activated then the replaced model is not considered to have activated, then it would work as you propose, but we don't look for ways for it to count as not activated, we look to see if its currently activating, and if not then to see if it counts as having activated, and only if neither of those are true does it get to count as unactivated

 

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55 minutes ago, Adran said:

So all the models being replaced are the original models. So its not done from the point of view of the model performing the action, but from the point of view of all of the original models. In fact none of the replacing is from the point of view of the model performing the action, although some is based on the model currently activating (Which is not the same thing) if that is being replaced.

The rules tell us when the replaced model should count as activated, and they way you do it, with the replace coming outside of an activation, the criteria for the model to be considered to have activated has been met, and no other criteria have been. If they wrote it the other way and said if the original model hasn't activated then the replaced model is not considered to have activated, then it would work as you propose, but we don't look for ways for it to count as not activated, we look to see if its currently activating, and if not then to see if it counts as having activated, and only if neither of those are true does it get to count as unactivated

The caveat is that part is only covering when 1 model is replaced by 1 model; so it's not something that may be extrapolated and called a day. The replace rules take in count all the models being replaced for things like conditions or schemes/strategies of course. But for the activation "state" of the model; in every other case is the model performing the action the one who determines the state (replace with ony 1 action left -> get 1 model with 1 action left; replace when it had been activated -> unactivated new model...) and in the replace by multiple models 1 model with 0 AP left who is about to end his activation and is replaced, generate 2 models, one of then unactivated (the least restrictive approach).

It can be argued that in the step 7 the "original model" are the 2 models. One of them already ended his activation, but the other didn't; so they didn't ended their activations for the turn because one of them still need to be activated, hence the condition for consider it activated doesn't meet. <-- This is rules lawyering to make a point. 😉

It might be as you are saying, but it could also be as I'm saying. This is a case that isn't covered and need to be specified with a FAQ.

From a balance pow, in NBV obviously this can only be done in this crew (henchman leaded, so not exactly top notch and without getting access to all the double master shenanigans) and it's very hard to pull off. In Arcanist on the other hand a better version hiring the duet into Hoffman with the rider can be done; there the duet may gain fast thanks to Hoffman (without getting damaged, not like Candy's) and from the turn 3 to the end of the game the duet can get 4 activations each turn (2 with fast, 2 without fast) thanks to the rider. The "counterplay" being killing Hoffman or the rider instead of killing a Mannequin or Vasilissa. So, from a powerlevel point of view it's not something that needs to be prevented for Hinamatsu.

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14 hours ago, Adran said:

Well here are the rules (emphisis mine)

7 -If the original model was Replaced during its Activation, the new model continues the Activation using any remaining Actions. If the original model has already finished its

Activation for the Turn, the new model is also considered to have Activated this Turn.

If multiple models would be Replaced with one model, the new model is placed into base contact with any of the original models. Add the Health of the original

models together for step 2. For step 3, the new model gains the highest value of every Condition on the original models (as well as every Condition without

a value). In step 5, every original model is removed from the game. In step 7, if one of the original models was Replaced during its Activation, the new model

continues that model’s Activation.

 

So all the models being replaced are the original models. So its not done from the point of view of the model performing the action, but from the point of view of all of the original models. In fact none of the replacing is from the point of view of the model performing the action, although some is based on the model currently activating (Which is not the same thing) if that is being replaced.

The rules tell us when the replaced model should count as activated, and they way you do it, with the replace coming outside of an activation, the criteria for the model to be considered to have activated has been met, and no other criteria have been. If they wrote it the other way and said if the original model hasn't activated then the replaced model is not considered to have activated, then it would work as you propose, but we don't look for ways for it to count as not activated, we look to see if its currently activating, and if not then to see if it counts as having activated, and only if neither of those are true does it get to count as unactivated

 

You are almost arguing against yourself with your bold part. It says if the original model has finished its activation for the turn it is considered activated, you bolded that. The original model would be the the model that is doing the action.

Step 7 as you say then allows you to continue the models activation. 

In step 7, if one of the original models was Replaced during its Activation, the new model continues that model’s Activation.

Nowhere does it say that if one of the models had activated then it finishes its activation. It says continue that models activation if this replace happened during a models activation.

This effects more than the coryphee, it effects desolation engines, gamin becoming golems and I am sure there will be more

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3 hours ago, katadder said:

You are almost arguing against yourself with your bold part. It says if the original model has finished its activation for the turn it is considered activated, you bolded that. The original model would be the the model that is doing the action.

The original model is NOT only the model that is performing the replacement effect. Every model that is going to be replaced is " an original model" according to the section on what happens if you replace multiple models to one. 

Edit- the ruling probably matters most for Hamlin and rat kings. 

 

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The Coryphees and gaming becoming golems during their activation cases are clear @katadder, these cases are well covered in the rules.

Here we were discussing what happens if thanks to an obey effect the coryphee is forced to use dance together outside of his activation when there is one activated Coryphee and one incactivated Coryphee. That particular case is not covered, @Adran thinks the new duet would be considered activated, I think it points more towards it would be inactivated (check the reasons we gave above)

This one is up to Wyrd's FAQ team.

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